LGBTQA+ Community

Raki · October 27, 2014

I support this thread, but I really don't like the yaoi/yuri pairings. Why? Because I don't like OOC-ness in general. I always have squint when I go to FF.net because the KaiShin fangirls keep making fics that just... It's not going to happen. >.<

I know right? I mean I'm all about the bromance, but yaoi/yuri are a no-no for me.

Kirsch · December 4, 2014

Just thought I'd share this with you guys:

http://www.queerty.com/dad-accidentally-discovers-his-teenage-son-is-gay-and-handles-it-like-a-real-man-20141117?utm_source=bb82&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=dadsongay

Found it while lurking on DCTP. It's so sweet, and the way the dad handles it... *-*

Metantei Kiddo · December 4, 2014

Just thought I'd share this with you guys:

http://www.queerty.com/dad-accidentally-discovers-his-teenage-son-is-gay-and-handles-it-like-a-real-man-20141117?utm_source=bb82&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=dadsongay

Found it while lurking on DCTP. It's so sweet, and the way the dad handles it... *-*

I'm speechless after reading the article. :|

Anyway, I haven't shared my view on Homosexuals, yet. For me, I'm fine with it but I just don't like being around with them... it just feels awkward, really.

Metantei Kiddo · December 4, 2014

Just thought I'd share this with you guys:

http://www.queerty.com/dad-accidentally-discovers-his-teenage-son-is-gay-and-handles-it-like-a-real-man-20141117?utm_source=bb82&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=dadsongay

Found it while lurking on DCTP. It's so sweet, and the way the dad handles it... *-*

I'm speechless after reading the article. :|

Anyway, I haven't shared my view on Homosexuals, yet. For me, I'm fine with it but I just don't like being around with them... it just feels awkward, really.

phantomlady1101 · December 4, 2014

@ phantomlady1101

I'm like that too! I support this thread, but I really don't like the yaoi/yuri pairings. Why? Because I don't like OOC-ness in general. I always have squint when I go to FF.net because the KaiShin fangirls keep making fics that just... It's not going to happen. >.<

I also don't feel anything when there's a gay proposal video on Youtube or something, but that's just me. I don't like romance in general.

Wow, someone totally understand me *high fives*

A L · December 5, 2014

I saw this ad where a man bursts into a church and then escapes with the groom. Now that folks, is a plot twist.

Kirsch · December 6, 2014

I saw this ad where a man bursts into a church and then escapes with the groom. Now that folks, is a plot twist.

Whoa... What was the commercial for?

A L · December 6, 2014

It was in another language.

Kirsch · December 6, 2014

It was in another language.

Meh... Still want to see it though.

machine · January 7, 2015

Hello! I'm a gray bi-something aromantic asexual. Describing my orientation in full and accurately would take quite a lengthy paragraph to be honest so I'll just leave it at that for now but nonetheless, it's nice to see one of these threads here ^^

hopes · February 19, 2015

so a lot has happened over the last few years!!!

37 states in the US so far have legalized marriage equality since the last time i checked, which is great news!!! only 13 states left to go.

i would also like to bring up the topic of Leelah Alcorn. rest in peace. i think the emphasis on transgender people is very important in this community and we should not erase them.

this also goes for asexual and aromantic people, particularly the latter with the recent date of valentine's day.

any commentary people would like to add? feel free to bring up anything, i would love to get this topic active again!!

machine · February 19, 2015

i would also like to bring up the topic of Leelah Alcorn. rest in peace. i think the emphasis on transgender people is very important in this community and we should not erase them.

I hate to start off on such a tragic note but this is very, very oh so incredibly important. Unfortunately another transgender teen, Zander, has committed suicide. I found out about this recently myself so I don't know too much information but I found this screencap of a facebook post about it along with a memorial blog for him and his personal blog. And to help raise awareness about teenage trans suicide #HisNameWasZander is being used on social media.

Screencap from facebook

Memorial blog

Zander's blog (just as a head's up his suicide note is the second post and it's very hard to read in full and some may want to avoid seeing that)

RIP Zander, Leelah and to all the other unnamed trans lives that succumbed to their toxic environments in the time between these two's passing that went unnoticed.

Now that that's been said, same sex marriage becoming legal in more states is always exciting! Little steps towards equality always save my faith in humanity just a little bit. Seeing all the pictures of gay couples getting married following same sex marriage getting legalized is always really cute too. Especially with the older couples because you can tell just by how bright their expressions are that they've been waiting for that moment for an unnecessarily long time.

As for the aromantics and asexuals on valentines day; I hang out in the aro/ace community a bit and it seems like the majority isn't upset about valentine's day. A lot of the day seemed to be cake jokes and talking about what would be better than going out to crowded places on a weekend all because some commercial holiday is really hyped up. And some aro/ace valentines had been circling around tumblr so we could feel included in the whole thing too which was nice.

My personal favorites were these ones:

If I may add, awareness for other gender identities here aside from just male/female would be nice. Gender, like sexuality, is a spectrum and a good amount of people seem to fall in the in between the two extremes. (gender's also fluid like sexuality and can change with time)

To name a few some nonbinary gender identities are:

Agender - someone having no gender/gender neutral

Androgyne - someone having masculine and feminine traits and identifies as a mix of male/female

Bigender - someone simultaneously having two genders

Gender fluid - switching between two or more genders

Demi-boy/Demi-girl - usually means they feel agender and male or agender and female

EDIT: I remembered a few more commonly used gender identities and wanted to add them as well!

Neutrois - similar to agender, pretty much a synonym for it

Genderqueer - usually refers to someone still figuring out their gender identity and at the very least knows they're nonbinary though it's also an umbrella term for non-cis* people

Trigender - someone simultaneously having three genders

Genderflux - similar to gender fluid, almost a synonym but seems to be used when the switch between genders is more intense than gender fluid

(*Cis is short for cisgender. If you are cisgendered, you identify with the gender you're born with based on your sex.)

There's also a couple more but those are the main ones I see used around other websites.

This topic's pretty important to me because I'm not straight (nor cis though I won't get into that.) and while I was really thrilled to realize there was a term for my lack of interest and desire for a romantic and/or sexual relationship and that I wasn't just weird because I could never contribute to conversations when my friends talked about their crushes, it left a bad taste in my mouth for a while. I felt like I was on the outside looking in because I just can't relate to how highly romantic/sexual relationships are viewed. Hell, the one time I said marriage wasn't my thing to my one parent I was told that because of that I'd never be happy in life (...thanks). The ace community has also helped me out quite a bit. Though they're almost a little too nice at times, it's a very nice place to fall back on and turn to for help when needed and the fact that I had trouble finding a forum specifically for other orientations makes me all the more thankful for it.

I digress, it's just very exciting to think about how by the time our generation is the in control of things it'll be so much more accepting of other sexual orientations and gender identities.

So uh... yeah,, , , ,

hopes · February 19, 2015

Oh my gosh, thank you for bringing this up. This is extremely important, and again, thank you for drawing our attention to it. Rest in peace, Zander.

...

Ahh, yes, I saw those Valentine's too!! I actually sent a few of them to my friends, and my boyfriend gave me an ace one, hehe. They're very nice, and I'm so glad to see that the tumblr community has been raising awareness for the ace/aro/gender communities, rather than solely focusing on only the LG (and only occasionally B ) part.

Thank you very much for putting some explanations about gender there; it's unfortunate that so many people still aren't as familiar with these definitions. I would also be very interested to hear you talk more about your gender identity, if you are open to it!! What pronouns would you like us to use? And I'm very glad to hear that you've discovered these terms. I myself am gray aro and gray ace, being demiromantic and akiobisexual respectively. I only recently found out about the term "akio", and I'm very happy I did!! High five for being aroace buddies!!

machine · February 20, 2015

Oh my gosh, thank you for bringing this up. This is extremely important, and again, thank you for drawing our attention to it. Rest in peace, Zander.

...

Ahh, yes, I saw those Valentine's too!! I actually sent a few of them to my friends, and my boyfriend gave me an ace one, hehe. They're very nice, and I'm so glad to see that the tumblr community has been raising awareness for the ace/aro/gender communities, rather than solely focusing on only the LG (and only occasionally B ) part.

Thank you very much for putting some explanations about gender there; it's unfortunate that so many people still aren't as familiar with these definitions. I would also be very interested to hear you talk more about your gender identity, if you are open to it!! What pronouns would you like us to use? And I'm very glad to hear that you've discovered these terms. I myself am gray aro and gray ace, being demiromantic and akiobisexual respectively. I only recently found out about the term "akio", and I'm very happy I did!! High five for being aroace buddies!!

Yeah as much as tumblr irks me sometimes, it's really good at raising awareness for topics less talked about! Though it does seem to be mainly focused on trans and lesbian/gay stuff it's nice that pan, ace, and bi are acknowledged and that we aren't invalidated by majority of the userbase. (it's also really nice how people are encouraged question their gender identity and sexual orientation!)

As for my gender though, I'm bigender (More specifically androgynous and agender.). I prefer they/them but I don't mind she/her as it's what I'm used to. (I oddly enough prefer male titles like sir and mr. though haha) Some days I feel like an almost perfect split of male and female, other days I fall slightly more on the masculine or feminine side, and other days I feel more like a person than a gender.

It does kinda suck that the majority of the population isn't familiar with other gender identities but after there only being two widely accepted genders for so long, I think them being recognized and not put down completely in some communities is a huge step in the right direction! Hopefully in the future it'll be much more common for people to ask for others' pronouns since gender expression =/= gender identity and that the use of the gender neutral title, Mx, will be more widely used.

Woohoo another aro/ace! And I've heard of the term "akio" before. I'm actually surprised it's not more common

In more detail I'm a gray bi-quioromantic aro/ace. (I know, what a mouthful haha) Quioromantic doesn't have a widely agreed upon definition though most often, and in my case, means that I blur lines between friendship/platonic attraction and romantic attraction. I use aro in addition to this because I know in any future queerplatonic relationships I have or just any like intimate relationships in general I'd obviously be more than platonically attracted to them but not necessarily romantically (or sexually) attracted to them. The bi part's self explanatory and the gray part refers that I don't get that stronger attraction towards any and every person I have platonic attraction to. Because it usually takes a lengthy bit to explain everything in full, I usually stick to aro/ace for the sake of simplicity since it covers the more.. not more important but I know a good part of people probably don't care about my emotional attraction details haha.

Kirsch · February 20, 2015

so a lot has happened over the last few years!!!

37 states in the US so far have legalized marriage equality since the last time i checked, which is great news!!! only 13 states left to go.

i would also like to bring up the topic of Leelah Alcorn. rest in peace. i think the emphasis on transgender people is very important in this community and we should not erase them.

this also goes for asexual and aromantic people, particularly the latter with the recent date of valentine's day.

any commentary people would like to add? feel free to bring up anything, i would love to get this topic active again!!

Oh my god, it really happened. I first saw Leelah's suicide note on Deviantart under the Browse feed, but god I didn't know what it was. Maybe a random Internet person who was going through a hard stage in life, I don't know. I left it at the back of my mind after exiting to do some chores. Realizing just now that I was probably the first person to read that via Deviantart hit me hard. She died. She really did. It's just... So extremely tragic for me to ignore something like that.

Despite the hate the parents are getting, I pity them. I understand their religious and these kind of things to against their beliefs, but I think this tweet summed it up perfectly:

If you decide to bring a child into the world, the very least you can do is love them unconditionally #LeelahAlcorn

The problem with the lack of support these kids get is too large to ignore, but too complex to solve. Nobody can call other people out for their belief, or test every school counselor to see if they're understanding enough to deal with the situation."Therapy" is probably the worst they could do.

RIP Leelah

RIP Zander

Although I don't consider their suicides to be a positive impact on the situation, a shining path of inspiration for others out there, nor a good thing for themselves, it certainly brought attention onto the matter.

On the other hand, 13! It's amazing how things progressed. Let us hope for America to change for the better <3

machine · February 21, 2015

Oh my god, it really happened. I first saw Leelah's suicide note on Deviantart under the Browse feed, but god I didn't know what it was. Maybe a random Internet person who was going through a hard stage in life, I don't know. I left it at the back of my mind after exiting to do some chores. Realizing just now that I was probably the first person to read that via Deviantart hit me hard. She died. She really did. It's just... So extremely tragic for me to ignore something like that.

Despite the hate the parents are getting, I pity them. I understand their religious and these kind of things to against their beliefs, but I think this tweet summed it up perfectly:

The problem with the lack of support these kids get is too large to ignore, but too complex to solve. Nobody can call other people out for their belief, or test every school counselor to see if they're understanding enough to deal with the situation."Therapy" is probably the worst they could do.

RIP Leelah

RIP Zander

Although I don't consider their suicides to be a positive impact on the situation, a shining path of inspiration for others out there, nor a good thing for themselves, it certainly brought attention onto the matter.

On the other hand, 13! It's amazing how things progressed. Let us hope for America to change for the better <3

I pity the parents in the sense that they'd rather have a dead child than a happy, healthy transgender child. I find them more despicable than anything though. Aside from the things the parents were saying to their kids, in Leelah's case at least, not sure if Zander was also put through conversion therapy, they also paid "therapists" to verbally abuse her. I don't mind people who have religious viewpoints, I went through six years of Catholic school, I know religion's not evil, it just bothers me when that's used as a way to make your child feel terrible for coming out to you about who they really are. They're both incredibly brave for coming out at all, I can't imagine what kind of slap in the face it is to be immediately rejected after that. And the fact that both sets parents still misgendered their children after they died is really heartbreaking.

I don't believe Zander expressed any worry about transitioning (if he even planned on transitioning later on) but I also found it really sad Leelah believed she wouldn't be able to successfully transition after age 18 as that's not true. I'm sure it helps to start when you're younger (going through the wrong puberty probably makes what gender dysphoria a trans kid has 10x worse and that's when the secondary sex characteristics kick in) but that doesn't mean you'll look odd if you transition later on. Transitioning's about making yourself happy. I can understand her fear of transitioning later on though as transwomen are often the victims of violence and not passing could potentially put one in a dangerous situation. But that doesn't mean you won't "look the part" if you start hormones later on. Isabella Bennett from Steam Powered Giraffe is a good example of this, she started hormones about a month and a half before turning 29 back in August, and she looks great if I do say so myself.

Society's definitely taking steps toward becoming more trans friendly though there still needs to be a ton improvement. As Leelah stressed in her suicide note, transgender stuff (and just better sex education and LGBT stuff as well) needs to be taught in schools, the earlier the better. Children are in general more accepting than adults so that'll eventually lead to an overall more accepting society and environment for transpeople and it'll help any young trans kids figure out that there's not anything wrong with them. More shelters for trans youth would probably also help so trans teens can get out of their unhealthy home environments and kicked out trans teens will have a safe place to go. There's also the whole public restroom thing with how trans people shouldn't be nervous to use public restrooms. Nobody's ever exactly thrilled about public restrooms but being nervous about using one out of fear that you might be looked at funny, questioned why you're there, get a rude comment directed towards you, or even physically hurt just sounds awful.

As you said, it's not an easy fix. There will always be people who are unaccepting and ignorant that'll want to hold the whole thing back and keep society from progressing to a trans safe place. But at the very least, awareness of what trans people (especially trans youth and their unsupportive, occasionally abusive environments) face on a daily basis is going up and that's helping. It's not going to be an overnight change but slowly but surely it's happening and at the end of the day that's all that matters in my book; that society's progressing and not regressing. Considering how fast same sex marriage is getting legalized and more accepted hopefully protection and support of transgender lives will follow in suit of that c:

I feel like this is just me spouting off my very strong opinions on the matter. I tried to keep this factual in one sense or another but I apologize if this comes off more opinionated than I intended it to

Kirsch · February 22, 2015

I pity the parents in the sense that they'd rather have a dead child than a happy, healthy transgender child. I find them more despicable than anything though. Aside from the things the parents were saying to their kids, in Leelah's case at least, not sure if Zander was also put through conversion therapy, they also paid "therapists" to verbally abuse her. I don't mind people who have religious viewpoints, I went through six years of Catholic school, I know religion's not evil, it just bothers me when that's used as a way to make your child feel terrible for coming out to you about who they really are. They're both incredibly brave for coming out at all, I can't imagine what kind of slap in the face it is to be immediately rejected after that. And the fact that both sets parents still misgendered their children after they died is really heartbreaking.

I don't believe Zander expressed any worry about transitioning (if he even planned on transitioning later on) but I also found it really sad Leelah believed she wouldn't be able to successfully transition after age 18 as that's not true. I'm sure it helps to start when you're younger (going through the wrong puberty probably makes what gender dysphoria a trans kid has 10x worse and that's when the secondary sex characteristics kick in) but that doesn't mean you'll look odd if you transition later on. Transitioning's about making yourself happy. I can understand her fear of transitioning later on though as transwomen are often the victims of violence and not passing could potentially put one in a dangerous situation. But that doesn't mean you won't "look the part" if you start hormones later on. Isabella Bennett from Steam Powered Giraffe is a good example of this, she started hormones about a month and a half before turning 29 back in August, and she looks great if I do say so myself.

Society's definitely taking steps toward becoming more trans friendly though there still needs to be a ton improvement. As Leelah stressed in her suicide note, transgender stuff (and just better sex education and LGBT stuff as well) needs to be taught in schools, the earlier the better. Children are in general more accepting than adults so that'll eventually lead to an overall more accepting society and environment for transpeople and it'll help any young trans kids figure out that there's not anything wrong with them. More shelters for trans youth would probably also help so trans teens can get out of their unhealthy home environments and kicked out trans teens will have a safe place to go. There's also the whole public restroom thing with how trans people shouldn't be nervous to use public restrooms. Nobody's ever exactly thrilled about public restrooms but being nervous about using one out of fear that you might be looked at funny, questioned why you're there, get a rude comment directed towards you, or even physically hurt just sounds awful.

As you said, it's not an easy fix. There will always be people who are unaccepting and ignorant that'll want to hold the whole thing back and keep society from progressing to a trans safe place. But at the very least, awareness of what trans people (especially trans youth and their unsupportive, occasionally abusive environments) face on a daily basis is going up and that's helping. It's not going to be an overnight change but slowly but surely it's happening and at the end of the day that's all that matters in my book; that society's progressing and not regressing. Considering how fast same sex marriage is getting legalized and more accepted hopefully protection and support of transgender lives will follow in suit of that c:

I feel like this is just me spouting off my very strong opinions on the matter. I tried to keep this factual in one sense or another but I apologize if this comes off more opinionated than I intended it to

(I put your essay in a spoiler for the sake of efficiency xD)

I'll have to disagree on what you said about her parents. I am not one bit doubtful that Leelah's parents would prefer a living daughter over a dead son, no matter how much they would recoil at the thought. They loved her until the end, but they also treated her transgender situation as a separate thing. She may be a trans, but they didn't accept it. I don't think they even recognized it as an actual thing. I can't exactly speak for them, but I'm definitely hoping that this world isn't so messed up that even parents can manage to want their own children dead.

Haha, I really want to stay off the religious topic. As an atheist, I'm extremely tempted to say that religion 'distorts' people's view, but I know that's not right. I may be as wrong about the world as any other person with the bias I hold in myself. However, beliefs, often stemming from religion, continues to act as a barrier for a kid coming out. It definitely isn't to say that religion is evil, but it is a big thing in the process of the acceptance of society. As I'm writing this, I'm confusing myself further. I'm reminded of my brother, an atheist who supports gay marriage, but slightly homophobic. So this is really a fight against set beliefs, right? But that'd be enforcing your own belief upon others, which makes you the 'enemy'. Belief vs. Belief fights never turned out so great in history. To force? No, that's too strong of a word. To ease society towards change would be the right course of action, but then you'd go back to the strong roots of religion instilled in a good population of people (again, I really hope I'm not wording it in some offensive way). To not fight, but to ease a belief on an equally set of stubborn people as yourself is quite the daunting and delicate task. ~~I'm literally talking to myself here~~

What do they do in 'therapy', anyway? That's really something I'd like to know. Verbal abuse sounds fitting enough, but what do they say? And what did their sweet talk do to convince the parents that'd the 'treatment' would be effective?

Oh, Steam Powered Giraffe! That's the robotic band you talked about a while back, isn't it? Anyway, I looked through her blog and Youtube channel. Her month-by-month series of how the hormones are working is spectacular. I mean, that change! You'd start off on the 1st day of hormones, where you just see a man talking about stuff. Then fast forward to six months and one day, you would have no idea this very feminine woman is the same person as the one in the previous video. You can see just how happy she is too; a successful transitioning really makes people happy. Also, the last few entries on her blog are written beautifully. Yeah, her writing skills are definitely above par, but you can tell her excitement from it too. She mentioned how flattered she was when she went out to public places, and people didn't even give her a second look. She was finally recognized as who she was. And by the way, that's a cool middle name she chose xD

Ah, I feel that I should correct my last post to "the world", not "America". But definitely! As newer generations are becoming more exposed to the outside world faster via the Internet, it's expected that society will naturally become a more accepting place. I don't know if there are any government-sponsored support programs for trans (and of other sexuality) kids who are tossed out on the streets by their family, but we definitely more if those. Public restrooms is a hard one for me to take a stance on. If you're already through transitioning, than you'd obviously just go where you want to go. But if you're not, then wouldn't it be easier to just go to your biologically-assigned restroom? It saves a lot of explaining, and the facilities are better fitted anyway.

~~aw darn, I don't think I beat you in the longer and more insightful post~~

Metantei Kiddo · February 22, 2015

(I put your essay in a spoiler for the sake of efficiency xD)

I'll have to disagree on what you said about her parents. I am not one bit doubtful that Leelah's parents would prefer a living daughter over a dead son, no matter how much they would recoil at the thought. They loved her until the end, but they also treated her transgender situation as a separate thing. She may be a trans, but they didn't accept it. I don't think they even recognized it as an actual thing. I can't exactly speak for them, but I'm definitely hoping that this world isn't so messed up that even parents can manage to want their own children dead.

Haha, I really want to stay off the religious topic. As an atheist, I'm extremely tempted to say that religion 'distorts' people's view, but I know that's not right. I may be as wrong about the world as any other person with the bias I hold in myself. However, beliefs, often stemming from religion, continues to act as a barrier for a kid coming out. It definitely isn't to say that religion is evil, but it is a big thing in the process of the acceptance of society. As I'm writing this, I'm confusing myself further. I'm reminded of my brother, an atheist who supports gay marriage, but slightly homophobic. So this is really a fight against set beliefs, right? But that'd be enforcing your own belief upon others, which makes you the 'enemy'. Belief vs. Belief fights never turned out so great in history. To force? No, that's too strong of a word. To ease society towards change would be the right course of action, but then you'd go back to the strong roots of religion instilled in a good population of people (again, I really hope I'm not wording it in some offensive way). To not fight, but to ease a belief on an equally set of stubborn people as yourself is quite the daunting and delicate task. ~~I'm literally talking to myself here~~

What do they do in 'therapy', anyway? That's really something I'd like to know. Verbal abuse sounds fitting enough, but what do they say? And what did their sweet talk do to convince the parents that'd the 'treatment' would be effective?

Oh, Steam Powered Giraffe! That's the robotic band you talked about a while back, isn't it? Anyway, I looked through her blog and Youtube channel. Her month-by-month series of how the hormones are working is spectacular. I mean, that change! You'd start off on the 1st day of hormones, where you just see a man talking about stuff. Then fast forward to six months and one day, you would have no idea this very feminine woman is the same person as the one in the previous video. You can see just how happy she is too; a successful transitioning really makes people happy. Also, the last few entries on her blog are written beautifully. Yeah, her writing skills are definitely above par, but you can tell her excitement from it too. She mentioned how flattered she was when she went out to public places, and people didn't even give her a second look. She was finally recognized as who she was. And by the way, that's a cool middle name she chose xD

Ah, I feel that I should correct my last post to "the world", not "America". But definitely! As newer generations are becoming more exposed to the outside world faster via the Internet, it's expected that society will naturally become a more accepting place. I don't know if there are any government-sponsored support programs for trans (and of other sexuality) kids who are tossed out on the streets by their family, but we definitely more if those. Public restrooms is a hard one for me to take a stance on. If you're already through transitioning, than you'd obviously just go where you want to go. But if you're not, then wouldn't it be easier to just go to your biologically-assigned restroom? It saves a lot of explaining, and the facilities are better fitted anyway.

~~aw darn, I don't think I beat you in the longer and more insightful post~~

Since, I ain't an American and I do not know about the news. I'll just go over the stuff. Condolence to the victims, anyways. Justice for them.

WARNING: Contains religion references.

Anyways, I'm gonna pretty much talk about religion thingy in me post since this is where I'm really good at. Honestly, you are pretty much a little right that religious beliefs acts as a barrier for acceptance of trans in society but... nah.

First of all, Non believers themselves are also fallible anti-trans stuffs and they even do worse sometimes. Ever heard of the persecution of the trans by Nazi Germany? Well it was a thing. And pretty much, I never heard a Christian sect ever mass murdering thousands of trans since the beginning of the establishment of the church... Yeah, they condemn them but that's just it.

Second of all, in our modern world, religious beliefs is pretty much meh compared to peer pressure, to what government from respective countries advocates or to what the media says. Gonna say that fewer only really listens to what the priests/religious figures compared to the before times. In our era, Most of the time they brand these people dumb/idiots/unscientific/delusional or stuffs like that and what's worse is that their own kinsman even says these stuffs to them too . Meh, most people branded as 'having a religion' aren't really followers of the religions. They were just baptized as one but they don't really act as one. As an ex-catholic, I know the teachings inside the religion and I know that most of my co-Catholics don't really follow those teachings. Things just go from the right ear out to the left. Plus, Most Christians really have never read the bible... ever. So It's safe to say that most Christians aren't really true Christians. They just identify themselves as ones coz as I said, they were baptized in it.

And lastly, a bit off topic but anyways, the stance of the Christians denoms against Trans are really unscriptural. The bible was pretty much vague pertaining to this topic. It's not clearly stated that trans should be condemned. So, honestly, most of the teachings against it are all made up and hyped by the pastors/religious figures. They kinda use their place on religion to make their accusations. So if you're gonna blame something, blame the individual not the whole religion itself.

I'm not trying to defend any religion here but saying outright that it's mostly the fault of the teachings of the religion is outright wrong for me.

And, I'll admit that I'm a bit homophobic too... and honestly, I think most guys also feels these way but they won't just admit it. My homophobia doesn't stem from my religious view.... It's kinda of an unexplainable thingy that I just find gays just irritating sometimes. I hope I don't get some hates here coz of this

Anyways, next time you meet an anti-gay person, ask that person why he/she thinks that way. I pretty much can tell you that most of it aren't becoz of their religious beliefs. It's most likely coz of some vague reasons too.

Haha, I also really hope that the world will be a more accepting to not just trans but to all people that are wrongly persecuted but anyways, humans are humans. We'll always find a way to destabilize peace and order. There's always gotta be a group of person that will find their self not getting equal treatment, no matter what we do. It stems from human instincts of just wanting more once we get something we want. We never really get contented on the thing we deserve. I kinda fear that once gay rights are imposed, well after sometime, they'll just ask for more and more rights that will just put the other genders feeling that they don't get the same treatment. In that way, the cycle will just repeat over and over again.

Edited February 23, 2015 by MK the Great

machine · February 22, 2015

~~this took way too long to type ohmgody~~

I'd also like to add in case I piqued anyone's curiosity or if anyone would just like more information on trans stuff: this blog, has a ton of information on it and unlike some LGBT blogs on tumblr, it doesn't shame cis and straight people (yes those blogs do exist) nor put down people who are questioning. I personally don't agree with some of the stuff they advocate (I guess I can elaborate if asked????) but majority of the content's pretty good so uh... there ya go, , , ,

(under spoiler in attempt to make post less long)

And here's some more terminology because I use some of these terms a lot, and abbreviations are just easier to use:

pre T - pre transition for trans people, means they haven't started hormones yet and nor sex reassignment surgery if they even plan on having surgery later on

Gender dysphoria - being uncomfortable with how your body is based on your sex and/or being uncomfortable with how you are perceived based on your sex. It also refers to any disconnect you might have between what gender you feel you are despite what sex you might physically be. Some say dysphoria is required to be trans, others say it's not needed (I don't have a particular stance on this so take this as you will)

FTM - female to male

MTF - male to female

AFAB - assigned female at birth

AMAB - assigned male at birth

Please note that some nonbinary people may take actions to make their appearance more gender neutral or androgynous though not all do nor are they required to to make their gender identities valid

Also, if anyone later gets or already has queer friends, don't out them or question them if they act straight/cis around their parents or in public. (if acting cis, use appropriate pronouns) It can put them in a dangerous spot and they might not be out to their parents for one reason or another.

It's important and it might easily slip your mind

And just for good measure, don't assume you're straight and/or cis. Those things are fluid and might change over time, however you feel/identify at the time is valid even if you don't feel the same tomorrow, next month, or even next year. It's also ok to just not know though not knowing can feel... just not good. There are people out there who are 100% straight / 100% gay and/or 100% cis, but just don't assume it's impossible for you to fall somewhere in the middle.

~~okey dokey i'm done now~~

(I put your essay in a spoiler for the sake of efficiency xD)

I'll have to disagree on what you said about her parents. I am not one bit doubtful that Leelah's parents would prefer a living daughter over a dead son, no matter how much they would recoil at the thought. They loved her until the end, but they also treated her transgender situation as a separate thing. She may be a trans, but they didn't accept it. I don't think they even recognized it as an actual thing. I can't exactly speak for them, but I'm definitely hoping that this world isn't so messed up that even parents can manage to want their own children dead.

Haha, I really want to stay off the religious topic. As an atheist, I'm extremely tempted to say that religion 'distorts' people's view, but I know that's not right. I may be as wrong about the world as any other person with the bias I hold in myself. However, beliefs, often stemming from religion, continues to act as a barrier for a kid coming out. It definitely isn't to say that religion is evil, but it is a big thing in the process of the acceptance of society. As I'm writing this, I'm confusing myself further. I'm reminded of my brother, an atheist who supports gay marriage, but slightly homophobic. So this is really a fight against set beliefs, right? But that'd be enforcing your own belief upon others, which makes you the 'enemy'. Belief vs. Belief fights never turned out so great in history. To force? No, that's too strong of a word. To ease society towards change would be the right course of action, but then you'd go back to the strong roots of religion instilled in a good population of people (again, I really hope I'm not wording it in some offensive way). To not fight, but to ease a belief on an equally set of stubborn people as yourself is quite the daunting and delicate task. ~~I'm literally talking to myself here~~

What do they do in 'therapy', anyway? That's really something I'd like to know. Verbal abuse sounds fitting enough, but what do they say? And what did their sweet talk do to convince the parents that'd the 'treatment' would be effective?

Oh, Steam Powered Giraffe! That's the robotic band you talked about a while back, isn't it? Anyway, I looked through her blog and Youtube channel. Her month-by-month series of how the hormones are working is spectacular. I mean, that change! You'd start off on the 1st day of hormones, where you just see a man talking about stuff. Then fast forward to six months and one day, you would have no idea this very feminine woman is the same person as the one in the previous video. You can see just how happy she is too; a successful transitioning really makes people happy. Also, the last few entries on her blog are written beautifully. Yeah, her writing skills are definitely above par, but you can tell her excitement from it too. She mentioned how flattered she was when she went out to public places, and people didn't even give her a second look. She was finally recognized as who she was. And by the way, that's a cool middle name she chose xD

Ah, I feel that I should correct my last post to "the world", not "America". But definitely! As newer generations are becoming more exposed to the outside world faster via the Internet, it's expected that society will naturally become a more accepting place. I don't know if there are any government-sponsored support programs for trans (and of other sexuality) kids who are tossed out on the streets by their family, but we definitely more if those. Public restrooms is a hard one for me to take a stance on. If you're already through transitioning, than you'd obviously just go where you want to go. But if you're not, then wouldn't it be easier to just go to your biologically-assigned restroom? It saves a lot of explaining, and the facilities are better fitted anyway.

~~aw darn, I don't think I beat you in the longer and more insightful post~~

I couldn't find what they do in trans conversion therapy (in Leelah's suicide note though she said she was repeatedly told she was selfish, wrong, and going to hell though) I did however find a video on what one guy went through in gay conversion therapy.

I'm guessing most people who put their children in conversion therapy just don't know what they're getting into. It sounds like they're put into the "therapy" as they don't want their children to be... I know there's a more fitting word for it I just can't think of it but they don't want their kid to be gay/trans because they view it as wrong. They might view it as a phase or a choice and like a rebellious thing and think maybe if we just harm them they'll snap out of it and go back to "normal"/being het. They sound like they want the best for their children and that's why they do it instead of realizing (and later accepting) that having a gay/trans child isn't a bad thing--and it most certainly wasn't an effect of their faulty parenting (hitting your kid because they are gay is, without needing to be said, abusive parenting, but giving your son "too many hugs" or allowing your daughter to be closer to her dad than her mom was/is not)

And as much as I loathe buzzfeed, it's the only short video I could find about the trans bathroom thing

The telling people to use whichever bathroom they biologically are makes it complicated for pre-t trans folk who might still have prominent secondary sex characteristics but are presenting as their actual/true gender (either bathroom they choose might have negative repercussions) and intersex people. As for the more fitting part both have stalls so that doesn't really apply (and to get more technical, AFAB's can even buy... devices(? I don't know what to call them tbh...) so they can pee standing up. I don't quite know how many people do that regularly/would be interested in doing that regularly and risk getting UTI's enough to buy those though)

If by better suited you mean like periods though (tmi warning????? maybe????? I figure anyone who's keeping up with this topic probably knows what they're getting into but in case you're uncomfortable with that stuff just skip to the next paragraph) but as that week seems to up gender dysphoria for AFAB trans people in general (it's basically just a slap in the face for a couple days), they might avoid going out in public that's more than necessary (especially if using public restrooms is already a little stressful). There's also like birth control and stuff which can make those less frequent. And I heard that when transboys/transmen/FTM's start hormones, periods stopping is one of the first things that happens.

Yeah I talked about SPG a little bit about a month ago I know, it's amazing just how bubbly she got over the course of starting hormones to where she is now! I think it's really brave of her to share her whole experience with hormones and living as a transgender person in general as that's a very personal thing y'know? And the fact that she changed her SPG persona to also being female is cool too (Her persona in SPG was originally a guy robot who went by Rabbit. Now she plays the robot as a girl named Bunny) especially since her singing voice will still be quite deep. Since SPG's said they want to stay family friendly considering that there might be unknowing and potentially judgemental kids watching their shows that's really respectable imo.

As for the religion/belief part you touched on, ~~I'm also an atheist so I hope I don't word this poorly either.~~ (MK went into this a little as well) I think maybe religion is viewed as the main source of homophobia because of stuff like conversion therapy and the whole "buT THE BIBLE SAYS---" spiel. I'm guessing a lot of homophobia is just how LGBT stuff wasn't really talked about--gay couples showing affection in public wasn't a thing either, and now that it's prevalent it might be hard for some to swallow and uncomfortable to see. It certainly can be a lot to take in at once especially if you were sheltered and then suddenly "wHOA there's more than two genders?!? people can love people of the same gender?!?!? you can be something other than gay or straight--or even not feel attraction all together? no, , ,that's not a thing. Everyone wants to be in a relationship. Trust me on this I watched an episode of Glee once at my cousin's house. What do you mean you're pansexual? You're attracted to kitchen equipment?? Bisexuals are so greedy, and whichever significant other they choose proves their real orientation. What do you mean romantic and sexual attraction are different?" There's also the whole "what if the gay kid in my class has a crush on me and watches me when we change before and after P.E." thing.

It really is just a ton of information, and if you have no interest in learning about--or didn't even know it was a thing, having it all thrust upon you and being expected to be familiar with it is incredibly overwhelming. Awareness about LGBT issues helps a ton but for the more ingrained things, only time will help those. I think there will always be a slight stigma just because people are generally uneasy about things that are different (and there will undoubtedly always be that person using their religious beliefs to be an a--hole)

And if I can go back to Zander and Leelah for a second, I think it shows progress that society as a whole is making because Zander and Leelah weren't bullied by their peers for being trans. (if they were bullied it wasn't mentioned in their suicide notes at least, I don't see why they wouldn't have mentioned it if it had been something they experienced.)

Since, I ain't an American and I do not know about the news. I'll just go over the stuff. Condolence to the victims, anyways. Justice for them.

Anyways, I'm gonna pretty much talk about religion thingy in me post since this is where I'm really good at. Honestly, you are pretty much a little right that religious beliefs acts as a barrier for acceptance of trans in society but... nah.

First of all, Non believers themselves are also fallible anti-trans stuffs and they even do worse sometimes. Ever heard of the persecution of the trans by Nazi Germany? Well it was a thing. And pretty much, I never heard a Christian sect ever mass murdering thousands of trans since the beginning of the establishment of the church... Yeah, they condemn them but that's just it.

Second of all, in our modern world, religious beliefs is pretty much meh compared to peer pressure, to what government from respective countries advocates or to what the media says. Gonna say that fewer only really listens to what the priests/religious figures compared to the before times. In our era, Most of the time they brand these people dumb/idiots/unscientific/delusional or stuffs like that and what's worse is that their own kinsman even says these stuffs to them too . Meh, most people branded as 'having a religion' aren't really followers of the religions. They were just baptized as one but they don't really act as one. As an ex-catholic, I know the teachings inside the religion and I know that most of my co-Catholics don't really follow those teachings. Things just go from the right ear out to the left. Plus, Most Christians really have never read the bible... ever. So It's safe to say that most Christians aren't really true Christians. They just identify themselves as ones coz as I said, they were baptized in it.

And lastly, a bit off topic but anyways, the stance of the Christians denoms against Trans are really unscriptural. The bible was pretty much vague pertaining to this topic. It's not clearly stated that trans should be condemned. So, honestly, most of the teachings against it are all made up and hyped by the pastors/religious figures. They kinda use their place on religion to make their accusations. So if you're gonna blame something, blame the individual not the whole religion itself.

I'm not trying to defend any religion here but saying outright that it's mostly the fault of the teachings of the religion is outright wrong for me.

And, I'll admit that I'm a bit homophobic too... and honestly, I think most guys also feels these way but they won't just admit it. My homophobia doesn't stem from my religious view.... It's kinda of an unexplainable thingy that I just find gays just irritating sometimes. I hope I don't get some hates here coz of this

Anyways, next time you meet an anti-gay person, ask that person why he/she thinks that way. I pretty much can tell you that most of it aren't becoz of their religious beliefs. It's most likely coz of some vague reasons too.

Haha, I also really hope that the world will be a more accepting to not just trans but to all people that are wrongly persecuted but anyways, humans are humans. We'll always find a way to destabilize peace and order. There's always gotta be a group of person that will find their self not getting equal treatment, no matter what we do. It stems from human instincts of just wanting more once we get something we want. We never really get contented on the thing we deserve. I kinda fear that once gay rights are imposed, well after sometime, they'll just ask for more and more rights that will just put the other genders feeling that they don't get the same treatment. In that way, the cycle will just repeat over and over again.

Majority of what I wanted to respond to this with I put in the last paragraph and a half of my response to Kirsch. (I also agree with a good part of the stuff you said so I don't have much to add)

Is the part about guys feeling slightly homophobic thing in reference to how like guy friends aren't as physically affectionate with each other whereas girls that are friends with other girls don't have as much of a problem with that? (ex: hugging when they see each other, girls holding hands with each other without hesitance in public when ice skating or something) Don't think I'm trying to use this to later respond rudely, I'm just genuinely curious as like subtle homophobia isn't discussed as often and I'm not as aware of it. And is the irritating part due to the like flamboyant stereotype and maybe some of the like... just how loud some people are about LGBT pride and stuff? I also don't blame with the worrying about LGBT people going for more than equal rights. Considering how some parts of tumblr were acting a couple months ago... As said previously though, I think there'll always be a slight stigma but I'm sure some will aim for more rights than needed (for lack of a better word)

THIS WAS MUCH LONGER THAN I INTENDED IT TO BE I AM SORRY AND I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY GRAMMATICAL/SPELLING ERRORS I TOOK MANY BREAKS IN BETWEEN WRITING THIS ALONG WITH GOING BACK AND REVISING THIS NUMEROUS TIMES SO IM SURE I ACCIDENTALLY MISSED SOME MISTAKES

Metantei Kiddo · February 22, 2015

~~this took way too long to type ohmgody~~

I'd also like to add in case I piqued anyone's curiosity or if anyone would just like more information on trans stuff: this blog, has a ton of information on it and unlike some LGBT blogs on tumblr, it doesn't shame cis and straight people (yes those blogs do exist) nor put down people who are questioning. I personally don't agree with some of the stuff they advocate (I guess I can elaborate if asked????) but majority of the content's pretty good so uh... there ya go, , , ,

(under spoiler in attempt to make post less long)

And here's some more terminology because I use some of these terms a lot, and abbreviations are just easier to use:

pre T - pre transition for trans people, means they haven't started hormones yet and nor sex reassignment surgery if they even plan on having surgery later on

Gender dysphoria - being uncomfortable with how your body is based on your sex and/or being uncomfortable with how you are perceived based on your sex. It also refers to any disconnect you might have between what gender you feel you are despite what sex you might physically be. Some say dysphoria is required to be trans, others say it's not needed (I don't have a particular stance on this so take this as you will)

FTM - female to male

MTF - male to female

AFAB - assigned female at birth

AMAB - assigned male at birth

Please note that some nonbinary people may take actions to make their appearance more gender neutral or androgynous though not all do nor are they required to to make their gender identities valid

Also, if anyone later gets or already has queer friends, don't out them or question them if they act straight/cis around their parents or in public. (if acting cis, use appropriate pronouns) It can put them in a dangerous spot and they might not be out to their parents for one reason or another.

It's important and it might easily slip your mind

And just for good measure, don't assume you're straight and/or cis. Those things are fluid and might change over time, however you feel/identify at the time is valid even if you don't feel the same tomorrow, next month, or even next year. It's also ok to just not know though not knowing can feel... just not good. There are people out there who are 100% straight / 100% gay and/or 100% cis, but just don't assume it's impossible for you to fall somewhere in the middle.

~~okey dokey i'm done now~~

I couldn't find what they do in trans conversion therapy (in Leelah's suicide note though she said she was repeatedly told she was selfish, wrong, and going to hell though) I did however find a video on what one guy went through in gay conversion therapy.

I'm guessing most people who put their children in conversion therapy just don't know what they're getting into. It sounds like they're put into the "therapy" as they don't want their children to be... I know there's a more fitting word for it I just can't think of it but they don't want their kid to be gay/trans because they view it as wrong. They might view it as a phase or a choice and like a rebellious thing and think maybe if we just harm them they'll snap out of it and go back to "normal"/being het. They sound like they want the best for their children and that's why they do it instead of realizing (and later accepting) that having a gay/trans child isn't a bad thing--and it most certainly wasn't an effect of their faulty parenting (hitting your kid because they are gay is, without needing to be said, abusive parenting, but giving your son "too many hugs" or allowing your daughter to be closer to her dad than her mom was/is not)

And as much as I loathe buzzfeed, it's the only short video I could find about the trans bathroom thing

The telling people to use whichever bathroom they biologically are makes it complicated for pre-t trans folk who might still have prominent secondary sex characteristics but are presenting as their actual/true gender (either bathroom they choose might have negative repercussions) and intersex people. As for the more fitting part both have stalls so that doesn't really apply (and to get more technical, AFAB's can even buy... devices(? I don't know what to call them tbh...) so they can pee standing up. I don't quite know how many people do that regularly/would be interested in doing that regularly and risk getting UTI's enough to buy those though)

If by better suited you mean like periods though (tmi warning????? maybe????? I figure anyone who's keeping up with this topic probably knows what they're getting into but in case you're uncomfortable with that stuff just skip to the next paragraph) but as that week seems to up gender dysphoria for AFAB trans people in general (it's basically just a slap in the face for a couple days), they might avoid going out in public that's more than necessary (especially if using public restrooms is already a little stressful). There's also like birth control and stuff which can make those less frequent. And I heard that when transboys/transmen/FTM's start hormones, periods stopping is one of the first things that happens.

Yeah I talked about SPG a little bit about a month ago I know, it's amazing just how bubbly she got over the course of starting hormones to where she is now! I think it's really brave of her to share her whole experience with hormones and living as a transgender person in general as that's a very personal thing y'know? And the fact that she changed her SPG persona to also being female is cool too (Her persona in SPG was originally a guy robot who went by Rabbit. Now she plays the robot as a girl named Bunny) especially since her singing voice will still be quite deep. Since SPG's said they want to stay family friendly considering that there might be unknowing and potentially judgemental kids watching their shows that's really respectable imo.

As for the religion/belief part you touched on, ~~I'm also an atheist so I hope I don't word this poorly either.~~ (MK went into this a little as well) I think maybe religion is viewed as the main source of homophobia because of stuff like conversion therapy and the whole "buT THE BIBLE SAYS---" spiel. I'm guessing a lot of homophobia is just how LGBT stuff wasn't really talked about--gay couples showing affection in public wasn't a thing either, and now that it's prevalent it might be hard for some to swallow and uncomfortable to see. It certainly can be a lot to take in at once especially if you were sheltered and then suddenly "wHOA there's more than two genders?!? people can love people of the same gender?!?!? you can be something other than gay or straight--or even not feel attraction all together? no, , ,that's not a thing. Everyone wants to be in a relationship. Trust me on this I watched an episode of Glee once at my cousin's house. What do you mean you're pansexual? You're attracted to kitchen equipment?? Bisexuals are so greedy, and whichever significant other they choose proves their real orientation. What do you mean romantic and sexual attraction are different?" There's also the whole "what if the gay kid in my class has a crush on me and watches me when we change before and after P.E." thing.

It really is just a ton of information, and if you have no interest in learning about--or didn't even know it was a thing, having it all thrust upon you and being expected to be familiar with it is incredibly overwhelming. Awareness about LGBT issues helps a ton but for the more ingrained things, only time will help those. I think there will always be a slight stigma just because people are generally uneasy about things that are different (and there will undoubtedly always be that person using their religious beliefs to be an a--hole)

And if I can go back to Zander and Leelah for a second, I think it shows progress that society as a whole is making because Zander and Leelah weren't bullied by their peers for being trans. (if they were bullied it wasn't mentioned in their suicide notes at least, I don't see why they wouldn't have mentioned it if it had been something they experienced.)

Majority of what I wanted to respond to this with I put in the last paragraph and a half of my response to Kirsch. (I also agree with a good part of the stuff you said so I don't have much to add)

Is the part about guys feeling slightly homophobic thing in reference to how like guy friends aren't as physically affectionate with each other whereas girls that are friends with other girls don't have as much of a problem with that? (ex: hugging when they see each other, girls holding hands with each other without hesitance in public when ice skating or something) Don't think I'm trying to use this to later respond rudely, I'm just genuinely curious as like subtle homophobia isn't discussed as often and I'm not as aware of it. And is the irritating part due to the like flamboyant stereotype and maybe some of the like... just how loud some people are about LGBT pride and stuff? I also don't blame with the worrying about LGBT people going for more than equal rights. Considering how some parts of tumblr were acting a couple months ago... As said previously though, I think there'll always be a slight stigma but I'm sure some will aim for more rights than needed (for lack of a better word)

THIS WAS MUCH LONGER THAN I INTENDED IT TO BE I AM SORRY AND I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY GRAMMATICAL/SPELLING ERRORS I TOOK MANY BREAKS IN BETWEEN WRITING THIS ALONG WITH GOING BACK AND REVISING THIS NUMEROUS TIMES SO IM SURE I ACCIDENTALLY MISSED SOME MISTAKES

WARNING: Contains religion references.

I went fully to the religion thingy not just a little. I pretty much see that it's always the religion that gets the blame when it comes to these stuffs when in reality, nope... they aren't really the root of this problem. Okay, yeah, they had a share of fault of where we currently stand but honestly, since the beginning of ages even before these major religions existed, the notion of trans-sexuality were already considered a taboo. I think everything really began with our human ancestors than anything which just got passed orally till it was instilled to our minds reaching us in this era.

Haha, it's funny that at my country where I live in, gays are culturally accepted though we are a Catholic nation. Kind of paradoxical, ne?

Anyways, it's more of how society instilled guys with the norms of like... guys should not be to touchy to another guy etc. etc. Cannot blame us really... in this. The irritating part is based from my experiences being around trans. I met a lot of gays who are just flirty, over girly in their style and movement which is I find irritating. I dunno why I find it like that but I think it's more of becoz of rarity in sight of these kind of stuffs. Probably, the best solution for people who thinks like me in this way is putting us around more gay people who acts like these so that we get used to it. Yup also, part of it is the LGBT pride thingy. No need to really go on a parade and do stuffs stuffs. I really admire those gays who admits they are trans but lives their gay life privately and they have a separate life other than promoting Gay rights or talking about their Gay life. Not being rude just being plain honest, most trans that I met centers their life on trans stuff.

Nya... the wanting more thingy doesn't just apply on trans stuffs. It also applies to every human and human groups. So nah... it isn't a full blown strike to the knee against LGBT.

Anyways, Gays, in how I used it in context means LGBT, not just gay man.

Edited February 23, 2015 by MK the Great

machine · February 22, 2015

I went fully to the religion thingy not just a little. I pretty much see that it's always the religion that gets the blame when it comes to these stuffs when in reality, nope... they aren't really the root of this problem. Okay, yeah, they had a share of fault of where we currently stand but honestly, since the beginning of ages even before these major religions existed, the notion of trans-sexuality were already considered a taboo. I think everything really began with our human ancestors than anything which just got passed orally till it was instilled to our minds reaching us in this era.

Haha, it's funny that at my country where I live in, gays are culturally accepted though we are a Catholic nation. Kind of paradoxical, ne?

Anyways, it's more of how society instilled guys with the norms of like... guys should not be to touchy to another guy etc. etc. Cannot blame us really... in this. The irritating part is based from my experiences being around trans. I met a lot of gays who are just flirty, over girly in their style and movement which is I find irritating. I dunno why I find it like that but I think it's more of becoz of rarity in sight of these kind of stuffs. Probably, the best solution for people who thinks like me in this way is putting us around more gay people who acts like these so that we get used to it. Yup also, part of it is the LGBT pride thingy. No need to really go on a parade and do stuffs stuffs. I really admire those gays who admits they are trans but lives their gay life privately and they have a separate life other than promoting Gay rights or talking about their Gay life. Not being rude just being plain honest, most trans that I met centers their life on trans stuff.

Nya... the wanting more thingy doesn't just apply on trans stuffs. It also applies to every human and human groups. So nah... it isn't a full blown strike to the knee against LGBT.

Anyways, Gays, in how I used it in context means LGBT, not just gay man.

(thanks for the clarifying on the last bit btw)

...I don't even know if trans people were like a thing hundreds of years ago. I don't mean that it's a recent thing but humanity's understanding of psychology wasn't good back then and from what I understand, gender wasn't as much of a thing back then. Like you had a biological sex and that was it. It determined if you were the one to give birth to the children or if you were the head of the household. It didn't matter if you didn't exactly feel that role fit you, that's the way things were, no exceptions.

I mean I'm sure gender was a thing then but it was probably directly tied to what you physically were and now it's known to be something separate and... it's not a state of mind but it's how you view yourself. I just don't know if that's something that was like thought about back when electricity and plumbing weren't everyday things haha. ~~I'm completely spit balling on this so I have no idea if that holds any truth at all so take that with a grain of salt.~~ ~~I found this wiki page but it's solely focused on the US and the latest it goes back is only "prior to 1800" so I have no idea if that adds any weight to what I said or not~~

It's nice whichever country you live in isn't homophobic for the most part though despite it probably having a heavy Catholic influence in some--or maybe even most parts. I can't speak for the entire US as I've only lived in two states, both of which are in the midwest. It seems like were I live though, two people of the same gender showing signs of affection in public isn't a negative thing but would probably get a couple weird looks or snide comments. Fortunately the majority of the US isn't as... unaccepting as the southern portion. (though with Alabama recently legalizing same sex marriage, maybe things are changing down there, even if just slightly)

Kinda sucks when stereotypes have some truth to 'em huh? :/ Hopefully you'll run into less... loud LGBT people as time goes on. Unfortunately most LGBT+ people tend to be either extremely vocal about it or the exact opposite and really nonchalant about it.

I can't really add to the guys being touchy with other guys thing as I don't like much physical contact in general (if I could make handshakes and hugs not be common courtesies I would haha) and that's something that varies from friendship to friendship. However, I don't like that it's at the point that when some guys brush hands one has to go "nO homo br o . . .. " ~~plz calm down no passersby in that 2.5 second period questioned masculinity nor orientation~~ (granted that is an extreme example but it gets the gist across)

As for the pride parade things, they sound nice. I don't particularly have a problem with them and they're a safe, accepting place for LGBT people usually (not always as I know there's at least some biphobia and probably transphobia too in the LGBT community) I kinda wish they weren't as in public, I get their main point is to be in public and raise awareness but that's why I'd avoid them tbh. ~~if I'm gonna be noticeably not straight/cis around a bunch of other people I'd rather not do it outside though that's just my personal view on it~~

And yeah a lot of trans people do sorta seem to live their lives centered around that. That's a big part of their identity so it makes sense and I find it respectable that they devote so much of their time towards fighting for trans rights and protection. It is a little much at times though, like... they aren't just one dimensional right? There has to be more to them right?

Metantei Kiddo · February 22, 2015

(thanks for the clarifying on the last bit btw)

...I don't even know if trans people were like a thing hundreds of years ago. I don't mean that it's a recent thing but humanity's understanding of psychology wasn't good back then and from what I understand, gender wasn't as much of a thing back then. Like you had a biological sex and that was it. It determined if you were the one to give birth to the children or if you were the head of the household. It didn't matter if you didn't exactly feel that role fit you, that's the way things were, no exceptions.

I mean I'm sure gender was a thing then but it was probably directly tied to what you physically were and now it's known to be something separate and... it's not a state of mind but it's how you view yourself. I just don't know if that's something that was like thought about back when electricity and plumbing weren't everyday things haha. ~~I'm completely spit balling on this so I have no idea if that holds any truth at all so take that with a grain of salt.~~ ~~I found this wiki page but it's solely focused on the US and the latest it goes back is only "prior to 1800" so I have no idea if that adds any weight to what I said or not~~

It's nice whichever country you live in isn't homophobic for the most part though despite it probably having a heavy Catholic influence in some--or maybe even most parts. I can't speak for the entire US as I've only lived in two states, both of which are in the midwest. It seems like were I live though, two people of the same gender showing signs of affection in public isn't a negative thing but would probably get a couple weird looks or snide comments. Fortunately the majority of the US isn't as... unaccepting as the southern portion. (though with Alabama recently legalizing same sex marriage, maybe things are changing down there, even if just slightly)

Kinda sucks when stereotypes have some truth to 'em huh? :/ Hopefully you'll run into less... loud LGBT people as time goes on. Unfortunately most LGBT+ people tend to be either extremely vocal about it or the exact opposite and really nonchalant about it.

I can't really add to the guys being touchy with other guys thing as I don't like much physical contact in general (if I could make handshakes and hugs not be common courtesies I would haha) and that's something that varies from friendship to friendship. However, I don't like that it's at the point that when some guys brush hands one has to go "nO homo br o . . .. " ~~plz calm down no passersby in that 2.5 second period questioned masculinity nor orientation~~ (granted that is an extreme example but it gets the gist across)

As for the pride parade things, they sound nice. I don't particularly have a problem with them and they're a safe, accepting place for LGBT people usually (not always as I know there's at least some biphobia and probably transphobia too in the LGBT community) I kinda wish they weren't as in public, I get their main point is to be in public and raise awareness but that's why I'd avoid them tbh. ~~if I'm gonna be noticeably not straight/cis around a bunch of other people I'd rather not do it outside though that's just my personal view on it~~

And yeah a lot of trans people do sorta seem to live their lives centered around that. That's a big part of their identity so it makes sense and I find it respectable that they devote so much of their time towards fighting for trans rights and protection. It is a little much at times though, like... they aren't just one dimensional right? There has to be more to them right?

WARNING: Contains religion references.

Pardon my ignorance there I kind of did some research just now... and I gotta say yup, one of the biggest contributor of the recent taboo dealing on Homosexuals were actually becoz of the religious beliefs advocated by the religious leaders on the medieval times. (mostly by the Abrahamic religions; Christianity, Judaism and Islam) These beliefs pretty much instilled on the society which was passed down to generations and generations up till the modern times. Homosexuality wasn't pretty much condemned in ancient history (other than on what I had just stated) as far as from what I have researched. (from Wiki )

But still in our generation, who else listens to the priests or pastors? Only a few right? Science advocators, who are against religion, pretty much had already beaten these people in race of being more persuasive. So honestly, religion doesn't impact much as it does before when it comes to the issue of anti-LGBT. Yeah, the major religions initiated it but things have changed.

I honestly dunno if it's really becoz of our religion... coz the Church here advocates against Homosexuals. It's just that as I said before, what goes to the right ear comes out to the left for most Christian followers. No one really cares to what the Church says. And yeah, pretty much same happenings here... homosexual couples get snide comments and stuffs but that's just it. No persecution or anything.

Honestly, the battle for discrimination against Transgenders will be a hard one coz for hundreds of years, transgender was considered a taboo by most west influenced countries (that includes my country). But I know that eventually we will get used to it.

Well the "no homo thingy" is more of a social norm than anything. It'll probably hard to change for straight guys.

Well it isn't about me against those who devout a part of their life advocating the gay right thingy... it's on those transgenders who are just so focused on their gender role like everything they talk about is their gay life and nothing else.

Edited February 23, 2015 by MK the Great

hopes · February 23, 2015

Okay, okay, so a lot has been going back and forth, and it sounds like some good stuff has been said. machine has said several good things that I agree with, and MK has said a few things I just like to point out/elaborate on!!

Anyways, it's more of how society instilled guys with the norms of like... guys should not be to touchy to another guy etc. etc. Cannot blame us really... in this. The irritating part is based from my experiences being around trans. I met a lot of gays who are just flirty, over girly in their style and movement which is I find irritating. I dunno why I find it like that but I think it's more of becoz of rarity in sight of these kind of stuffs. Probably, the best solution for people who thinks like me in this way is putting us around more gay people who acts like these so that we get used to it. Yup also, part of it is the LGBT pride thingy. No need to really go on a parade and do stuffs stuffs. I really admire those gays who admits they are trans but lives their gay life privately and they have a separate life other than promoting Gay rights or talking about their Gay life. Not being rude just being plain honest, most trans that I met centers their life on trans stuff.

Nya... the wanting more thingy doesn't just apply on trans stuffs. It also applies to every human and human groups. So nah... it isn't a full blown strike to the knee against LGBT.

Anyways, Gays, in how I used it in context means LGBT, not just gay man.

These "gender norms" are constructs of society, and I honestly and thoroughly believe that we should not be teaching men to act in such a manner. There's nothing "weak" in regards to things that are considered more "feminine" such as crying, showing physical affection, and being more open about our feelings. In fact, I think those things can be extremely important when it comes to having effective communication between any two groups or more of people.

Second, those are only stereotypes and stereotypes leave a bad taste in my mouth. Please don't make any assumptions about this group of people. I understand that some members who identify as homosexual of the LGBTQA+ community can be flirty and overly dramatic, but so can any other group. And saying that you want to avoid that group of people solely because a few people can act in such a way is being discriminatory, but you seem to already understand that.

Thirdly, I request that you don't continue to refer to the LGBTQA+ community as "gays". The LGBTQA+ community is filled with diverse orientations, not only homosexual people. It is incorrect to refer to us in such a way, and I personally find it extremely exclusive. How much more difficult is it to type LGBTQA+ over "gays"? Only a few letters. Thank you.

But still in our generation, who else listens to the priests or pastors? Only a few right? Science advocators, who are against religion, pretty much had already beaten these people in race of being more persuasive. So honestly, religion doesn't impact much as it does before when it comes to the issue of anti-LGBT. Yeah, the major religions initiated it but things have changed.

I honestly dunno if it's really becoz of our religion... coz the Church here advocates against Homosexuals. It's just that as I said before, what goes to the right ear comes out to the left for most Christian followers. No one really cares to what the Church says. And yeah, pretty much same happenings here... homosexual couples get snide comments and stuffs but that's just it. No persecution or anything.

I know many religious people who still follow the church, well, religiously. It still has power, and always has been. Many wars in history have been fought because of religion, and it still has tremendous influence. And to say they get "no persecution" is an absolutely incorrect statement. Please look here, and feel free to google "hate crimes against lgbt" and see what comes up.

Well the "no homo thingy" is more of a social norm than anything. It'll probably hard to change for straight guys.

Well it isn't about me against those who devout a part of their life advocating the gay right thingy... it's on those transgenders who are just so focused on their gender role like everything they talk about is their gay life and nothing else.

Even if it'll "probably be hard to change" doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to dissuade use of that phrase, as some people in the community may be uncomfortable with it. It's the same as when using the phrase "that's so gay" offended many people, especially when it was used in regards to something that wasn't even human.

And for that last part, can you blame them for being so focused on it and advocating for it? People are thrown out of their homes for coming out to their families, they're scared. People commit suicide because they feel like they can no longer continue to live with their gender identity. It is a pressing issue, one that should be brought to everyone's attention. And this is a huge aspect of their life, so of course they're going to talk about it! It's the same as you being passionate about something you like, such as Detective Conan, for instance. You want to talk about it with your friends because you really like it. It's the same, except this can BE their entire lives. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks!

Edited February 24, 2015 by Akakata

Hobgoblin2012 · February 23, 2015

Basically every single war in history has been fought because of religion,

I disagree. The war in Iraq was more over Saddam's oil than anything else. WWII has been fought over many reasons, but Hitler's craziness didn't include religion, but mostly racial prejudices and banal thirst for power. The Soviet Union attacked Afghanistan, and USSR was a purely atheistic state.

Metantei Kiddo · February 23, 2015

Okay, okay, so a lot has been going back and forth, and it sounds like some good stuff has been said. machine has said several good things that I agree with, and MK has said a few things I just like to point out/elaborate on!!

These "gender norms" are constructs of society, and I honestly and thoroughly believe that we should not be teaching men to act in such a manner. There's nothing "weak" in regards to things that are considered more "feminine" such as crying, showing physical affection, and being more open about our feelings. In fact, I think those things can be extremely important when it comes to having effective communication between any two groups or more of people.

Second, those are only stereotypes and stereotypes leave a bad taste in my mouth. Please don't make any assumptions about this group of people. I understand that some members who identify as homosexual of the LGBTQA+ community can be flirty and overly dramatic, but so can any other group. And saying that you want to avoid that group of people solely because a few people can act in such a way is being discriminatory, but you seem to already understand that.

Thirdly, I request that you don't continue to refer to the LGBTQA+ community as "gays". The LGBTQA+ community is filled with diverse orientations, not only homosexual people. It is incorrect to refer to us in such a way, and I personally find it extremely exclusive. How much more difficult is it to type LGBTQA+ over "gays"? Only a few letters. Thank you.

I know many religious people who still follow the church, well, religiously. It still has power, and always has been. Basically every single war in history has been fought because of religion, and it still has tremendous influence. And to say they get "no persecution" is an absolutely incorrect statement. Please look here, and feel free to google "hate crimes against lgbt" and see what comes up.

Even if it'll "probably be hard to change" doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to dissuade use of that phrase, as some people in the community may be uncomfortable with it. It's the same as when using the phrase "that's so gay" offended many people, especially when it was used in regards to something that wasn't even human.

And for that last part, can you blame them for being so focused on it and advocating for it? People are thrown out of their homes for coming out to their families, they're scared. People commit suicide because they feel like they can no longer continue to live with their gender identity. It is a pressing issue, one that should be brought to everyone's attention. And this is a huge aspect of their life, so of course they're going to talk about it! It's the same as you being passionate about something you like, such as Detective Conan, for instance. You want to talk about it with your friends because you really like it. It's the same, except this can BE their entire lives. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks!

Well for the First, Honestly, I'm a bit of a showy guy too when it comes to emotion and feelings. So, I really have no prob about that. I also hope that guys are more like that than taking everything inside and never letting it out. It can kill, literally.

For the second, well yeah, I was stereotyping. Sorry about that. Can't really just avoid it. Yeah, it all applies to all genders but I didn't include them coz it's not part of the topic, at least on that time. But there's something that I never said, which is I wanna avoid those people. I really didn't say it so I dunno where you got that. I honestly never avoid LGBT people. I just find some awkwardness being around them but that's just it and I stated the probable reason behind it.

Anyways, I was also sharing my opinion and opening up so that people could look into how guys view LGBTs. I wasn't really ranting coz truthfully, I could also give the positive things that I find about LGBTs. As an average Joe, you could say that I represent a part of the guys who are a bit homophobic and these are probably there reasons too. I ain't gonna defend myself much more. And think of it, if I was really ranting, would I really postulate a probable solution to the problem in there? I mean about putting us homophobic guys around more LGBTs? Yeah, I gotta admit though that I was bit harsh on my wording. I really should've worded them better.

For the third, I'm sorry about that. I'm not educated about this. So I'm really really sorry. I would not do it anymore next time.

For the religion thingy, Ehrrmmm.... I have an argument against that but this is something that I do not want to talk about. I will offend people if I say something on this thingy. We rather leave the religion thingy now. For the latter part though, about the LGBT hate crimes, I pretty much lose that one coz I just based from my experience and from what I heard.

Hmmm... about the hard to change stuff... I dunno.

Well goes back to the experience thingy, rarely hear someone being thrown out by their family or being persecuted becoz they are LGBT, at least in my country.

And yeah, I ain't anti-LGBT, I'm more leaning to pro-neutral. The deciding factor is the reasoning against and for it, and how it'll affect the society as a whole, like the family and the children, not just the appealing group of person. For the reasoning part, I tend to always look at the two sides of the coin not just at one side that feels right for me or at least, what most people says is the right one. I have looked up the reasoning that was put up by anti-LGBT activists, well most of it are moral ethics being violated, and I find those reasonable. There were also stuffs that are scientific like LGBT are against the nature of the law. But then I've heard some news that, they say that some animals can also be trans which I can't confirm. So I'm literally split there. Then there's the religion argument thingy that I just pretty much dismissed. As for the reasoning of the pro LGBT activists, no need to tell them really. About how it'll affect the society as a whole, I will just keep them to myself.

Honestly, I really didn't want to go in this issue coz I am much uneducated about the history of LGBT, the root cause behind it, persecutions of LGBT and etc. etc. It's not that I do not care. It's just that, as I said a million times, my country doesn't have much problems with these coz it's not really a main issue here. We aren't given proper education on this. So all that I put out about LGBT have no concrete researching behind except for my argument against the religion being the big contributor on anti-LGBT (and you can include other problems). All of it are just my views and how I feel towards LGBT.

I disagree. The war in Iraq was more over Saddam's oil than anything else. WWII has been fought over many reasons, but Hitler's craziness didn't include religion, but mostly racial prejudices and banal thirst for power. The Soviet Union attacked Afghanistan, and USSR was a purely atheistic state.

This. I feel like that these stuffs are never taught. What's new? Religion always gets the blame anyways when it comes to things.

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