Morality in Detective Conan cases

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

This has been talked about a little in other threads, but I suppose it deserves a separate topic by itself:

What do you think about the tear-jerking stories of the murderers in most of the DC cases? I mean, they are almost always reduced to such a pitiful state by the “victims” who often massacre their families or friends that I really have an extremely hard time to understand how does Conan (and therefore, Gosho) and some fans manage to stay cold and indifferent when the murderers confess the crime and tell about their dear ones, dead because of the so-called “victims”. In my opinion, it’s too simplistic and convenient for some irresponsible people to just say “murder is wrong and everything else doesn’t matter”. I understand that, if somebody is unable to feel pity or compassion, it’s useless to tell them this attitude is no better than the act of murder, but still, putting ALL murderers in the same category, like a terrorist who blows up schools full of children and a desperate mother who takes revenge on who raped and killed her daughter is a logic from another planet to me. I am not saying that killing somebody is a right thing to do, but simply saying “my job is only to discover the truth, expose the guilty one and who cares about the rest” in my opinion is an extremely egoistic approach to the matter.

Sorry if somebody feels offended, I am not attacking any fan personally, but lately I happened to read and watch too many detective stories that ended in this way. The fact that many people seem to make the wrong conclusions from the stories, not those that the author probably would have wanted (at least it seems so to me) makes me very sad. I personally am completely unable to remain cold and heartless when somebody cries while talking about their loved ones being dead, I always feel sorry even when I read that a mafia boss cries because his father has been killed.

 

To sum it up, does anybody else think that Conan would be a better character if he at least acknowledged the fact that the situations he is investigating are very unjust, and not because the scumbags have been killed, but because good people's lives have been ruined and they became criminals themselves out of despair? One doesn't have to justify the act of murder to feel pity for the guilty ones. Life has punished them when they didn't deserve it, and they will go to prison, so what's the need to treat them like dirt while talking to them at the end of the stories?

 

I hope you will understand what I am saying, as this subject is very important to me.

[Kentjr 0]

I think the situation for Conan lies more on catching the criminal. Conan isn't the law, but he follows the law. This kind of situation is similar to the police system in real life. The cops are merely there to uphold the law, but they do not sentence you. The judicial system is there for that reason. I do think that his mentality on the issue could be a little less black and white. But I think that they do it to progress the show. Conan only seeks the truth. There have been instances where his logic had been blinded, but in the end to him a criminal is a criminal. I would definitely like to see them expand on Conan's views for sure. It's just way too solid, and dare I say unrealistic for a show such as this one.

[AndrewA 5]

As I just said in another thread, it is up to the justice system to take into account extenuating circumstances.  At least in America, the prosecutor can offer a plea bargain to allow the killer to plead guilty to a lesser crime than murder, such as manslaughter.  Also, the judge or the jury that hands out the sentence (whichever does it in Japan) can choose to give the minimum sentence for the crime instead of the maximum.

In Japan, some murderers can be executed, but most aren't.  The serial killer or the terrorist that blows up a school or kills a dozen police officers is probably going to be executed or spend life in prison.  The man that kills the gangster that is extorting money from his aged mother will probably be sentenced to 15-20 years in prison and maybe get out early if he behaves well and can convince the parole board or whatever they have in Japan that he has reformed and will never kill again.

Indeed, there is a least one case where the girlfriend/boyfriend (can't remember which) of the accused says that he/she will be wait for the accused and be there for him/her when he/she gets out of jail.  On at least one occasion, Mouri recommended to the accused the services of his wife as a defense lawyer, which clearly indicates his sympathy.   I think that might be the same case where the accused is someone that had just gotten out of prison after serving time for a previous killing, which provides additional evidence that many of the more sympathetic murders in the world of Detective Conan will have the chance to reform and start life anew.

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

As I just said in another thread, it is up to the justice system to take into account extenuating circumstances.  At least in America, the prosecutor can offer a plea bargain to allow the killer to plead guilty to a lesser crime than murder, such as manslaughter.  Also, the judge or the jury that hands out the sentence (whichever does it in Japan) can choose to give the minimum sentence for the crime instead of the maximum.

In Japan, some murderers can be executed, but most aren't.  The serial killer or the terrorist that blows up a school or kills a dozen police officers is probably going to be executed or spend life in prison.  The man that kills the gangster that is extorting money from his aged mother will probably be sentenced to 15-20 years in prison and maybe get out early if he behaves well and can convince the parole board or whatever they have in Japan that he has reformed and will never kill again.

Indeed, there is a least one case where the girlfriend/boyfriend (can't remember which) of the accused says that he/she will be wait for the accused and be there for him/her when he/she gets out of jail.  On at least one occasion, Mouri recommended to the accused the services of his wife as a defense lawyer, which clearly indicates his sympathy.   I think that might be the same case where the accused is someone that had just gotten out of prison after serving time for a previous killing, which provides additional evidence that many of the more sympathetic murders in the world of Detective Conan will have the chance to reform and start life anew.

 

I agree, the thing that annoys me is just that Conan often reads morals to the criminals in a harsh tone. In my opinion, just arresting them would be enough. Most of the real guilty ones in DC are never touched by the law until the "avengers" kill them. It's not like they kill them because they think they are above the law, in most of the cases they initially try to obtain justice legally, and turn violent only after they know 100% that the law enforcement won't help them.

[yoya 4]

i think what conan stands up for is justice and justice only , even if the one getting killed are scumbags , you shouldn't feel sorry for a killer he had a choice , and he choosed the wrong path , you can't go ahead and kill people if life was unfair. but you know what drive me crazy is when someone is murdered, and his friends are like "oh its okay lets rest in our rooms till the police is here" what are you people made of your best friend just got killed ! not a single tear?

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

i think what conan stands up for is justice and justice only , even if the one getting killed are scumbags , you shouldn't feel sorry for a killer he had a choice , and he choosed the wrong path , you can't go ahead and kill people if life was unfair. but you know what drive me crazy is when someone is murdered, and his friends are like "oh its okay lets rest in our rooms till the police is here" what are you people made of your best friend just got killed ! not a single tear?

 

It's not really justice if the ones who started everything by killing innocents are never punished by the law in DC and only those who "dare" to take revenge are punished. Also, I think that we should feel sorry for people who cry because their fathers/mothers were killed by the "victims". I felt sorry even for the Canadian mafia boss Vito Rizzuto whose family and friends were slaughtered while he was in prison in the USA, but that doesn't mean I like the mafia. I mean, if somebody cries for his family, it's quite grotesque to treat him harshly, the fact that he will go to jail is perfectly enough. Most murderers in DC act out of despair, they either go crazy or kill, and ending up in prison won't be a punishment, but a sort of relief for them I think, as their life isn't really "life" anymore after what happened to their dear ones.

[yoya 4]

but, lets say a mafia killed my father, and i killed the mafia's boss, and the boss' son killed my family , we would be living in a jungle don't you think ? even if the law and order in life isn't perfect and doesn't punish every criminal and perform justice perfectly, you can go out and kill people for the name of justice, you're then just as bad as thy are

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

but, lets say a mafia killed my father, and i killed the mafia's boss, and the boss' son killed my family , we would be living in a jungle don't you think ? even if the law and order in life isn't perfect and doesn't punish every criminal and perform justice perfectly, you can go out and kill people for the name of justice, you're then just as bad as thy are

 

Yes, but not feeling compassion also makes us as bad as they are. In my opinion, a detective should arrest criminals, but shouldn't humiliate or kick down (in a figurative sense of the word) the arrested ones, they have already suffered enough without deserving it. Have you seen the series "Kindaichi shounen no Jikenbo"? This series is very similar to Conan, but the detective feels sorry for the sad situations of the guilty ones. He arrests them, but he is sorry for them, he visits them in prison sometimes and assures them they aren't just discarded by society.

[yoya 4]

yeah you got point but i think they just make him feel angry by trying to make the crime sounds reasonable 

[AnitaHailey00 5]

Sorry, but I really don't remember Conan humiliating the people much; the only one I could really remember is the "Memories of First Love" case, where he (using Kogoro), yells at him. That was a pretty good reason, in my opinion. And he does show compassion sometimes, like in "A Stalker's Murder Case", where he told the murderer that they would probably take extenuating circumstances
into consideration.

 

Also, in japan, they do take into account the motive and how remorseful the murderer is. So, the people that felt really bad about it would probably go to jail for less time.

[AndrewA 5]

Also, I think some of the lecturing tone is for the benefit of the audience, especially any kids reading.  I think the creators of DC don't want to get blamed for giving the people the idea that there are good reasons to commit murder.

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

Also, I think some of the lecturing tone is for the benefit of the audience, especially any kids reading.  I think the creators of DC don't want to get blamed for giving the people the idea that there are good reasons to commit murder.

 

This makes sense, but why are the victims almost always much worse than the murderers then? If the morals are to teach the value of human life, why are almost all the victims extremely hard (if not impossible) to sympathize with?

[AndrewA 5]

"why are almost all the victims extremely hard (if not impossible) to sympathize with?"

Because nice people normally don't have at least three different people who would are not normally likely murder suspects but each have distinct motives for wanting to kill them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssholeVictim

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SympatheticMurderer

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

"why are almost all the victims extremely hard (if not impossible) to sympathize with?"

Because nice people normally don't have at least three different people who would are not normally likely murder suspects but each have distinct motives for wanting to kill them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssholeVictim

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SympatheticMurderer

 

Nice people can also be killed. For example, witnesses to crimes, businessmen who "annoy" their business rivals, house owners who surprise thieves during burglaries, people get killed during robberies, for jealousy etc. I am asking myself why Gosho (and many other Japanese writers) tend to avoid such plots.

And, even when the victims aren't nice people, why are they never eliminated by accomplices, but always by people whom they made suffer?

[AndrewA 5]

Short answer is that it is a mystery fiction thing, not necessarily a Japanese thing.  See the TV Tropes links.  

 

Anyway, there are exceptions, both in this series and others.  

[Ren-kun 50]

Nice people can also be killed. For example, witnesses to crimes, businessmen who "annoy" their business rivals, house owners who surprise thieves during burglaries, people get killed during robberies, for jealousy etc. I am asking myself why Gosho (and many other Japanese writers) tend to avoid such plots.

And, even when the victims aren't nice people, why are they never eliminated by accomplices, but always by people whom they made suffer?

I've wondered about this quite a bit in the past as well.

 

It's a terribly shallow viewpoint but I do think it's to have a more compelling and gripping story/plot. Stories need a certain amount of drama and angst to be able to hold an audience.

 

As for the 'nice people don't get killed on the show' you were talking about, I agree with what AndrewA mentioned and I think killing off sympathetic and pleasant characters isn't exactly in the nature of a manga like DC. It's market is still Shonen and a big chunk of the audience are young people (I talk like I'm past middle-aged. XD). It's not entirely realistic so from what I could gather, I think Gosho just didn't want to glamorize the killings of innocent and 'nice' people. At least with the unagreeable ones, it's more logical for them to be killed as harsh as that might sound.

[fangirlwhocanspell 3]

I think in Conan's eyes, the law isn't meant to serve the people, it's to govern the people, to set a standard. The standard is, you cannot commit murder. What's the exception to that? You cannot commit murder, unless you feel as though they deserved it. or You cannot commit murder unless the person assaulted you. You cannot commit murder except maybe if they killed someone you know etc etc. Is this a "slippery slope", where once one exception is made, one tiny step down the hill, you'll fall down the entire side of the hill straight to the bottom? The law is where the line is drawn- the law isn't grey or in shades. It's black and white, right and wrong. Murder is wrong, period, there are no extenuating factors in a law.

Shinichi says something like this, "no matter what the reason, i don't understand why you would kill someone". does it signal that he just can't think with his heart? the emotional side of things.

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

 The law is where the line is drawn- the law isn't grey or in shades. It's black and white, right and wrong. Murder is wrong, period, there are no extenuating factors in a law.

 

Honestly, I am very saddened you think like this. Saying this is like justifying what the victims did. You or Conan say "you can't commit murder", yet you seem to apply this only to "avengers", not to their "victims". There ARE extenuating circumstances in laws, even from a judiciary point of view, not just the moral one, otherwise people would get life sentences for ANY murder they committed, both for killing a child or killing a terrorist. And, as I said, not feeling any compassion for somebody who cries for the murdered family, makes us no better than criminals. How can somebody just say "Conan is right, they don't deserve compassion" is beyond my comprehension. This is cruel, and I think we shouldn't be cruel. You can't judge people who have suffered without ever having been in their situation.

[AndrewA 5]

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but you seem to be characterizing the majority of the cases as revenge for murder.  I don't think that is the case.  The majority are either killing for personal gain or killing in revenge jerkish or unethical behavior that falls well below the level of a capital crime.

 

For example, there have been any number of cases where people killed someone for stealing their ideas, whether it was a professor publishing his student's discoveries as his own, an master selling his apprentices' art as his own, etc.  Yeah, the victim was a jerk, but can we really say that plagiarism deserves the death penalty?  

 

There has been at least one case I can remember off the top of my head where a husband killed his wife because she was going to leave him and her child.  While his version of what she said about not caring for her child for her child might sound pretty harsh, we only have his side of the story, and at any rate, wanting a divorce is hardly a capital crime.  A wife is not a husband't possession that he can kill if she displeases him.  Also, while it sucks for the kid to have his parents divorced (though many people have grown up reasonably functional and happy in spite of divorced parents) it sucks even more to have his mother be murdered by his father.

Also, keep in mind that in almost all these cases, we have only seen the murder's side of the story.  We rarely get to see the defense that the victim would have offered against the charges.  Even if the murderer has solid evidence that  his/her victim was actually guilty of what the murder thinks the victim is guilty of, and if the victim's actions do in fact require punishment, why not go to the police, or to some other authority (such as university officials in the case of the professor plagiarism cases)?  We almost never see a murder say that they had already tried going to the police.  We also rarely see a case where the murder had already tried using one of the many famous detectives in this universe, such as Mouri, Kudo, Heiji etc., to catch the person they think is a criminal, rather than taking the law into their own hands.

 Punishing crimes, even murder, is not the responsibility or right of individuals.  One person can't be investigator, prosecutor, judge and jury.  And what if they got it wrong?  Certainly there have been cases where a murderer killed a lover or an ex-lover because they thought the lover hated them, only to find out that this was not the case?  Remember the story about the comedy duo that was also lovers?  The woman killed the male because the male had been pressuring her to quit comedy because of her bad heart,  and he had stated his intention to break up the act with her.  She killed him because she thought he had been using her and held her in contempt.  In fact he intended to marry her, and wanted her to retire from comedy to be his wife, and to protect her health.  

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

I agree that murder shouldn't be justified, at least in the majority of cases, and I agree not all killings are revenge for murder. My point wasn't that killing is right or wrong, but that most of the murderers in DC deserve compassion from the human point of view, even if the right thing is sending them to jail. Sending them to jail may be the right thing, but not having compassion is wrong in my opinion. At least I got the impression that the author wants us to think about the situations not being "black and white" at all.

[DetectiveKir 6]

I can agree with Conan's morality, because he's consistent with it, and because it's clear that he doesn't want to be able to understand why people murder in any situation. When I talk about consistency, the first case that came to mind is the Osaka 3'ks case, when he convicted Ray. Even though you can tell he admired Ray, and wanted him to be innocent more than anything, he probably gave Ray his harshest speech/critique, even after Ray was using his wife as the excuse for why he committed murder. His exact words were ""Stop it, Ray! Even if you're facing the bitter aspect of life, drugs and murder are foul without any excuse. Deserve a red card, for a loser", in fact he didn't even let Ray finish his speech to try and justify his murder. So my thinking is that if he can maintian that sense of morality even in a situation like that, involving his idol, then I can't argue with his morality. Also I think that quote sums up one of the biggest aspects of Conan's morality, the fact that even though Murder often stems from seeing the bitterest evils of Humanity, murder can never be justified, because by it's very nature it's foul. Actually his morality reminds me a lot of the guys from Criminal minds, but that's different story lol.

 

In fact I think Mouri made a quote early on in the series, that really sums up where all the detectives in the series are coming from, he said " I'll never understand no matter the reason what drives someone to murder. And I don't think I want to." It's not that the detectives in the series can't comprehend the reasons people give for committing murder, its that's they simply can't and don't want to understand why someone would actually end a person's life in any situation. To guys like Shinichi and Heiji it's what keeps them human, and separates them from the criminals they spend their lives trying to catch. 

 

I think Shinichi said is perfectly in episode 191 " It's disappointing. No Matter the explanation i think of, I cannot understand why one person would kill another. Even If I can see why, I can't understand why."
 

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

I can agree with Conan's morality, because he's consistent with it, and because it's clear that he doesn't want to be able to understand why people murder in any situation. When I talk about consistency, the first case that came to mind is the Osaka 3'ks case, when he convicted Ray. Even though you can tell he admired Ray, and wanted him to be innocent more than anything, he probably gave Ray his harshest speech/critique, even after Ray was using his wife as the excuse for why he committed murder. His exact words were ""Stop it, Ray! Even if you're facing the bitter aspect of life, drugs and murder are foul without any excuse. Deserve a red card, for a loser", in fact he didn't even let Ray finish his speech to try and justify his murder. So my thinking is that if he can maintian that sense of morality even in a situation like that, involving his idol, then I can't argue with his morality. Also I think that quote sums up one of the biggest aspects of Conan's morality, the fact that even though Murder often stems from seeing the bitterest evils of Humanity, murder can never be justified, because by it's very nature it's foul. Actually his morality reminds me a lot of the guys from Criminal minds, but that's different story lol.

 

In fact I think Mouri made a quote early on in the series, that really sums up where all the detectives in the series are coming from, he said " I'll never understand no matter the reason what drives someone to murder. And I don't think I want to." It's not that the detectives in the series can't comprehend the reasons people give for committing murder, its that's they simply can't and don't want to understand why someone would actually end a person's life in any situation. To guys like Shinichi and Heiji it's what keeps them human, and separates them from the criminals they spend their lives trying to catch. 

 

I think Shinichi said is perfectly in episode 191 " It's disappointing. No Matter the explanation i think of, I cannot understand why one person would kill another. Even If I can see why, I can't understand why."

 

 

But being like that is plain cruel, that makes him no better that the criminals he is after. How can he pretend to be better than them, if he doesn't want to understand their motives? How can he be so arrogant to allow himself to judge them WITHOUT EVER HAVING BEEN IN THEIR SITUATION? 

As I said, it's like justifying what the victims did. What would be the point of the juridical concept of extenuating circumstances and the defense lawyer profession if the motive didn't matter? And please don't tell me that the only possible extenuating circumstance is self-defense.

And I don't agree the very nature of ANY murder is foul. While I agree it's a bad thing, the most foul things are those people who create the situations in which somebody ever wants to commit murder out of revenge. They are the masterminds and the source of evil in DC, the avenging murderers are just the consequence of their horrible actions. If the "victims" did nothing, there would be no desperate and violent reaction. Of course, I am talking about fiction, because in real life such crimes are quite rare, that would be a different story.

 

Nor Conan nor the police in DC realize that, had they punished ALL criminals in time, not just those who kill for revenge, many crimes wouldn't have happened. Otherwise, the impression I get is something like "it's ok when a murderer of a child isn't punished, because there was no proof, therefore he isn't guilty, but if somebody DARES to take revenge, then the whole justice machinery will unleash its wrath at him at once". It seems to me Conan's logic is warped. I am not saying he is a bad guy, but this particular characteristic of his seems extremely hypocritical to me.

 

I still think that not having a feeling of compassion for somebody who cries about the injustices is a behavior worthy of satan himself.

[DetectiveKir 6]

But being like that is plain cruel, that makes him no better that the criminals he is after. How can he pretend to be better than them, if he doesn't want to understand their motives? How can he be so arrogant to allow himself to judge them WITHOUT EVER HAVING BEEN IN THEIR SITUATION? 

As I said, it's like justifying what the victims did. What would be the point of the juridical concept of extenuating circumstances and the defense lawyer profession if the motive didn't matter? And please don't tell me that the only possible extenuating circumstance is self-defense.

And I don't agree the very nature of ANY murder is foul. While I agree it's a bad thing, the most foul things are those people who create the situations in which somebody ever wants to commit murder out of revenge. If the "victims" did nothing, there would be no desperate and violent reaction. Of course, I am talking about fiction, because in real life such crimes are quite rare, that would be a different story.

I don't think he has to be in their exact situation to understand. Conan's seen his loved ones held hostage, he's been threatened with a gun, he's seen hundreds of deaths, and he's seen the worse humanity has to offer, so he fully understands the emotions that could lead someone to murder. But he doesn't understand how or why anyone would ever make that choice. That's what makes him better than them. Everyone in the world experiences hate or anger, everyone experiences terrible situations, but everyone has a choice to be better than that. 

 

 

I don't think justifying what the victims did, is the same as punishing/lecturing the criminal for their crime. Those are two different situations, that have to be looked at independently. Just because someone commited a crime against you, doesn't mean you have the right to commit a crime against them. Conan morality is such, that he would look at the victim for their crime, the same way he looks at the murderer for their crime. Both of their actions are just as bad, because as he sees it Murder is foul regardless of the situation, because it just creates more sadness, more death, and more hatred, and that can never be justified.

 

Self defense is one of the few times, when the circumstances are actually justified. In most situations in the Conan world at least, the best course of action would be to put it into the hands of the justice system.

 

Conan's morality bets on the fact that Human's can put their morality over petty things such as revenge and hatred. 

[Hobgoblin2012 49]

Still, not feeling compassion is a horrible thing in my opinion. He sends them to jail, but jail doesn't solve every problem. If creatures like the "victims" aren't prosecuted, the revenge killings will never end, and Conan never pays much attention to those characters until they are killed. How can somebody be cold and indifferent when he has a person in front of him who genuinely cry, and still be able to have positive feelings like love for Ran or his parents is a weird and warped combination in my opinion.

[DetectiveKir 6]

Not feeling sorry for killers, doesn't equate to not being able to have emotional ties to your friends who don't go around killing people. That's just an unfair comparison.

 

Conan never seems happy when he hears a murderers story, in fact knowing Conan, he surely regrets that he isn't able to stop every crime from occurring, that leads to these situations. But he doesn't let the limits of detective and the police, to be used as excuses for cold acts of murder.