The Secret Behind Vermouth's Youth!

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

yes but APTX is not known to the Organization that it shirnks you.

Pretty much this. The only reason Vermouth would take APTX 4869 is if she wanted to commit suicide. It is incomplete (remember the nickname incomplete detective) and the Org doesn't know about the shrinking, only the poisoning. If Vermouth deaged between her Sharon and Chris appearances, it would have to be something other than APTX.

[Orangeburst 19]

Do you guys think that maybe Vermouth is Fusae Campbell?

[DetectiveSherry 2]

Sharon has picked up heat from the FBI. The FBI correctly figured out Sharon was Vermouth, but by becoming Chris, suddenly she is now too young to have committed the crime 20 years ago. The FBI is going to need to start over again and build a strong case that they are the same person before they can haul her off. Jodie's investigation has made that possible now and Vermouth wasn't counting on her doing as well as she had.

According to this theory, it follows that Vermouth had been aware that Jodie knew the fact that Sharon and Chris sre the same person. However it seems like she wasn't aware of it since she said in the episode 345 that she was surprised that a girl from 20 yeas before was actually Jodie and hence seems not to have imagined that her aging secret was known to others. She just noticed that the FBI was investigating her after she moved to Japan.

The second part of your objection doesn't make much sense to me because basically "Chris" hadn't existed, and had gone from an extremely secretive lifestyle, only appearing for interviews and acting movies, to a public one as soon as Sharon died. Why couldn't Sharon appear the same way? The "real person" who existed before Sharon was Sharon's Mom who died on the day of Sharon's debut. Not all stars are born from stars if that is what you mean. If Sharon's mom was not an actor as well (she may have been),

That's a different case from Sharon's because Chris had become a star by using her mother's status. There was no need for her to have a career in the past. What was required of her was just the fact that she has a mother, Sharon, who is a big star. If you review the episode 286, Sharon said that her daughter had had an instant success unlike her. So Chris had appeared with a lot of fanfare and not with her own career.

Vermouth is, according to Hattori, gorgeous and she acts well. As Sharon, she could have made it under her own power to stardom.

But, even if a person is goegeous and acts well, you still need a career to succeed, right? There is a lot who are gorgeous and act well but only those who have luck and had some career or connection like Chris can make it, I think. However according to what Sharon said during NY case(what I wrote in the above paragraph) she seems to have gained her career on her own and her mother was not a star like Chris's case.

So I feel it's weird that Sharon appears and make a debut without any career in the past.

And then Sharon said that she haven't seen Chris for ten years. That means when Chris "appeared", Sharon already took the drug.

I agree to this opinion. Based on what Sharon said, I'm guessing that Vermouth had drank APTX 4869 and taken her another public form as Chris 10 years ago.

But why she took it? This is my speculaton but maybe she once had her own kid and mistakingly that kid drank APTX and died. Then she bacame hopeless and tried to commit suicide but unexpectedly she shrank like Conan and Ai. That's why she is angry with the drug research.

I was wondering if Yukiko met or saw the picture of Sharon's daughter. Ther are friends and should want to have a look at a child if she has one. That's why I think Sharon's daughter really existed before.

However if that's the case, why do BO members not realize the APTX's shrinking effect. That's what is bothering me.

[User 4869 100]

According to this theory, it follows that Vermouth had been aware that Jodie knew the fact that Sharon and Chris sre the same person. However it seems like she wasn't aware of it since she said in the episode 345 that she was surprised that a girl from 20 yeas before was actually Jodie and hence seems not to have imagined that her aging secret was known to others. She just noticed that the FBI was investigating her after she moved to Japan.

Vermouth knows Jodie survive but did not know who or where is she now. By changing identity, if one would accuse "Chris" on Jodie's father case they must prove she's not Chirs first since "Chris"' is too young to commit the crime. It is not require for Vermouth to know or not know who is Jodie. Jodie only realize that "Chris" is the person she looking for one year ago (when Chris say her catchphrase at the funeral) and match her with Sharon even later (with fingerprint) but Vermouth got benefit from changing identity nonetheless.

[DetectiveSherry 2]

Vermouth knows Jodie survive but did not know who or where is she now. By changing identity, if one would accuse "Chris" on Jodie's father case they must prove she's not Chirs first since "Chris"' is too young to commit the crime. It is not require for Vermouth to know or not know who is Jodie. Jodie only realize that "Chris" is the person she looking for one year ago (when Chris say her catchphrase at the funeral) and match her with Sharon even later (with fingerprint) but Vermouth got benefit from changing identity nonetheless.

So Vermouth was suspecting that someone(a girl from 20 years ago) could connect Vermouth at that time to Chris Vinyard and then to Sharon Vinyard? 2 steps were needed and the first one was rather a matter of luck. jodie started suspecting Chris luckily by hearing her catchphrase " A secret makes a woman woman". If she was cautious enough to suspect that the girl might associate the enemy who killed her father with Chris Vinyard, why did she give her catchphrase, which she gave the girl 20 years ago so carelessly? That doesn't make sense.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

According to this theory, it follows that Vermouth had been aware that Jodie knew the fact that Sharon and Chris sre the same person.

I think you are misunderstanding. Vermouth as Sharon knew she was being investigated for her past crimes by the FBI. By switching to Chris she has a clean record again.

However it seems like she wasn't aware of it since she said in the episode 345 that she was surprised that a girl from 20 yeas before was actually Jodie and hence seems not to have imagined that her aging secret was known to others.

She knew perfectly well who Jodie was, but didn't know her past. In V42-9 on page 2, Vermouth says, "This is Japan. Let's follow its customs and speak in Japanese. The FBI's star investigator Jodie" .

That's a different case from Sharon's because Chris had become a star by using her mother's status. There was no need for her to have a career in the past.

This doesn't make much sense and I don't see how it is relevant to the point I made. The argument I put forth was that the way Sharon appeared, her mother died in a fire on the day of her debut, is very similar to the way Chris appeared, Sharon died and Chris suddenly quit her secretive private lifestyle after that. Basically that would hint that Vermouth was Sharon's mom as well and is actually a lot older than 50. The reason Vermouth might have switched from Sharon's mom to Sharon could be because of investigative pressure or her disguise skills back then weren't as good (she hadn't learned from Toichi yet) and she needed to switch to someone with a more youthful face.

However according to what Sharon said during NY case(what I wrote in the above paragraph) she seems to have gained her career on her own and her mother was not a star like Chris's case.

So I feel it's weird that Sharon appears and make a debut without any career in the past.

You are misunderstanding Sharon's words. Basically she said that Chris had an easy time breaking in because Sharon was already an actress and had the connections. We also know from other character's commentary that Chris Vineyard is a superstar and very popular. She's not just a pretty face, she acts well too. Also, plenty of actors in real life break into acting without familial connections, so Sharon breaking in on her own power isn't that hard to imagine, especially since she is a Black Org agent and could very well have tapped the Black Org's power to help. Hidemi easily became a television personality and she had no prior background. The Org might have helped, but Sharon had the Org to help her too.

Based on what Sharon said, I'm guessing that Vermouth had drank APTX 4869 and taken her another public form as Chris 10 years ago.

APTX 4869 was only known to work as a poison and was called the incomplete detective because it didn't work as intended. Vermouth must have used something else because it doesn't make sense for her to try to commit suicide.

I was wondering if Yukiko met or saw the picture of Sharon's daughter. Ther are friends and should want to have a look at a child if she has one. That's why I think Sharon's daughter really existed before.

However if that's the case, why do BO members not realize the APTX's shrinking effect. That's what is bothering me.

There was extensive debate about the existence of Sharon's daughter at DCTP. After pages of debate and going back to the japanese, there was no evidence other than Sharon's word that she had a daughter who was a separate existence from her. Basically the reader is forced to take it on Akai, Jodie, and Conan's good word that they didn't botch their investigations. Yukiko's words in the NY case, if you look at a good translations, don't imply direct knowledge of Chris, only what she has heard through Sharon.

[Orangeburst 19]

I doubt of Vermouth having three identities for public. If she's really Sharon's mother and swiched to Sharon as her public form (owing to immortality effect), then why does she have to take another public form as Chris?

I believe that's because she turned younger at this point and thought it convenient to be at the same age as she is at public.

Also, according to the quoted theory, it follows that "Sharon" hadn't existed right? But it's weird that a star appears out of nowhere and there has to be an recognized existance(real person) before that.

So I'm guessing that Sharon at the age of around 50 is Vermouth's true identity, I mean she is what Vermouth is to be if nothing happened regarding her aging.

What do you think?

Well, I'm thinking that maybe Sharon is the disguise of Fusae Campbell Kinoshita. Fusae is already 50 years old, but why isn't her hair white? I mean, Prof. Agasa's hair is already white.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Well, I'm thinking that maybe Sharon is the disguise of Fusae Campbell Kinoshita. Fusae is already 50 years old, but why isn't her hair white? I mean, Prof. Agasa's hair is already white.

Maybe she has lucky genes or she's dying her hair the natural shade to avoid the salt and pepper look? Also, if Fusae is with Akai as has been speculated based on the similarities to the two people asked to follow Yukiko and the detective boys (Gosho did make the effort to draw non-generic shadow people for this) then probably not.

Fusae does appears to age normally (as she was seen 10 years ago and 40 years ago). That could be simulated with masks and makeup, but someone impersonating Fusae with a disguise wouldn't know about the "I think Ginko leaves are pretty" quote of Agasa's made behind the school 40 years ago sans people around, or even who Agasa is. Also someone impersonating Fusae wouldn't go through the effort of waiting from dawn till dusk at a certain spot for someone after not seeing them for forty years.

If you look at is from the perspective that Fusae is disguised as Sharon then why does Vermouth have no reactions to Agasa throughout the entirety of the Vermouth arc? If she really felt something about Agasa, why wasn't his picture up there on her dartboard along with Conan's and Ran's? Also Ai was there when Agasa and Fusae met. She had no reaction even though we know she can sense Vermouth in disguise. If Vermouth is Fusae, then Billy, her accompaniment, is probably also Black Org which should have triggered Ai as well.

[Rainy 6]

But I wonder... If Vermouth drank the poison, Gin would know that that poison makes people younger. therefore, why did he gave it to Shinichi as an untested drug?

True! So that's very unlikely of Vermouth to drink the poison(APTX3869). hmm, she might of had a facial plastic sergery, AND at the same time took some kind of drug. you know, even if you look younger than you should be, your body will still be the same. so taking drug to stimulate her body to act younger would be reasonable.

[appletoxin 3]

hmmm......

maybe she bathed herself in blood of murdered people to stay young? (eg. that europen queen elizabeth something, vol. 6-7 Ghost Hunt - Urado) She's certainly that evil and has killed enough to do that.(though i actually kinda respect her, i mean, she kept conan/ai's secret)

Or she's and vampire ( I support Edward Cullen )?

.....

anythings possible, even though these guess have the probabilty of .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

etc. 1

[DetectiveSherry 2]

This doesn't make much sense and I don't see how it is relevant to the point I made. The argument I put forth was that the way Sharon appeared, her mother died in a fire on the day of her debut, is very similar to the way Chris appeared, Sharon died and Chris suddenly quit her secretive private lifestyle after that.

Sorry if I get off the point. I misunderstood that you were talking about the similarity on the "debut" of Sharon and Chris.

But I think that debuting and beginning to disclose a ptivate life are different things. Sharon debuted on the day her parents died. On the other hand, Chris had already debuted before Sharon died.

You are misunderstanding Sharon's words. Basically she said that Chris had an easy time breaking in because Sharon was already an actress and had the connections.

I think I took her word correctly. Sharon said that "My parents died on the day I debuted, for which I'd had a tough time...(sneer) greatly different from my daughter, who debuted easily thanks to me." So if she wasn't lyng as for her debut she worked hard and gained her career on her own. By offering Sharon's word I just tried to prove that Sharon and Chris secceeded in the defferent way.

I think you are misunderstanding. Vermouth as Sharon knew she was being investigated for her past crimes by the FBI. By switching to Chris she has a clean record again.

If it was really to escape from the FBI that Vermouth changed her public face from Sharon to Chris, it is essential that she become younger and at the same time to extinguish Sharon, her old form because the FBI could connect Vermouth to Sharon and hence can arrest her.

However, it seems like the former precedes the latter since Chris began to appeare in public, getting interviews and attending parties after Sharon died. That means Chris already existed as an actress prior to Sharon's death. She just began to disclose her private life (since there is no worry to overlap with Sharon) after Sharon died and had already debuted and was filming before that as Chris.

That's why I think that changing identity has nothing to do with the FBI.

She knew perfectly well who Jodie was, but didn't know her past.

But if she didn't know her past then how could have she suspected that the FBI connected Vermouth 20 years ago to Chris and then to Sharon? Also if she just noticed that she was being investigated by the FBI there is no reason she became younger.

In V42-9 on page 2, Vermouth says, "This is Japan. Let's follow its customs and speak in Japanese. The FBI's star investigator Jodie" .

I said Vermouth wasn't aware of her being investigated when she moved to Japan to attend the ceremony.

But she noticed them after she disguised herself as Dr Araide. I figured this way because Vermouth didn't notice that Dr Araide had been ptotected by the FBI and did not die in the car acccident.

Yukiko's words in the NY case, if you look at a good translations, don't imply direct knowledge of Chris, only what she has heard through Sharon.

Yukiko said that "Ah if I recall you(Sharon) were saying that your daughter beged you to give her a disguising lesson."

And Sharon said that "Can you believe it? My daughter was standing in fromt of my husband's grave disguised as him. I haven't met her since then...it's been about 10 years."

Although we cannot trust Sharon's word we could still count on what Yukiko said.

So Sharon mentioned her daughter's existence at least about 10 years ago. You seem to disagree with my opinion that her daughter really existed but then why would she tell her friend about her own daughter although there isn't the existance?

That said, I'm suspecting that Vermouth had already become younger at that time and there wasn't her own daughter. She already lost her daughter but still was pretending to Yukiko that she was alive.

Also if vermouth is Sharon's mom and drank something to stop aging, she should have been around her 30's at that time since she is now around that age. I think it takes 5 to 10 years for adults to notice that one isn't aging at all. So she and the BO menber noticed the drug's immortality or some kind of effect when she was 35 or more. Then if vermouth changed her mask from Sharon's mom to Sharon and hence "Sharon" didn't existed, "Sharon" which Vermouth created must have been over around 30. But I doubt it because of the picture in a file of a NY case. There is a picture of Sharon and Yukiko being with the magician and Sharon at the picture looked pretty young, 20 or more as for me. That depends on your perception and not convincing but take a look at it if you like. I read it on onemanga.

And to Yellowglow, I skipped the episode where Fusae appeared so I cannot discuss that possibility.

So again, what do you think?

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Sorry if I get off the point. I misunderstood that you were talking about the similarity on the "debut" of Sharon and Chris.

But I think that debuting and beginning to disclose a ptivate life are different things. Sharon debuted on the day her parents died. On the other hand, Chris had already debuted before Sharon died.

But it really isn't that different. Chris only appeared while Sharon was alive to make movies and give interviews. Basically Vermouth could do double duty and be both people as long as Chris didn't take up too much of Sharon's time. When Sharon "died", Chris could come out in the open because Vermouth didn't spend time being both people.

If it was really to escape from the FBI that Vermouth changed her public face from Sharon to Chris, it is essential that she become younger and at the same time to extinguish Sharon, her old form because the FBI could connect Vermouth to Sharon and hence can arrest her.

However, it seems like the former precedes the latter since Chris began to appeare in public, getting interviews and attending parties after Sharon died. That means Chris already existed as an actress prior to Sharon's death. She just began to disclose her private life (since there is no worry to overlap with Sharon) after Sharon died and had already debuted and was filming before that as Chris.

That's why I think that changing identity has nothing to do with the FBI.

No it is important. It is more suspicious if one person disappears and then someone new appears. By creating a false long term continuity for Chris's existence, it makes it harder to say, "well, she pretended to die and disguised as Chris". Jodie herself believed Chris was a different person from Sharon until when at the funeral Chris said the "A secret makes a woman, woman" line.

But if she didn't know her past then how could have she suspected that the FBI connected Vermouth 20 years ago to Chris and then to Sharon? Also if she just noticed that she was being investigated by the FBI there is no reason she became younger.

Vermouth didn't know Jodie figured out Sharon and Chris were the same person. She knew the FBI and Jodie were investigating Chris as part of the Black Org, but not necessarily the same agent of the Black Org as Sharon.

Yukiko said that "Ah if I recall you(Sharon) were saying that your daughter beged you to give her a disguising lesson."

And Sharon said that "Can you believe it? My daughter was standing in fromt of my husband's grave disguised as him. I haven't met her since then...it's been about 10 years."

Although we cannot trust Sharon's word we could still count on what Yukiko said.

As I said before, there is no evidence Yukiko actually saw Chris talking to Sharon. This could be Yukiko repeating a story Sharon told her about Chris asking for disguise training. As proof of this, when Shinichi told Yukiko his hypothesis that Chris and Sharon are the same person, even though Yukiko didn't want to believe it because Sharon was her friend, she accepted Conan's hypothesis anyway. Yukiko acknowledges that what Shinichi said could be true based on her past with Sharon. Basically Yukiko can't disprove Conan's hypothesis despite not wanting to believe it.

So Sharon mentioned her daughter's existence at least about 10 years ago. You seem to disagree with my opinion that her daughter really existed but then why would she tell her friend about her own daughter although there isn't the existance?

Vermouth had been working on Chris's identity for a long time. Vermouth is not aging, but her cover Sharon Vineyard is, which means more makeup and a greater risk of accidents. It doesn't help the FBI are closing in too. The reason Sharon lied to Yukiko was to build Chris's background up to create the impression she is a real person. It would be weird for a mom not to talk about her kid every now and then.

[Scar Akai 65]

But how about the time when the two met at the funeral? Sharon and Chris?

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

But how about the time when the two met at the funeral? Sharon and Chris?

It wasn't at a funeral, it was some other time before. There was no one else around to corroborate that story. It could be something Sharon made it up. Or maybe Sharon was lying about the husband being dead and the husband actually went with Sharon to visit his own grave because he's part of the BO and faked his death, and Sharon later changed the story to say Chris did it.

[DetectiveSherry 2]

Vermouth didn't know Jodie figured out Sharon and Chris were the same person. She knew the FBI and Jodie were investigating Chris as part of the Black Org, but not necessarily the same agent of the Black Org as Sharon.

So just to make it clear, you've given up your rebutals to my argument below? It seems like you are changing your side of argument as the discussion continues. Your argument is not coherent and I'm confused for that.

She would take a public form as Chris for a few reasons, Second, and perhaps more importantly is that Sharon has picked up heat from the FBI. The FBI correctly figured out Sharon was Vermouth, but by becoming Chris, suddenly she is now too young to have committed the crime 20 years ago. The FBI is going to need to start over again and build a strong case that they are the same person before they can haul her off. Jodie's investigation has made that possible now and Vermouth wasn't counting on her doing as well as she had.

Vermouth as Sharon knew she was being investigated for her past crimes by the FBI. By switching to Chris she has a clean record again.

So at the point of your second quoted post, you've already given up your first rebutal that Vermouth took a public form as Chris because that would make it harder for the FBI to investigate her crime 20 years ago and you were thinking that switching to Chris has nothing to do with her crime 20 years ago?

Also you suddenly changed your opinion that "Vermouth as Sharon knew she was being investigated for her past crimes. By switching to Chris she has a clean record again." to that "she knew the FBI and Jodie were investigating Chris as part of the Black Org, but not necessarily the same agent of the Black Org as Sharon".

The two of those are not relavent to each other. I'm confused. You previously said that Vermouth as Sharon switched to Chris in order to get a clean record. That means Vermouth noticed that the FBI was investigating Sharon and not Chris, right? But the next time you said she noticed that the FBI was investigating Chris and not Sharon.

So you think that Vermouth changing identity has something to do with the crimes by Chris and not with those by Sharon? But that doesn't make sense. Vermouth switched from Sharon to Chris and not the opposite.

No it is important. It is more suspicious if one person disappears and then someone new appears. By creating a false long term continuity for Chris's existence, it makes it harder to say, "well, she pretended to die and disguised as Chris". Jodie herself believed Chris was a different person from Sharon until when at the funeral Chris said the "A secret makes a woman, woman" line.

But the idea of changing identity for escaping needs the fact that she noticed she was already being marked by the FBI and if Vermouth was aware that "Sharon" was being investigated by them, her first thing should be to erase "Sharon" from the world. Or there would be a possibility that she might be arrested soon since the FBI was already chasing Sharon. It's the next thing to create another form she'll take in the public and if she worries that the FBI might realize this switching she could just take some years off as for her public life and just spend her time as a BO's agent.

It's more important and urgent that she might be arrested than that her switching might be revealed. Even if the FBI find out the secret and ran a fingerprint experiment they still cannot prove that they are the same person because of the gap in their age(they actually had trouble of doing that).

So it's not necessary to have a time of Sharon and Chris both appearing.

But it really isn't that different. Chris only appeared while Sharon was alive to make movies and give interviews. Basically Vermouth could do double duty and be both people as long as Chris didn't take up too much of Sharon's time. When Sharon "died", Chris could come out in the open because Vermouth didn't spend time being both people.

Seems like the way I picked up words was bad. I'll review the previous discussion.

In my first post I said it's weird that a star(Sharon) appears out of nowhere. Then you insisted that Chris had also appeared just after her mother died and why Sharon couldn't appeare the same way. So I said that's because Chris had a star as her mother but Sharon didn't and instead she debuted after a tough time and succeeded on her own. Here I misunderstood that with the word "appear" you are refferring to the "debut" of the two characters. Instead you seem to have assumed the similarity in Sharon's debut and Chris's "debut" as her open privet life. However, what I intended to do was to point out the weirdness of Sharon's mom-Vermouth theory which entails that "Sharon" hadn't existed. Then to prove it I offered the issue of Sharon's debut story and getting your question, compared it to that of Chris. So it doesn't matter how Chris begin to reveal her private life and so I said debuing and beggining to disclose one's private life is different. What I assumed was Vermouth's appearing as to her public life and not as to her private one.

I'm not sure if I'm still describing my opinion above correctly...my poor English...tut tut...

As I said before, there is no evidence Yukiko actually saw Chris talking to Sharon. This could be Yukiko repeating a story Sharon told her about Chris asking for disguise training.

That's not what I meant. I didn't say Yukiko saw Chris talking to Sharon. I'll make my argument again.

There was a conversation like this.

Sharon: "Can you believe it? My daughter was standing in fromt of my husband's grave disguised as him. I haven't met her since then...it's been about 10 years."

Yukiko: "Ah if I recall you were saying that your daughter beged you to give her a disguising lesson."

Altough we cannot trust Sharon's words since she could be ling, we can still count on Yukiko's. So as of the first sentence by Yukiko there is a fact that Sharon said Yukiko that her daughter beged her to give a disguising lesson. The unbolded part could be a lie but the bolded part is a fact. Remember this point. What we know with this is just the fact that Sharon said Yukiko the above thing. And then if we consider Sharon's words and think logically we can take another fact from them, that Sharon said Yukiko that her daughter beged her to give her a disguising lesson at least about 10 years ago.

To sum up there is a fact that Vermouth was creating or had already created "Chris Vinyard" about 10 years ago. You say it's to build Chris's backgraund up to creat the impression she is a real person(so according to this, it's not that she had created Chris but that she was creating her)　And you say it's to escape from the FBI that she swiched to Chris and that the reason she didn't extinguish Sharon before she created Chris was to make it harder for the FBI to reveal this swicthing. Then it follows that it's at least about 10 years ago that she noticed the FBI were investigating Sharon. But it's unlikely that Vermouth didn't fear the possibility that the FBI might catch and arrest her for at least about 10 years...that's too long.　

As proof of this, when Shinichi told Yukiko his hypothesis that Chris and Sharon are the same person, even though Yukiko didn't want to believe it because Sharon was her friend, she accepted Conan's hypothesis anyway. Yukiko acknowledges that what Shinichi said could be true based on her past with Sharon. Basically Yukiko can't disprove Conan's hypothesis despite not wanting to believe it

Were there a scene where Yukiko showed her ackowledgement of the fact that Sharon and Chris are the same person? As far as I recall, she just mumbled "Is that true, Sharon?"

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

So just to make it clear, you've given up your rebutals to my argument below? It seems like you are changing your side of argument as the discussion continues. Your argument is not coherent and I'm confused for that.

Sorry if I didn't express it clearly, but my point has always been that Sharon switched to Chris for two reasons:

1: Vermouth doesn't age, and she looks somewhere in her late 20s now, so it is easier for her to live as a younger person rather than the older Sharon which requires makeup.

2: Sharon is being investigated by the FBI for the crime 20 years ago and most likely recent crimes as well. By switching to Chris she has a clean record.

Vermouth planned on switching to Chris a long time ago because she has been working on creating a separate Chris identity for many years. (I believe her plans had been in the works for 10+ years.) At first, the reason could be entirely number 1 and maybe planning ahead in case two happened, but as she came under more investigation as Sharon, reason number 2 became important as well.

Vermouth didn't know that Jodie was the daughter of the FBI agent she killed twenty years ago during her Sharon disguise period and that Jodie had a sample of Vermouth's fingerprints. Vermouth also didn't count on Jodie figuring it out and proving that Sharon is Chris quickly. Jodie put two and two together and now the heat is back on Chris and she knows it because the FBI followed her to Japan and investigated her. Because she is being investigated as heavily as she is, Vermouth knows or at least strongly suspects the FBI figured out Sharon is Chris.

It's the next thing to create another form she'll take in the public and if she worries that the FBI might realize this switching she could just take some years off as for her public life and just spend her time as a BO's agent.

It might not have been convenient to the BO for Vermouth to lose her ability to move in high society. At the time, Vermouth thought she could get away with switching to Chris and killing off Sharon.

It's more important and urgent that she might be arrested than that her switching might be revealed.

On what grounds would Chris be arrested if the FBI doesn't know Sharon is Chris? Remember, Chris has a clean record.

Even if the FBI find out the secret and ran a fingerprint experiment they still cannot prove that they are the same person because of the gap in their age(they actually had trouble of doing that).

Jodie did what you said and believed it. Akai also believed it too based on Jodie's investigation. Jodie and Akai's view was age contradiction be damned, they are same person anyway and we'll figure out how she tricked everyone when we haul her in for questioning.

So it's not necessary to have a time of Sharon and Chris both appearing.

You are correct that it isn't strictly necessary, but it makes it far more believable for her to create a history for the person she is switching into. Vermouth is a master of disguise and the FBI knows this. Sharon doesn't conceal her disguise abilities, she openly used them in front of a crowd of people in the NY case. If Sharon disappeared and Chris appeared, the first logical thought would be that Vermouth disguised as Chris Vineyard and is wearing a mask. The apparent age difference doesn't matter if the FBI thinks it is all a mask.

Seems like the way I picked up words was bad. I'll review the previous discussion.

In my first post I said it's weird that a star(Sharon) appears out of nowhere. Then you insisted that Chris had also appeared just after her mother died and why Sharon couldn't appeare the same way. So I said that's because Chris had a star as her mother but Sharon didn't and instead she debuted after a tough time and succeeded on her own.

Right, and my rebuttal was that Sharon doesn't need to be a second generation actress to break in when she has the BO's support. Kir became a TV personality easily despite having no background and Vermouth is both talented and beautiful, qualities needed for an actress.

Here I misunderstood that with the word "appear" you are refferring to the "debut" of the two characters. Instead you seem to have assumed the similarity in Sharon's debut and Chris's "debut" as her open privet life.

Both are similar in that although both mom and child disguises existed simultaneously some time before, only after the death of the mother did the daughter come out and take center stage. Sharon's mom died after Sharon debuted on screen which coincides with Sharon receiving a lot of publicity. Vermouth hadn't studied under Toichi yet, so although she could likely disguise well back then, may not have had the confidence to pull off disguising as both mother and daughter after daughter has acquired some fame. In the most recent incarnation, Chris only appeared to act in screen plays and give interviews; her private life was a black box. Sharon meanwhile had a private life, although at her age (40s to 50s), her acting career was probably much slower giving time her to play Chris. Adding to the parallels, Sharon and Chris both lost their fathers as well: Sharon's father died in the fire at the time of her mother's death, Chris's father died after Sharon won an Oscar.

However, what I intended to do was to point out the weirdness of Sharon's mom-Vermouth theory which entails that "Sharon" hadn't existed.

My point was that The "Sharon's mom/Sharon" story wasn't that different from the "Sharon/Chris" story, if Vermouth could pull off one, she could pull off the other.

The lack of info makes it impossible to prove that it happened, if Vermouth is Sharon's mom, it matches up nicely with the timeframe that Vermouth, as Sharon's mom, whatever her career was, took something in her twenties over fifty years ago that stopped her aging. It coincides with the start of the BO's project over 50 years ago, and her hatred for the Miyanos who may have been studying her and created APTX 4869 from their analysis.

That's not what I meant. I didn't say Yukiko saw Chris talking to Sharon. I'll make my argument again.

There was a conversation like this.

Sharon: "Can you believe it? My daughter was standing in fromt of my husband's grave disguised as him. I haven't met her since then...it's been about 10 years."

Yukiko: "Ah if I recall you were saying that your daughter beged you to give her a disguising lesson."

Altough we cannot trust Sharon's words since she could be ling, we can still count on Yukiko's. So as of the first sentence by Yukiko there is a fact that Sharon said Yukiko that her daughter beged her to give a disguising lesson. The unbolded part could be a lie but the bolded part is a fact. Remember this point. What we know with this is just the fact that Sharon said Yukiko the above thing. And then if we consider Sharon's words and think logically we can take another fact from them, that Sharon said Yukiko that her daughter beged her to give her a disguising lesson at least about 10 years ago.

To sum up there is a fact that Vermouth was creating or had already created "Chris Vinyard" about 10 years ago. You say it's to build Chris's backgraund up to creat the impression she is a real person(so according to this, it's not that she had created Chris but that she was creating her)　And you say it's to escape from the FBI that she swiched to Chris and that the reason she didn't extinguish Sharon before she created Chris was to make it harder for the FBI to reveal this swicthing. Then it follows that it's at least about 10 years ago that she noticed the FBI were investigating Sharon. But it's unlikely that Vermouth didn't fear the possibility that the FBI might catch and arrest her for at least about 10 years...that's too long.　

I assume you mean "Sharon said to Yukiko". I feel the need to point out that what Sharon said about the timing and could be a lie and she could be backdating. (We have no idea when Sharon revealed Chris's existence to the world.) It doesn't matter though because even if Sharon created Chris over ten years ago, I already explained why she planned that far in advance at the top of this post in reason 1.

Were there a scene where Yukiko showed her ackowledgement of the fact that Sharon and Chris are the same person? As far as I recall, she just mumbled "Is that true, Sharon?"

It's not a direct acknowledgment, but you can tell by the feeling of the scene and her lack of objection to Shinichi that she seems to accept it as a possibility. (It's V42-10 pages 4 and 5) Shinichi is the kind of person who, if he doesn't want to believe that someone he valued or trusted is a culprit, will do everything to prove that person isn't the guilty one (see Ray Curtis case). I would imagine that Yukiko wouldn't take Conan's deductions lying down when it came to her friend. She had the time to talk it out with him as she prepared Conan's disguise and even after that she still can't reject Conan's words despite the time she was with Sharon.

[Scar Akai 65]

Sorry if I didn't express it clearly, but my point has always been that Sharon switched to Chris for two reasons:

1: Vermouth doesn't age, and she looks somewhere in her late 20s now, so it is easier for her to live as a younger person rather than the older Sharon which requires makeup.

2: Sharon is being investigated by the FBI for the crime 20 years ago and most likely recent crimes as well. By switching to Chris she has a clean record.

Vermouth planned on switching to Chris a long time ago because she has been working on creating a separate Chris identity for many years. (I believe her plans had been in the works for 10+ years.) At first, the reason could be entirely number 1 and maybe planning ahead in case two happened, but as she came under more investigation as Sharon, reason number 2 became important as well.

Vermouth didn't know that Jodie was the daughter of the FBI agent she killed twenty years ago during her Sharon disguise period and that Jodie had a sample of Vermouth's fingerprints. Vermouth also didn't count on Jodie figuring it out and proving that Sharon is Chris quickly. Jodie put two and two together and now the heat is back on Chris and she knows it because the FBI followed her to Japan and investigated her. Because she is being investigated as heavily as she is, Vermouth knows or at least strongly suspects the FBI figured out Sharon is Chris.

It might not have been convenient to the BO for Vermouth to lose her ability to move in high society. At the time, Vermouth thought she could get away with switching to Chris and killing off Sharon.

On what grounds would Chris be arrested if the FBI doesn't know Sharon is Chris? Remember, Chris has a clean record.

Jodie did what you said and believed it. Akai also believed it too based on Jodie's investigation. Jodie and Akai's view was age contradiction be damned, they are same person anyway and we'll figure out how she tricked everyone when we haul her in for questioning.

You are correct that it isn't strictly necessary, but it makes it far more believable for her to create a history for the person she is switching into. Vermouth is a master of disguise and the FBI knows this. Sharon doesn't conceal her disguise abilities, she openly used them in front of a crowd of people in the NY case. If Sharon disappeared and Chris appeared, the first logical thought would be that Vermouth disguised as Chris Vineyard and is wearing a mask. The apparent age difference doesn't matter if the FBI thinks it is all a mask.

Right, and my rebuttal was that Sharon doesn't need to be a second generation actress to break in when she has the BO's support. Kir became a TV personality easily despite having no background and Vermouth is both talented and beautiful, qualities needed for an actress.

Both are similar in that although both mom and child disguises existed simultaneously some time before, only after the death of the mother did the daughter come out and take center stage. Sharon's mom died after Sharon debuted on screen which coincides with Sharon receiving a lot of publicity. Vermouth hadn't studied under Toichi yet, so although she could likely disguise well back then, may not have had the confidence to pull off disguising as both mother and daughter after daughter has acquired some fame. In the most recent incarnation, Chris only appeared to act in screen plays and give interviews; her private life was a black box. Sharon meanwhile had a private life, although at her age (40s to 50s), her acting career was probably much slower giving time her to play Chris. Adding to the parallels, Sharon and Chris both lost their fathers as well: Sharon's father died in the fire at the time of her mother's death, Chris's father died after Sharon won an Oscar.

My point was that The "Sharon's mom/Sharon" story wasn't that different from the "Sharon/Chris" story, if Vermouth could pull off one, she could pull off the other.

The lack of info makes it impossible to prove that it happened, if Vermouth is Sharon's mom, it matches up nicely with the timeframe that Vermouth, as Sharon's mom, whatever her career was, took something in her twenties over fifty years ago that stopped her aging. It coincides with the start of the BO's project over 50 years ago, and her hatred for the Miyanos who may have been studying her and created APTX 4869 from their analysis.

I assume you mean "Sharon said to Yukiko". I feel the need to point out that what Sharon said about the timing and could be a lie and she could be backdating. (We have no idea when Sharon revealed Chris's existence to the world.) It doesn't matter though because even if Sharon created Chris over ten years ago, I already explained why she planned that far in advance at the top of this post in reason 1.

It's not a direct acknowledgment, but you can tell by the feeling of the scene and her lack of objection to Shinichi that she seems to accept it as a possibility. (It's V42-10 pages 4 and 5) Shinichi is the kind of person who, if he doesn't want to believe that someone he valued or trusted is a culprit, will do everything to prove that person isn't the guilty one (see Ray Curtis case). I would imagine that Yukiko wouldn't take Conan's deductions lying down when it came to her friend. She had the time to talk it out with him as she prepared Conan's disguise and even after that she still can't reject Conan's words despite the time she was with Sharon.

wow

[DetectiveSherry 2]

Thank you for summing up your argument. I've read through it and now I think I appreciate the reason 1. I'll give up the Vermouth became younger theory and support the Vermouth stopped aging theory. So it follows that it had been decided that Vermouth has to change her identity when she stopped aging and Chris also has to switch her cover to her daughter or someone when she reached to around 50 like Sharon, right? And so she cannot live her life as one person... Oh that's pitty. She must be angry with the Dr. Miyano's research. I like it. That makes sense.

But I disagree to the reason 2. I still doubt the FBI was involved in her switching. You mean it's not the reason she's decided to change her identity but just increased the need to do so right? But I even doubt the possibility for the following reasons.

My previous posts were rather ambiguous so I'll be more specific in my argument this time . The theory that the FBI's investigation increased her switching need, it entailes that 1)Vermouth was aware of the possibility that2)the FBI has identifed some of her crimes as her doing before her switching. I doubt this in two ways.

First, I'll discuss the part 1)Vermouth was aware of the possibility that the FBI has identified some of her crimes as her doing before her switching.　The reason that I find this unlikely is because she didn't extinguish Sharon before she switched to Chris.　If Vermouth as Sharon had already noticed that her crimes were revealed by the FBI she firstly should think of faking Sharon's death since there is a possibility that sharon might be arrested by the FBI, which threatens her life and also might result in the BO's existance being exposed to the public. How could she be that easygoing not to fake Sharon's death when she's aware of the possibility. You said

"It might not have been convenient to the BO for Vermouth to lose her ability to move in high society. " but it seems like that's not inconvenient to the BO because Vermouth as Chris is actually taking a rest now from her cover life. In Pisco's case when she said "I wanna rest for a while. I'll stay in Japan. There are some things that I need to take care of." Gin and Vodka didn't stop it. It seems like her acting life is not a order from the BO but she's doing it on her own decidson making.

On what grounds would Chris be arrested if the FBI doesn't know Sharon is Chris? Remember, Chris has a clean record.

Well, I assumed "Sharon" when I said "she".

it makes it far more believable for her to create a history for the person she is switching into.

I agree to the idea that Vermouth's double duty period was to make a separate identity for Chris since it's suspicious if one person disappreared and then someone new appears but I doubt that this is to make it harder for the FBI to reveal her switching.

Second, I'll discuss the part 2)Vermouth was aware of the possibility that the FBI has identified some of her crimes as her doing before her switching. As for her crime 20 years ago, the FBI(Jodie) first laid an eye on Vermouth as Chris when Jodie heard Vermouth's cathing phrase" A secret makes a woman woman." and considering the age contradiction they connected Chris to her mother Sharon Vinyard and confirmed that the crime 20 years ago was actually Sharon's doing. So that was after Vermouth switched to Chris and has nothing to do with her switching. And it's unlikely that the FBI had already suspected Sharon for the crime 20 years ago since if that's the case it follows that Vermouth as Sharon had already been arrested. I don't know what is required specifically to issue an arrest warrent but it seems like fingerprint matching is enough to do that. In Halloween Party case Jodie said "That's how I finally found the proof that could explain the mysterious fact(age contradiction) that prevented your arrest." So fingerprint macthing can enable the FBI to issue an arrest warrent. Unlike Chris, Sharon is not too young to have commited a crime 20 years ago and Jodie has a fingerprint on her father's glassees as a proof. Thus I doubt the part 2)the FBI has identified some of her crimes as her doing before her switching　And regarding her other crimes, even if the FBI don't have a proof(needed to issue an arrest warrent) to identify some past crimes as Sharon's doing the BO wouldn't allow her to keep Sharon identity if she was already in the process of being arrested. I thought it's their way to erase whoever could threatens the BO's existance.

I agree to the Vermouth stopped aging theory but I doubt which happeded 50 years ago in two ways.

Firstly the above theory entails that "Sharon" hadn't existed but I find that weird.

my rebuttal was that Sharon doesn't need to be a second generation actress to break in when she has the BO's support. Kir became a TV personality easily despite having no background and Vermouth is both talented and beautiful, qualities needed for an actress.

My point was a background as one's history and not a background as one's speciality when I said "it's weird that a star appears out of nowhere". Kir could use a resume to assure her background as Mizunashi Rena, who also hadn't existed. So it doesn't matter if "Mizunashi Rena" hadn't existed. Also the resume was revealed to be a cleverly disguised one later according to the FBI. So bacically the BO couldn't actually create one's background but they could just think of a good tricking way. On the other hand I think there's no resume in an entertaiment world. Suddenly a person appears in the world and make a debut on screen...? How could have she done that? That's where I have a question. What I feel weird is the phenomenon itself. I mean one should have some career before that. Seeing the way Sharon was speaking about her debut in a NY case I think Sharon's part on screen debut was not a tiny like without a line but rather big, at least memorable one, if not a lead part.

Also I think she wasn't lying when she said " My parents died on the day I debued, for which I'd had a tough time." After all I doubt that someone can make a screen debut without any training in advance. For me a TV personality job seems just ordinary and anyone could do the job such as interviewing a person and reading a script before a camera, which doesn't need a talent or skill.

You might have felt the surplus in this argument. This is where my conviction is. Sharon once said that "if there is such an existance as god shouldn't all honest hard working people be happy?" This is terriblly beside the point if we assume the speaker is a criminal. She should be killing a lot who are honest and working hard like Jodie's father. So I'm guessing that she was expressing herself when she was saying this line. Vermouth should have been honest and working hard before she joined the BO and I think that this line reffers to the period when she was getting an acting training before her debut on screen.

Secondly the theory includes Sharon's mom is Vermouth but if that's the case the time frame doesn't make sense.

if Vermouth is Sharon's mom, it matches up nicely with the timeframe that Vermouth, as Sharon's mom, whatever her career was, took something in her twenties over fifty years ago that stopped her aging. It coincides with the start of the BO's project over 50 years ago, and her hatred for the Miyanos who may have been studying her and created APTX 4869 from their analysis.

I think differently. The BO's project seems to have begun over 50 years ago but if that's something to do with the Vermouth stopped aging then that doesn't make sense. Vermouth as Sharon's mom must have been around 30 when she drank some medicine and stopped aging because she's now around that age. The manga says Chris Vinyard age 29 so whatever your perception tells you Vermouth is now 29 years old in this series' setting. But it takes 5 - 10 years(I think at least 10 years) for an adult to notice that one isn't aging at all. So when she and the BO realised that she isn't aging Vermouth must have been around 35 - 40 as Sharon's mom. And then the project had started but I think Vermouth kept Sharon's mom identity until she reached to around 50 since Vermouth kept Sharon's identity until that age, which I think means it is around 50 that makeup for disguising will be harder. So it was after 10 - 15 years after the project had started that Vermouth switched her cover to Sharon. And then how old did Vermouth set Sharon as for her age? She is around 30 but it doesn't matter if she set herself her late 20's, that could expand the period of being Sharon and hence save her swithing times. So let's just say that Vermouth created Sharon at the age of 25. Then there's more than 40 - 35 years left until the current timeline. And if we add the period to the age 25 it entails that sharon must be over 60 - 65 years old in the current timeline. However Sharon is around 50 and thus [the BO project and Vermouth noticed her aging stop at the same time theory] doesn't make sense. I think Sharon is under 60.

I feel the need to point out that what Sharon said about the timing and could be a lie and she could be backdating.

I thought I proved the timing is also a fact. If that was not clear enough I'll be more specific in this.

Sharon:"Can you believe it? My daughter was standing in front of my husband's grave disguised as him.

Yukiko:"Ah if I recall you were sayng that your daughter beged you to give her a disguising lesson.

Sharon: "I haven't met her since then. It's been about 10 years..."

If it's only Sharon's word it could be a lie but this time her words are assured by Yukiko. If Sharon's word "it's been about 10 years" was a lie then Yukiko would question on this. It doesn't make sense if she says she's been out of contact with her daughter for 10 years when she had contact with her and told her friend about it within 10 years.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Thank you for summing up your argument. I've read through it and now I think I appreciate the reason 1. I'll give up the Vermouth became younger theory and support the Vermouth stopped aging theory. So it follows that it had been decided that Vermouth has to change her identity when she stopped aging and Chris also has to switch her cover to her daughter or someone when she reached to around 50 like Sharon, right? And so she cannot live her life as one person... Oh that's pitty. She must be angry with the Dr. Miyano's research. I like it. That makes sense.

But I disagree to the reason 2. I still doubt the FBI was involved in her switching. You mean it's not the reason she's decided to change her identity but just increased the need to do so right? But I even doubt the possibility for the following reasons.

The Miyanos would have started research too late to have caused Vermouth's problem. Atsushi Miyano moved out of the house from the tape case (423-425) thirty years ago to go somewhere for his research. That's too young. Instead, I think something else stopped Vermouth's aging and the Org had the Miyanos research Vermouth to try to replicate what caused her to stop aging. Unfortunately this didn't produce a cure and frankly she has gotten tired of being forced to stand still in life and hide when everyone else moves on. (She's probably also tired of getting stabbed by two generations of Miyanos for samples.)

My previous posts were rather ambiguous so I'll be more specific in my argument this time . The theory that the FBI's investigation increased her switching need, it entailes that 1)Vermouth was aware of the possibility that2)the FBI has identifed some of her crimes as her doing before her switching. I doubt this in two ways.

First, I'll discuss the part 1)Vermouth was aware of the possibility that the FBI has identified some of her crimes as her doing before her switching.　The reason that I find this unlikely is because she didn't extinguish Sharon before she switched to Chris.　If Vermouth as Sharon had already noticed that her crimes were revealed by the FBI she firstly should think of faking Sharon's death since there is a possibility that sharon might be arrested by the FBI, which threatens her life and also might result in the BO's existance being exposed to the public. How could she be that easygoing not to fake Sharon's death when she's aware of the possibility. You said

"It might not have been convenient to the BO for Vermouth to lose her ability to move in high society. " but it seems like that's not inconvenient to the BO because Vermouth as Chris is actually taking a rest now from her cover life. In Pisco's case when she said "I wanna rest for a while. I'll stay in Japan. There are some things that I need to take care of." Gin and Vodka didn't stop it. It seems like her acting life is not a order from the BO but she's doing it on her own decidson making.

Well, I assumed "Sharon" when I said "she".

I agree to the idea that Vermouth's double duty period was to make a separate identity for Chris since it's suspicious if one person disappreared and then someone new appears but I doubt that this is to make it harder for the FBI to reveal her switching.

Second, I'll discuss the part 2)Vermouth was aware of the possibility that the FBI has identified some of her crimes as her doing before her switching. As for her crime 20 years ago, the FBI(Jodie) first laid an eye on Vermouth as Chris when Jodie heard Vermouth's cathing phrase" A secret makes a woman woman." and considering the age contradiction they connected Chris to her mother Sharon Vinyard and confirmed that the crime 20 years ago was actually Sharon's doing. So that was after Vermouth switched to Chris and has nothing to do with her switching. And it's unlikely that the FBI had already suspected Sharon for the crime 20 years ago since if that's the case it follows that Vermouth as Sharon had already been arrested. I don't know what is required specifically to issue an arrest warrent but it seems like fingerprint matching is enough to do that. In Halloween Party case Jodie said "That's how I finally found the proof that could explain the mysterious fact(age contradiction) that prevented your arrest." So fingerprint macthing can enable the FBI to issue an arrest warrent. Unlike Chris, Sharon is not too young to have commited a crime 20 years ago and Jodie has a fingerprint on her father's glassees as a proof. Thus I doubt the part 2)the FBI has identified some of her crimes as her doing before her switching　And regarding her other crimes, even if the FBI don't have a proof(needed to issue an arrest warrent) to identify some past crimes as Sharon's doing the BO wouldn't allow her to keep Sharon identity if she was already in the process of being arrested. I thought it's their way to erase whoever could threatens the BO's existance.

You are correct in saying that it was only after Sharon switched did Jodie uncover that she was the one who killed her father. However, I think there was reason to think that Sharon was an FBI target before her death. Why was Jodie at Sharon's funeral in the first place after all? My thoughts are that very late into the twenty years, the FBI began to look into Sharon Vineyard as a member of the Org, but not knowing she was the person who killed Jodie's dad. Akai Shuuichi had infiltrated the Org five years ago and was rejected two years before the current timeline. The info that tipped the FBI off that Sharon was someone to be interested in may have come from him. Sharon noticed the FBI moving around her and switched. After this, Jodie heard Chris at the funeral say "A secret makes a woman, woman". She realized after the switch that Chris was the person who killed her father, but was too young, etc.

I agree to the Vermouth stopped aging theory but I doubt which happeded 50 years ago in two ways.

Firstly the above theory entails that "Sharon" hadn't existed but I find that weird.

My point was a background as one's history and not a background as one's speciality when I said "it's weird that a star appears out of nowhere". Kir could use a resume to assure her background as Mizunashi Rena, who also hadn't existed. So it doesn't matter if "Mizunashi Rena" hadn't existed. Also the resume was revealed to be a cleverly disguised one later according to the FBI. So bacically the BO couldn't actually create one's background but they could just think of a good tricking way. On the other hand I think there's no resume in an entertaiment world. Suddenly a person appears in the world and make a debut on screen...? How could have she done that? That's where I have a question. What I feel weird is the phenomenon itself. I mean one should have some career before that. Seeing the way Sharon was speaking about her debut in a NY case I think Sharon's part on screen debut was not a tiny like without a line but rather big, at least memorable one, if not a lead part.

Also I think she wasn't lying when she said " My parents died on the day I debued, for which I'd had a tough time." After all I doubt that someone can make a screen debut without any training in advance. For me a TV personality job seems just ordinary and anyone could do the job such as interviewing a person and reading a script before a camera, which doesn't need a talent or skill.

I am kind of confused about what you are trying to say here. I think you are saying Kir could have falsified her resume in order to get herself into showbiz, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about the BO.

I am pretty sure that the BO could falsify a resume if they wanted. I am not saying Sharon just starred out of nowhere with no prior acting experience. What I am saying is the BO wanted her to become an actress, so she started an acting career, and because of her natural talent and the BO's power helping in the background, she got good positions and quickly worked her way up into a position where she could take lead roles.

Remember, Vermouth is one of the most capable BO members out there. Soon after meeting Conan and Haibara, she found a target, Dr. Araide, to swap with close to them, staked him out, learned his habits and background, switched with him, and began doing his fulltime job. While she has a full time job running the clinic and being the Teitan nurse, at the same time she starts looking for the FBI who came after her. She steals and returns Kogoro's records to lure out the FBI and stakes them out to find where they live, how many there are, and how to contact them (42-9, 11). Then she goes online, tracks down a suitable target she can blackmail into committing a murder, gets all sort of background info on a random guy, all while executing her plan to capture Haibara, keeping abreast of the FBI's movements, and working a full time doctor's job. And most likely Vermouth did most of this work by herself.

If she has the ability to work this hard to get Haibara, then she could have worked hard to be an actress.

You might have felt the surplus in this argument. This is where my conviction is. Sharon once said that "if there is such an existance as god shouldn't all honest hard working people be happy?" This is terriblly beside the point if we assume the speaker is a criminal. She should be killing a lot who are honest and working hard like Jodie's father. So I'm guessing that she was expressing herself when she was saying this line. Vermouth should have been honest and working hard before she joined the BO and I think that this line reffers to the period when she was getting an acting training before her debut on screen.

Or she could have been saying ironic things. Or maybe she was referring to her job when she was still in the Sharon's mother before her anti aging accident?

Secondly the theory includes Sharon's mom is Vermouth but if that's the case the time frame doesn't make sense.

I think differently. The BO's project seems to have begun over 50 years ago but if that's something to do with the Vermouth stopped aging then that doesn't make sense. Vermouth as Sharon's mom must have been around 30 when she drank some medicine and stopped aging because she's now around that age. The manga says Chris Vinyard age 29 so whatever your perception tells you Vermouth is now 29 years old in this series' setting. But it takes 5 - 10 years(I think at least 10 years) for an adult to notice that one isn't aging at all. So when she and the BO realised that she isn't aging Vermouth must have been around 35 - 40 as Sharon's mom. And then the project had started but I think Vermouth kept Sharon's mom identity until she reached to around 50 since Vermouth kept Sharon's identity until that age, which I think means it is around 50 that makeup for disguising will be harder. So it was after 10 - 15 years after the project had started that Vermouth switched her cover to Sharon. And then how old did Vermouth set Sharon as for her age? She is around 30 but it doesn't matter if she set herself her late 20's, that could expand the period of being Sharon and hence save her swithing times. So let's just say that Vermouth created Sharon at the age of 25. Then there's more than 40 - 35 years left until the current timeline. And if we add the period to the age 25 it entails that sharon must be over 60 - 65 years old in the current timeline. However Sharon is around 50 and thus [the BO project and Vermouth noticed her aging stop at the same time theory] doesn't make sense. I think Sharon is under 60.

So here is an example version of a timeline for Vermouth where I have tried to keep Vermouth's age real age to a minimum. There is more flexibility if Vermouth is actually older.

•Vermouth is ~25-30 (55-60 years before the current timeline) - Something halts Vermouth's aging.

You could call this the project start date even though it may have been going on before and Vermouth may not know she was not aging yet. The reason is that if Vermouth was exposed to something that halts aging, someone around her responsible for getting her exposed is likely to be working on a project with the intent of lengthening lifespan or something like that.

•Vermouth is ~30-35 (50-55 years before the current timeline) Vermouth realizes she is not aging and she now knows she is going to need a false identity to become or else people around her are going to start to notice.

Creating a false child identity isn't as hard as it sounds back then because there were no electronic records that are easy to check on and with bribery, fake papers, and whatnot, it's possible to create a proper paper trail especially if she has the Black Org's help (or what will become the Black Org). Vermouth could pretend her child was adopted or something like that at an older age so she could switch in sooner. You could also assume this was the project start date as well.

In the ~20 year interim between her current state she could become Sharon, she could work on disguise and acting, skills necessary for being an actress and for creating the appearance of a daughter if necessary.

•Vermouth is ~50-55 (30-35 years before the current timeline) Vermouth now has the ability to swap into her Sharon role who aged to approximately just graduated from high school age.

She rises to stardom and kills off Sharon's mom when she debuts in a movie and takes up Sharon's role in full. She starts working on backdating the Chris identity I assume by faking a pregnancy or something like that.

The Miyanos start their research 30 years prior to the current timeline.

Vermouth kills Jodie's father 20 years prior to the current timeline.

~20 years ago Sharon learns disguise from Kuroba Toichi (Yukiko learned disguise back when she was a beginning actress. She started her career while in high-school. Yukiko is 37)

•Vermouth is ~70-75 (~10 years before the current timeline) Chris has become old enough to disguise as because role has aged to approximately just graduated from high school age. She begins to work on Chris's stardom, but keeps Chris's private life a secret

•Vermouth is ~80-85 (<1 years before the current timeline) Vermouth kills off Sharon and takes up Chris full time.

I thought I proved the timing is also a fact. If that was not clear enough I'll be more specific in this.

Sharon:"Can you believe it? My daughter was standing in front of my husband's grave disguised as him.

Yukiko:"Ah if I recall you were sayng that your daughter beged you to give her a disguising lesson.

Sharon: "I haven't met her since then. It's been about 10 years..."

If it's only Sharon's word it could be a lie but this time her words are assured by Yukiko. If Sharon's word "it's been about 10 years" was a lie then Yukiko would question on this. It doesn't make sense if she says she's been out of contact with her daughter for 10 years when she had contact with her and told her friend about it within 10 years.

The thing is Yukiko did not "assure her words" as you said. Yukiko said "You once told me you taught Chris disguising techniques because she begged for them." Sharon replies "I haven't seen her for almost ten years... All I know is she is hanging out with a bad crowd. Anyway lets go park the car and get to the dressing room already. Besides those patrons are starting to notice that there is no camera running...." Basically Sharon switched the subject so there was no chance for Yukiko to affirm the ten years thing.

Let me point out I'm not disagreeing with the original point that Sharon worked on creating Chris over 10 years ago, only pointing out you can't rely on what Yukiko says because she heard it through Sharon.

Sorry for the long post and if it has grammar mistakes. It took a long time to finish and I just wanted to get it over with.

[Alleangean1412 2]

Actually the truth is that Vermouth has been two people.

First it was Sharon Vineyard, then it was Chris Vineyard.

They keep changing their roles i guess

[DetectiveSherry 2]

The Miyanos would have started research too late to have caused Vermouth's problem. Atsushi Miyano moved out of the house from the tape case (423-425) thirty years ago to go somewhere for his research. That's too young. Instead, I think something else stopped Vermouth's aging and the Org had the Miyanos research Vermouth to try to replicate what caused her to stop aging. Unfortunately this didn't produce a cure and frankly she has gotten tired of being forced to stand still in life and hide when everyone else moves on. (She's probably also tired of getting stabbed by two generations of Miyanos for samples.)

But Vermouth said "if you(Sherry) want to blame, blame your parents who started this foolish research". She didn't say "your parents who took over this foolish research" but said "who started". So I think it's the Miyanos who did a research which resulted in Vermouth having sttoped aging. I guess her anger has something to do with her aging problem and that she has a hatred toward the Miyanos.

You are correct in saying that it was only after Sharon switched did Jodie uncover that she was the one who killed her father. However, I think there was reason to think that Sharon was an FBI target before her death. Why was Jodie at Sharon's funeral in the first place after all? My thoughts are that very late into the twenty years, the FBI began to look into Sharon Vineyard as a member of the Org, but not knowing she was the person who killed Jodie's dad. Akai Shuuichi had infiltrated the Org five years ago and was rejected two years before the current timeline. The info that tipped the FBI off that Sharon was someone to be interested in may have come from him. Sharon noticed the FBI moving around her and switched. After this, Jodie heard Chris at the funeral say "A secret makes a woman, woman". She realized after the switch that Chris was the person who killed her father, but was too young, etc.

So you agree to the idea that her switching has nothing to do with her crime 20 years ago? And I think the reason Jodie was at Sharon's funeral is because Sharon is such a big star and so Jodie might have got an interest to attend her funeral. If she had already noticed that the FBI was investigating her she shouldn't have had time to play two roles at the same time for the reason I discussed before. My point is that she could indeed escape from the FBI by the switching but that's not what she had intended.

I am kind of confused about what you are trying to say here. I think you are saying Kir could have falsified her resume in order to get herself into showbiz, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about the BO.

I am pretty sure that the BO could falsify a resume if they wanted. I am not saying Sharon just starred out of nowhere with no prior acting experience. What I am saying is the BO wanted her to become an actress, so she started an acting career, and because of her natural talent and the BO's power helping in the background, she got good positions and quickly worked her way up into a position where she could take lead roles.

Remember, Vermouth is one of the most capable BO members out there. Soon after meeting Conan and Haibara, she found a target, Dr. Araide, to swap with close to them, staked him out, learned his habits and background, switched with him, and began doing his fulltime job. While she has a full time job running the clinic and being the Teitan nurse, at the same time she starts looking for the FBI who came after her. She steals and returns Kogoro's records to lure out the FBI and stakes them out to find where they live, how many there are, and how to contact them (42-9, 11). Then she goes online, tracks down a suitable target she can blackmail into committing a murder, gets all sort of background info on a random guy, all while executing her plan to capture Haibara, keeping abreast of the FBI's movements, and working a full time doctor's job. And most likely Vermouth did most of this work by herself.

If she has the ability to work this hard to get Haibara, then she could have worked hard to be an actress.

I'm sorry to have made you comfused. My direct question is How the BO specifically could help Sharon to make a debut? In Kir's case it was to falsify a resume and in Chris's case it was just to show her as a second generation actress. I mean usually people should have some entertaiment careers before they get a chance of screen debut.

But as for a talent or skill needed to debut on screen, I think I was too realistic considering this point. You offered various cases which demonstrate Vermouth's competency and I thought Dr Araide's case has its sense. I came to realise that after all it is quite difficult to assert specifically that what is the possible and what is the impossible in a DC world. For example there is a problem that Ai and Conan could enter an elementary school when they don't have an extract of their family register. Now come to think of it that's just for convenience to the author and is showing that however weird it may look that kind of things could happen on DC.

Or she could have been saying ironic things. Or maybe she was referring to her job when she was still in the Sharon's mother before her anti aging accident?

But seeing the way Sharon was speaking, how the air change when Ran said "I have to thank God a lot", and the way Gosyo described the scene, I think she was not in an ironic mood. And though there is no evidence what the line(Shouldn't all honest hard working people be happy) refers to I think anyway Vermouth had been honest and working hard before she joined the BO.

You could call this the project start date even though it may have been going on before and Vermouth may not know she was not aging yet. The reason is that if Vermouth was exposed to something that halts aging, someone around her responsible for getting her exposed is likely to be working on a project with the intent of lengthening lifespan or something like that.

So the project had started when she drank in some medicine or before that. Then there's no time contradiction and no problem regarding the timeframe.

The thing is Yukiko did not "assure her words" as you said. Yukiko said "You once told me you taught Chris disguising techniques because she begged for them." Sharon replies "I haven't seen her for almost ten years... All I know is she is hanging out with a bad crowd. Anyway lets go park the car and get to the dressing room already. Besides those patrons are starting to notice that there is no camera running...." Basically Sharon switched the subject so there was no chance for Yukiko to affirm the ten years thing.

Let me point out I'm not disagreeing with the original point that Sharon worked on creating Chris over 10 years ago, only pointing out you can't rely on what Yukiko says because she heard it through Sharon.

Well I meant since there is Yukiko, who could question on Sharon's words about her daughter She cannot tell a lie and I descrobed that "Her words can be assured by Yukiko". And since the script writer didn't fix the point through yukiko it can be said that the timing is also a fact.

[Aeyra 260]

My theory is that somebody developed a special immortality drug meant to grant immortality, and they wanted a guinea pig. It probably wasn't originally Vermouth however, but when 'Sharon Vineyard' got caught in a fire and nearly fatally injured, she was given the drug to test it's effect. It ended up reversing her age to her prime and keeping her there for eternity... How does that sound? Semi-plausible? APTX 4869 just sounds like too weird a theory; Gin said Shinichi was the first tester, and it wasn't finished until most likely just a month before that. She's been Chris for a couple of years now.

[Scar Akai 65]

My theory is that somebody developed a special immortality drug meant to grant immortality, and they wanted a guinea pig. It probably wasn't originally Vermouth however, but when 'Sharon Vineyard' got caught in a fire and nearly fatally injured, she was given the drug to test it's effect. It ended up reversing her age to her prime and keeping her there for eternity... How does that sound? Semi-plausible? APTX 4869 just sounds like too weird a theory; Gin said Shinichi was the first tester, and it wasn't finished until most likely just a month before that. She's been Chris for a couple of years now.

But Chris was Chris before Shinichi is Conan

[BK201 31]

My opinion is that Vermouth drank APTX 4869 without telling the Org. 'A secret makes a woman, woman' is her famous quote right? maybe she applied it here. and maybe that is why she's the boss' favorite because they have to know the cause of her 'immortality'. Well, just a thought...

[cheesecake1412 0]

but i still not believe that vermouth is sharon.!