Mary Discussion Thread

[gg1998 3]

15 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

Honestly Mary's probably just paranoid because someone attempted to give her a strange drug to kill her but turned her into a kid, which makes her question other strange children like Conan. I honestly think Mary's statement is about as profound as: "Gee, Conan now acts a lot older than he appears to be, probably because he is an adult turned into a kid. So, like, don't assume he will be the same as an actual 6-year old and underestimate him, I guess lol."

 

Overall, this is one of Gosho's typical trash clues. Gosho's repeat tactic is making a suspect character seem malicious by having them say something vaguely sinister - in this case the same thing Gin said. Remember when lots of people thought there was a deep meaning to Okiya's creepier lines, but then they mostly all turned out to be complete throwaways that didn't warrant any explanation? I remember. The way you avoid falling for Gosho's trap is remembering that actions are everything, words are worthless. Mary was willing to confirm her presence, abilities, and knowledge to Conan by using the bowtie in front of him and taking out a culprit instead of letting him get away. That's an overall sign of trust, although she may not be willing to fully cooperate and exchange info. (Because when does an Akai ever share info? Younger sis doesn't even know older brother 2 plays shogi. Pretty unhealthy family dynamics there.)

 

<hr>

All these speculations about Wakita being BO or whatever are premature. He has yet to do anything of importance and little that would give clues about his allegiance. It would be nice if everyone patiently waited for his second spotlight case before declaring him Rum's mentor or somesuch. Wakita has a better chance of being Amuro's former boxing instructor for all we know now.

I was thinking about the implications of Mary's caution. Is it probable for Sera to disguise as someone else and then approach Conan for his help during Koji case?

Another point too, I'm also seeing a certain dichotomy in Rumi's behaviour she has great detective skills but won't hide her hatred to a suspicious one eyed person. Her glaring forced Kuroda to say that whether she's ok with the case being investigated by the police or not?

Also Rumi mentioning that she's 10 years older than Kobayshi-sensei is kinda odd, firstly mentioning your age to your students is just plain stupid, secondly how did she know Kobayashi's age ?we also know that that the robbery case happened 10 years ago and Conan met Sera also 10 years ago.

So can Sera be Rumi? What's your thought on this?

[Serinox 127]

43 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Is it probable for Sera to disguise as someone else and then approach Conan for his help during Koji case?

No, since Sera and Mary don't have disguise capabilities as far as we know.

 

43 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Also Rumi mentioning that she's 10 years older than Kobayshi-sensei is kinda odd, firstly mentioning your age to your students is just plain stupid

Is it? Where I come from, using "Hello, my name is X, I am X years old and I'm working as an X" is a common way to introduce yourself to a larger group.

 

44 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

secondly how did she know Kobayashi's age ?

Kobayashi told her? Surely they had a meeting beforehand, preparing the upcoming lessons and doing smalltalk.

 

46 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

So can Sera be Rumi? What's your thought on this?

How do you pretend to be an elementary school teacher all day, six days a week, while you also are attending high school at the same time and have a social life there? Also, would Masumi take the risk to let Ayumi die? Would Masumi just accept the death of Banno's girlfriend, just to test Conan, which she doesn't need to do anymore, since she already knows he is smart? Seems pretty impossible to me.

[gg1998 3]

4 hours ago, Serinox said:

No, since Sera and Mary don't have disguise capabilities as far as we know.

 

Is it? Where I come from, using "Hello, my name is X, I am X years old and I'm working as an X" is a common way to introduce yourself to a larger group.

 

Kobayashi told her? Surely they had a meeting beforehand, preparing the upcoming lessons and doing smalltalk.

 

How do you pretend to be an elementary school teacher all day, six days a week, while you also are attending high school at the same time and have a social life there? Also, would Masumi take the risk to let Ayumi die? Would Masumi just accept the death of Banno's girlfriend, just to test Conan, which she doesn't need to do anymore, since she already knows he is smart? Seems pretty impossible to me.

1. All I'm saying is a possibility.
2. In my native place that sort of introduction is just plain stupid and the whole class would be laughing their asses off, not judging your native place though but that's how it is in my native place. Teachers don't introduce themselves by plainly stating their age. Their age is irrelevant only their names matter.
3. Even if I consider that's normal in Japan still using someone else's age as a benchmark sounds off to me.
4. Maybe she's on a leave. If she knows reverse psychology that's a pretty safe bet to wager with. As for Banno's girlfriend's death we're again assuming something. For us, "Manga readers" the phrase that it's your last meal means that I'll murder you but let's assume in real life you witness a warring couple and one of them says" it's your last dinner" under his/her breath. What would you assume? Possible murder or possible separation?
5. So making Rumi indifferent to a murder would be judging Rumi from a biased perspective. I'm willing to give Rumi the benefit of doubt, because if I were there in her place I would also have ignored it. 

[Serinox 127]

Again, a lot of speculation that's purely based on "It's not impossible." Oh well.

 

38 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

As for Banno's girlfriend's death we're again assuming something. For us, "Manga readers" the phrase that it's your last meal means that I'll murder you but let's assume in real life you witness a warring couple and one of them says" it's your last dinner" under his/her breath. What would you assume? Possible murder or possible separation?

Okay, but we know what Rumi assumed: she assumed he would kill her, since she brought Conan to her apartment for him to figure out the case and even bought extra plates and cups in case his friends would join them. Her actions clearly show that she assumed the murder would take place. Would Masumi in such a situation do what Rumi did or would she somehow try to prevent it?

[gg1998 3]

13 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Again, a lot of speculation that's purely based on "It's not impossible." Oh well.

 

Okay, but we know what Rumi assumed: she assumed he would kill her, since she brought Conan to her apartment for him to figure out the case and even bought extra plates and cups in case his friends would join them. Her actions clearly show that she assumed the murder would take place. Would Masumi in such a situation do what Rumi did or would she somehow try to prevent it?

Again that's a speculation to begin with as you mentioned before. Why it's safe to assume that Conan was invited by Rumi so that he can solve the murder? I think Rumi never anticipated that the murder would happen in the first place that's why she created a scenario to invite Conan so that she can go on with her business. Because Conan will be very much inclined to solve a murder and the police will throng the place so cutting the time for Rumi to act on her original plan, so forcing Conan to solve a murder makes no tangible gains for Rumi's plan. It's(The assertion you made) a classic example of posthoc fallacy(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc), like the Rooster crows that's why the sun rises. 

Even if you argue that Rumi was testing him, I would counter you by highlighting Rumi's introductory case. That was the test and Conan passed it with flying colours. 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

6 hours ago, gg1998 said:

I was thinking about the implications of Mary's caution. Is it probable for Sera to disguise as someone else and then approach Conan for his help during Koji case?

Another point too, I'm also seeing a certain dichotomy in Rumi's behaviour she has great detective skills but won't hide her hatred to a suspicious one eyed person. Her glaring forced Kuroda to say that whether she's ok with the case being investigated by the police or not?

Also Rumi mentioning that she's 10 years older than Kobayshi-sensei is kinda odd, firstly mentioning your age to your students is just plain stupid, secondly how did she know Kobayashi's age ?we also know that that the robbery case happened 10 years ago and Conan met Sera also 10 years ago.

So can Sera be Rumi? What's your thought on this?

@Serinox said what I wanted to say but I want to further emphasize there is a zero percent chance Sera is Rumi. Arc characters are more likely to be new in a new arc than recycled. What I am more weirded out by is why you think this is a viable idea at all. Your argument's premise is two random but true facts about Rumi: Rumi glares at Kuroda, and Rumi says she is 10 years older than Kobayashi, and then somehow these are supposed to provide meaning that Rumi is Sera. It doesn't make any sense at all. It would be like me saying Kaitou Kid wears white and he steals expensive things, so he dressed up as Gin and murdered Akemi.

You have to provide on-topic evidence to make a point.

[Serinox 127]

23 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Even if you argue that Rumi was testing him, I would counter you by highlighting Rumi's introductory case. That was the test and Conan passed it with flying colours. 

Why would that be the last test? You can test a person multiple times. And why do you think that Conan passed the test in her introduction test? She had to give him two hints, maybe she considered that too much and wanted a second test.

 

23 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Why it's safe to assume that Conan was invited by Rumi so that he can solve the murder?

Oh come on, Rumi witnessed the conversation, gave a sinister smile and then had one of her "accidents" again that would conveniently give Conan a reason to visit her apartment. She also hastily bought the cups, plates and food only after she heard the conversation, even coming late to school for that. You want it spelt out directly in her thoughts?

 

I know that you really desperately want to push Post hoc fallacies onto everybody because you were off-mark with your deductions in the Kendo Tournament case, but please stop throwing that around everytime you disagree with something.

 

Quote

All I'm saying is a possibility.

Oh no, no, that's not what you said. You asked: " Is it probable for Sera to disguise as someone else and then approach Conan for his help during Koji case?" - Is it probable? No. Is it impossible? No, but again, that's not what you said.

[gg1998 3]

55 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Why would that be the last test? You can test a person multiple times. And why do you think that Conan passed the test in her introduction test? She had to give him two hints, maybe she considered that too much and wanted a second test.

 

Oh come on, Rumi witnessed the conversation, gave a sinister smile and then had one of her "accidents" again that would conveniently give Conan a reason to visit her apartment. She also hastily bought the cups, plates and food only after she heard the conversation, even coming late to school for that. You want it spelt out directly in her thoughts?

 

I know that you really desperately want to push Post hoc fallacies onto everybody because you were off-mark with your deductions in the Kendo Tournament case, but please stop throwing that around everytime you disagree with something.

 

Oh no, no, that's not what you said. You asked: " Is it probable for Sera to disguise as someone else and then approach Conan for his help during Koji case?" - Is it probable? No. Is it impossible? No, but again, that's not what you said.

1. Because in the last test Conan was able to solve the case with only two hints, something which remained unsolved for ten years. That's something.
2. Oh, come on. Just because Rumi witnessed the conversation and bought cups and plates thereafter doesn't imply that Rumi's action was caused due to the stuff. So can you definitely prove that it's not a post-hoc fallacy but a valid assumption?
3. I'm not desperate to push any theory on Rumi's character. I'm more open to wait for more plot development. But your assertion isn't immune to post-hoc fallacy but rather it's a prey of it. I fell prey to it so did you during the last chapter. So is it a problem for you to make sure that your theory should be immune to post-hoc fallacy?
4. I'll explain why, if your assertion is true then Rumi is a devious and cunning person who can let people get murdered to further her agenda. But the same Rumi gets triggered due to the mention of prosthetic, glares towards a suspicious man only to strengthen his suspicion. Which invalidates your claim, there's complete contradiction inherent in it.
5. But if I say Rumi had an agenda to summon Conan, it was predetermined because Rumi knew on that day they would be doing the painting. When she heard the quarrel she smiled due to the sheer stupidity of the couple and it was a smile of pity.
6. Now the man kills woman and Rumi's perfect plan to get Conan's time got ruined.
7. So you're just believing what you want to believe that Rumi wanted Conan to solve a murder so she let it happen.
8. I believe that she wanted to have a one to one conversation with Conan and the murder ruined it.
9. I noticed a certain level of immaturity in Rumi when she's handling certain issues, which shouldn't be the case if she's as smart as he seems to be. So I find her reaction to Kuroda and prosthetic a bit teenagerish, that's why I thought thet there might be some similarity, nothing else.

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

@Serinox said what I wanted to say but I want to further emphasize there is a zero percent chance Sera is Rumi. Arc characters are more likely to be new in a new arc than recycled. What I am more weirded out by is why you think this is a viable idea at all. Your argument's premise is two random but true facts about Rumi: Rumi glares at Kuroda, and Rumi says she is 10 years older than Kobayashi, and then somehow these are supposed to provide meaning that Rumi is Sera. It doesn't make any sense at all. It would be like me saying Kaitou Kid wears white and he steals expensive things, so he dressed up as Gin and murdered Akemi.

You have to provide on-topic evidence to make a point.

It was just a speculation a better way to frame it would be does Rumi already know about the meeting which happened 10 years ago, sorry for being not direct to you.

BTW the example you gave was bit off, if you had said that Wakita has a bad eye and he has a strong built then he's Rum. It would have been appropriate example to counter my point. Because you see here's no evidence that Wakita isn't Rum though the proposition based on these two points is quite far fetched.

What I should have asked that Rumi seemed to a bit teenagerish immature at times that's why my question was framed.

[Serinox 127]

34 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

I fell prey to it so did you during the last chapter

Uhh, no, I didn't. I made a wrong guess at the culprit.

 

37 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

I'll explain why, if your assertion is true then Rumi is a devious and cunning person who can let people get murdered to further her agenda. But the same Rumi gets triggered due to the mention of prosthetic, glares towards a suspicious man only to strengthen his suspicion. Which invalidates your claim, there's complete contradiction inherent in it.

What logic is that supposed to be? If Rumi were cunning and devious, she would completely act that way 100% of the time? That's what you are arguing here? Rumi was clearly shocked, the mention of the prosthetic eye and seeing Kuroda was clearly quite emotional for her, so she reacted not like her calm self from when she beat up the robbers (for example) initially. So what? That doesn't mean she isn't cunning and devious, it's means she is a human, who reacts differently to different situations. Plus, if that really was an emotional trigger, she has probably experienced something traumatic in relation to prosthetic eyes, so her weird, emotional reaction was most likely not even a reaction she had control over.

 

45 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

But if I say Rumi had an agenda to summon Conan, it was predetermined because Rumi knew on that day they would be doing the painting. When she heard the quarrel she smiled due to the sheer stupidity of the couple and it was a smile of pity.

If that was the plan, why did Rumi only buy cups, plates and food after the conversation, making her come late to school? If she had already decided to bring Conan on the same day, why didn't she buy that stuff the day before in her free time, instead doing on the same day and thus potentially risking her position at school?

 

48 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

I noticed a certain level of immaturity in Rumi when she's handling certain issues, which shouldn't be the case if she's as smart as he seems to be. So I find her reaction to Kuroda and prosthetic a bit teenagerish, that's why I thought thet there might be some similarity, nothing else.

She reacted with shock and she showed her emotions. That's not something specifically teenagerish, that's general human behaviour.

 

49 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

I believe that she wanted to have a one to one conversation with Conan and the murder ruined it.

She could've still gone through with her earlier proposal to drive the DB home and drop them off one by one, leaving Conan for last, thus getting into a one on one conversation with him, even after the murder and even after the incident with the media. But she didn't.

[gg1998 3]

44 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Uhh, no, I didn't. I made a wrong guess at the culprit.

 

What logic is that supposed to be? If Rumi were cunning and devious, she would completely act that way 100% of the time? That's what you are arguing here? Rumi was clearly shocked, the mention of the prosthetic eye and seeing Kuroda was clearly quite emotional for her, so she reacted not like her calm self from when she beat up the robbers (for example) initially. So what? That doesn't mean she isn't cunning and devious, it's means she is a human, who reacts differently to different situations. Plus, if that really was an emotional trigger, she has probably experienced something traumatic in relation to prosthetic eyes, so her weird, emotional reaction was most likely not even a reaction she had control over.

 

If that was the plan, why did Rumi only buy cups, plates and food after the conversation, making her come late to school? If she had already decided to bring Conan on the same day, why didn't she buy that stuff the day before in her free time, instead doing on the same day and thus potentially risking her position at school?

 

She reacted with shock and she showed her emotions. That's not something specifically teenagerish, that's general human behaviour.

 

She could've still gone through with her earlier proposal to drive the DB home and drop them off one by one, leaving Conan for last, thus getting into a one on one conversation with him, even after the murder and even after the incident with the media. But she didn't.

1. You did commit it, else would have guessed the culprit correctly.
2. The logic is such a cold blooded person who wants to involve kids(DB minus Conan) into such a gruesome phenomenon can't be this much emotionally unstable, if that's the case she is a psychologically unstable.
3. Here you're assuming two things, firstly Rumi predicted the murder correctly, that's quite debatable, even if she guessed it it didn't have 100% certainty. Secondly, you're assuming that Rumi had a plenty of free time on her hand, but it was she who drew the tiger. It's tiring project because she did it single-handedly so the free-time theory of yours is not applicable, here. But something you overlooked, the play was scheduled to be held on the next day, so ruining it on the previous day gave her the perfect opportunity and she's already a hero in the school after the first case, delay on a single day won't be a big deal for her. If she was such a calculating person why the receipt was still lying on the floor? Why didn't she just throw it away?
4. How could she? Conan already figured out her plan, so that's why he asked the question about her delay. No point for Rumi to push through her plan when she's already a bit exposed.
5. Wearing your heart on your sleeve is quite teenagerish, especially for a grown up woman.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

3 hours ago, Serinox said:

Oh come on, Rumi witnessed the conversation, gave a sinister smile and then had one of her "accidents" again that would conveniently give Conan a reason to visit her apartment. She also hastily bought the cups, plates and food only after she heard the conversation, even coming late to school for that. You want it spelt out directly in her thoughts?

Completely this. Rumi knew trouble was brewing with her neighbors. Banno Teigo had the conversation with Iiyama Kurumi in the hallway with the door open. Rumi could hear all of it. Kurumi openly demanded 100 million yen for as compensation for emotional harm because he was breaking up with her, and she threatened to sue him into oblivion. (That lawsuit would be totally laughed out of court btw.) Then Banno said "This meal will be your last" with a face full of malicious intent. By Detective Conan standards, he might has well been licking a bloody knife yandere style, that's how much "killing intent" there was going on.

 

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

1.  
2.  So can you definitely prove that it's not a post-hoc fallacy but a valid assumption?
3.  But your assertion isn't immune to post-hoc fallacy but rather it's a prey of it. I fell prey to it so did you during the last chapter. So is it a problem for you to make sure that your theory should be immune to post-hoc fallacy?

Veteran of internet arguments here. For fallacies to have weight, you need to be using them correctly. You aren't. Second, people who bring up named fallacies are almost always amateurs who are hiding the weakness of their arguments behind formal names. Seriously, in all the time I have been on DC forums, I think I have seen fallacies used correctly about twice. I'm pretty sure there is a fallacy for this, or at least a meme or two. If there is a problem with someone's argument, just spell it out instead of trying to dress it up with gratuitous latin.

 

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

But if I say Rumi had an agenda to summon Conan, it was predetermined because Rumi knew on that day they would be doing the painting. When she heard the quarrel she smiled due to the sheer stupidity of the couple and it was a smile of pity.

This is why you need to check the manga before you post. The timeline is like this - Rumi hears the conversation. It's very early which Kurumi mentions (979p3). Rumi realizes the killing intent, so then runs to the store and buys extra stuff because she knows she wants the kids to come over to witness the murder plot. (979p13) That makes her late to school which Conan notices. That day they are practicing for the play, which was decided in advance. However the props seem to have been built in class that day, including the tiger painting Rumi made. That explains the bucket of black (paint waste) water. Rumi painted her tiger with intent to wreck it later so she could have the kids over. So it's true the play prep was something determined to happen in advance. But the accident wasn't. That was something Rumi came up with after hearing the hallway fight. She even knew when the murder plan would take place because Kurumi and Banno talked about when they would meet for dinner. 

 

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

I'll explain why, if your assertion is true then Rumi is a devious and cunning person who can let people get murdered to further her agenda. But the same Rumi gets triggered due to the mention of prosthetic, glares towards a suspicious man only to strengthen his suspicion. Which invalidates your claim, there's complete contradiction inherent in it.

What claim is being invalidated here? What argument do you think Serinox is making? Because the last thing I saw Serinox saying was 1) that Rumi probably isn't Sera because that is a weird as heck idea that goes against their skills and personalities we have seen so far 2) Rumi was testing Conan at some point with the murder case.

You seem to be arguing that Rumi is cunning and devious, but clearly is triggered by people with one eye/fake eyes/whatever to the point where she loses her composure. Okay? That sounds like a totally reasonable personality to me that's done often in DC. Conan keeps his cool normally but loses it with Ran. Ai keeps her cool but loses it with the BO. Megure keeps his cool but loses it when policewomen act as bait to lure in criminals. Maybe Rumi keeps her cool, but because of a traumatic experience in the past (Kohji case is obvious choice here) she loses her cool regarding eye problems.

[gg1998 3]

24 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Completely this. Rumi knew trouble was brewing with her neighbors. Banno Teigo had the conversation with Iiyama Kurumi in the hallway with the door open. Rumi could hear all of it. Kurumi openly demanded 100 million yen for as compensation for emotional harm because he was breaking up with her, and she threatened to sue him into oblivion. (That lawsuit would be totally laughed out of court btw.) Then Banno said "This meal will be your last" with a face full of malicious intent. By Detective Conan standards, he might has well been licking a bloody knife yandere style, that's how much "killing intent" there was going on.

 

Veteran of internet arguments here. For fallacies to have weight, you need to be using them correctly. You aren't. Second, people who bring up named fallacies are almost always amateurs who are hiding the weakness of their arguments behind formal names. Seriously, in all the time I have been on DC forums, I think I have seen fallacies used correctly about twice. I'm pretty sure there is a fallacy for this, or at least a meme or two. If there is a problem with someone's argument, just spell it out instead of trying to dress it up with gratuitous latin.

 

This is why you need to check the manga before you post. The timeline is like this - Rumi hears the conversation. It's very early which Kurumi mentions (979p3). Rumi realizes the killing intent, so then runs to the store and buys extra stuff because she knows she wants the kids to come over to witness the murder plot. (979p13) That makes her late to school which Conan notices. That day they are practicing for the play, which was decided in advance. However the props seem to have been built in class that day, including the tiger painting Rumi made. That explains the bucket of black (paint waste) water. Rumi painted her tiger with intent to wreck it later so she could have the kids over. So it's true the play prep was something determined to happen in advance. But the accident wasn't. That was something Rumi came up with after hearing the hallway fight. She even knew when the murder plan would take place because Kurumi and Banno talked about when they would meet for dinner. 

 

What claim is being invalidated here? What argument do you think Serinox is making? Because the last thing I saw Serinox saying was 1) that Rumi probably isn't Sera because that is a weird as heck idea that goes against their skills and personalities we have seen so far 2) Rumi was testing Conan at some point with the murder case.

You seem to be arguing that Rumi is cunning and devious, but clearly is triggered by people with one eye/fake eyes/whatever to the point where she loses her composure. Okay? That sounds like a totally reasonable personality to me that's done often in DC. Conan keeps his cool normally but loses it with Ran. Ai keeps her cool but loses it with the BO. Megure keeps his cool but looses it when policewomen act as bait to lure in criminals. Maybe Rumi keeps her cool, but because of a traumatic experience in the past (Kohji case is obvious choice here) she loses her cool regarding eye problems.

1. I'm saying that just because Rumi bought cups and plates after hearing about the brewing trouble, doesn't imply that cups and plates were bought because Rumi heard about the trouble. It can all be a coincidence. That's why I'll only believe it if I get more evidence for it. So making cause and effect assumptions based on timeline is post hoc fallacy. I'm not invalidating this argument, I'm searching for something which leaves no space for doubt.
2. My argument is that Rumi shot a death glare to Kuroda even before he opened his mouth. Glaring at suspicious strangers isn't a sign of maturity. Shinichi and Haibara are both teenagers and Megure is an average policeman, none of them are cold blooded calculative minds. Let's assume can we imagine Gin doing the same thing? We can only compare oranges with Oranges, not with round stones.
3. I'm not making a claim that Rumi is Sera, I'm just playing around with the idea that there's a cunning Rumi an immature Rumi living in the same body. So I'm trying to get people who fits that profile, Sera seems to be one.

[Serinox 127]

27 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

You did commit it, else would have guessed the culprit correctly.

A wrong guess is not a post hoc fallacy.

 

7 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

My argument is that Rumi shot a death glare to Kuroda even before he opened his mouth

She didn't, look at 987 again.

 

32 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Wearing your heart on your sleeve is quite teenagerish, especially for a grown up woman.

That's a fair share or generalization here and not even quite true. Wearing your on your sleeve is more what elementary schoolers do, but not teenagers in general, who tend to hide their true feelings and emotions more because of puberty and the insecurities resulting from it.

 

15 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Glaring at suspicious strangers isn't a sign of maturity

It's not a sign for immaturity either.

 

15 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Shinichi and Haibara are both teenagers and Megure is an average policeman, none of them are cold blooded calculative minds. Let's assume can we imagine Gin doing the same thing? We can only compare oranges with Oranges, not with round stones.

Okay, how about Vermouth messing up in the Rokumichi Hado case, getting overwhelmed by her protectiveness of Ran and compromising her cover by blurting out "Angel"? Vermouth is certainly a cunning, cold-blooded woman and she made a mistake. Turns that humans are not one-dimensional beings.

 

41 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

If she was such a calculating person why the receipt was still lying on the floor? Why didn't she just throw it away?

Maybe she forgot, maybe it fell out of her pocket and she didn't notice. Being a calculating person doesn't mean you never make mistakes. Nobody's perfect and all that.

 

44 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Secondly, you're assuming that Rumi had a plenty of free time on her hand, but it was she who drew the tiger. It's tiring project because she did it single-handedly so the free-time theory of yours is not applicable, here.

As Chek mentioned, it is likely that Rumi only painted the tiger on the same day as ruining it, after buying the plates, cups and the food. But even if she did it beforehand, that's not a reason to not buy the cups, plates and food beforehand. There are masses of 24hr convenience stores in Japan and especially in a metropolis like Tokyo, so there was no problem to get all that stuff beforehand, at any time of the day.

 

49 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

The logic is such a cold blooded person who wants to involve kids(DB minus Conan) into such a gruesome phenomenon can't be this much emotionally unstable, if that's the case she is a psychologically unstable.

 

43 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

You seem to be arguing that Rumi is cunning and devious, but clearly is triggered by people with one eye/fake eyes/whatever to the point where she loses her composure. Okay? That sounds like a totally reasonable personality to me that's done often in DC. Conan keeps his cool normally but loses it with Ran. Ai keeps her cool but loses it with the BO. Megure keeps his cool but loses it when policewomen act as bait to lure in criminals. Maybe Rumi keeps her cool, but because of a traumatic experience in the past (Kohji case is obvious choice here) she loses her cool regarding eye problems.

What Chek said +1.

[gg1998 3]

1. I'm only saying that Rumi buying plates and cups after hearing about the trouble doesn't imply causation, we need more evidence to substantiate that Rumi bought plates only because she heard about this stuff. Causation based on order of events can constitute post hoc fallacy.
2. Rumi mentioned that the tiger which she she used as a reference was in her home. So she couldn't have done it on that day. The excuse which Rumi gave was true. Because she could have given the excuse that her relatives/friends were visiting on the next day so she bought it. Conan has the receipt and he can easily verify whether her claims hold good or not, but if the excuse was he later one then Conan would have had nothing to be suspicious of. A calculating mind would have done that.
3.  If you check file 988, Kuroda mentions that Rumi glared at him so he thought that she might not be okay with calling the cops.
4. Do mature people glare at suspicious strangers? Instead they become watchful.
5. I'm saying losing your cool is not equal to behaving in a stand outish manner. If Megure was in an undercover agent with a very cunning mind he wouldn't be doing it, though it won't mean that he was an unfeeling person.
6. The vermouth example doesn't equate with this, Bourbon already knows about her love for Ran and Conan. Conan generally doesn't treat her a downright enemy and Ran is just too simple to comprehend stuff like this, Vermouth's show of affection is a lot safer than Rumi's reactions. I think if Rumi is a person who lets a murder happen because she wants to test a detective's potential is a far dangerous person than Gin, Vermouth and Rum combined, such a dangerous person can't show her triggers that easily. It's not like I'm saying she is stone cold but she has the potential to act with better judgement.

[Serinox 127]

15 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

 If you check file 988, Kuroda mentions that Rumi glared at him so he thought that she might not be okay with calling the cops.

Kuroda was talking before that as well though and we can't actually tell when she started to stare at him like that, which means that we were technically both wrong.

18 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Ran is just too simple to comprehend stuff like this

And yet she did comprehend it during the case.

19 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

I think if Rumi is a person who lets a murder happen because she wants to test a detective's potential is a far dangerous person than Gin, Vermouth and Rum combined

What?! Hahaha, Gin is willing to blow up an entire train and an entire train station just to kill one person among them (and that's not even the first time he intends to blow up an entire train), Gin directly murders persons in cold blood (Pisco, Akemi), Gin orders the death of Kogoro and Conan on the mere chance that Kogoro might be related to Sherry, Vermouth killed Jodie's parents in cold blood and burned down their house, intending to burn the 8 year old Jodie as well and more, and now Rumi is supposed to be the more dangerous person than these two alone combined, because she passively allows murder to occur and risks the life of one hostage? Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

 

On the rest: I disagree and I continue to find your logic baffling and unreasonable by quite a wide margin, but it's clear that this is going nowhere. I made my points and I stand by them and so do you, and that's fine.

[gg1998 3]

6 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Kuroda was talking before that as well though and we can't actually tell when she started to stare at him like that, which means that we were technically both wrong.

And yet she did comprehend it during the case.

What?! Hahaha, Gin is willing to blow up an entire train and an entire train station just to kill one person among them (and that's not even the first time he intends to blow up an entire train), Gin directly murders persons in cold blood (Pisco, Akemi), Gin orders the death of Kogoro and Conan on the mere chance that Kogoro might be related to Sherry, Vermouth killed Jodie's parents in cold blood and burned down their house, intending to burn the 8 year old Jodie as well and more, and now Rumi is supposed to be the more dangerous person than these two alone combined, because she passively allows murder to occur and risks the life of one hostage? Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

 

On the rest: I disagree and I continue to find your logic baffling and unreasonable by quite a wide margin, but it's clear that this is going nowhere. I made my points and I stand by them and so do you, and that's fine.

If you read clearly then in 987 you can see Kuroda is talking while Rumi is glaring. Now if Rumi glared before Kuroda started talking only then the scenario appears. Not the other way around, 988 proves my point.

Good that you found out that the last point is for lolzs.

But let me tell you, I find you jumping to conclusions and being unreasonable by a pretty wider margin. You tend to associate causality on order alone, I disagree with that, I need more proof/material to work with. Most of your conclusions are premature, but let's agree to disagree.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

I'm only saying that Rumi buying plates and cups after hearing about the trouble doesn't imply causation, we need more evidence to substantiate that Rumi bought plates only because she heard about this stuff. Causation based on order of events can constitute post hoc fallacy.

Conan straight-up thinks Rumi called him over to encounter the murder mystery and he saw less of the situation than we, the readers did via 3rd-person omniscience. Rumi was all dressed and ready to go out and had no reason to be late to school, heard the convo between the soon-to-be killer and vic, then suddenly changed plans, went to a store to buy extra things in prep for the kids to come over, and was late to school. After the tiger shenanigans, she very, very conveniently invited the kids over at the time the murder plot was going to take place, which she overheard during the convo (e.g. paella dinner time). You can complain about figurative post hoc smoke not technically being correlated to fire all you want, but I'm just going keep pointing at the metaphorical firetrucks parked out front of this situation. Let me reiterate, Conan thinks Rumi prepared a setup so they would encounter the murder case. (File 987 pgs 5-6) Do you need Rumi to literally monologue her plans before you believe that she took advantage of an incoming murder situation to get close to Conan/see Conan in action?

 

Quote

Rumi mentioned that the tiger which she she used as a reference was in her home.

So this is definitely truth and there isn't the slightest possibility that this is a convenient lie for her plan?

 

Quote

My argument is that Rumi shot a death glare to Kuroda even before he opened his mouth. Glaring at suspicious strangers isn't a sign of maturity. Shinichi and Haibara are both teenagers and Megure is an average policeman, none of them are cold blooded calculative minds. Let's assume can we imagine Gin doing the same thing? We can only compare oranges with Oranges, not with round stones.

Your argument is essentially Rumi did one thing I thought was immature, so she might be a teenager in disguise.

 

I can't take this seriously because it's ridiculous and shallow. I'm getting flashbacks to when someone seriously argued with me that Okiya can't be Akai because Okiya smiles too much.

 

Quote

I'm not making a claim that Rumi is Sera, I'm just playing around with the idea that there's a cunning Rumi an immature Rumi living in the same body. So I'm trying to get people who fits that profile, Sera seems to be one.

Well, I'm going to be blunt. Rumi being Sera is a pretty bizarre and unlikely theory. I don't know why you'd invest so much energy in it. I think it's more likely that Wakita taught Amuro how to make ham sandwiches, but I'm not having a 10+ comment reply chain to chase that one.

[gg1998 3]

7 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Conan straight-up thinks Rumi called him over to encounter the murder mystery and he saw less of the situation than we, the readers did via 3rd-person omniscience. Rumi was all dressed and ready to go out and had no reason to be late to school, heard the convo between the soon-to-be killer and vic, then suddenly changed plans, went to a store to buy extra things in prep for the kids to come over, and was late to school. After the tiger shenanigans, she very, very conveniently invited the kids over at the time the murder plot was going to take place, which she overheard during the convo (e.g. paella dinner time). You can complain about figurative post hoc smoke not technically being correlated to fire all you want, but I'm just going keep pointing at the metaphorical firetrucks parked out front of this situation. Let me reiterate, Conan thinks Rumi prepared a setup so they would encounter the murder case. (File 987 pgs 5-6) Do you need Rumi to literally monologue her plans before you believe that she took advantage of an incoming murder situation to get close to Conan/see Conan in action?

 

So this is definitely truth and there isn't the slightest possibility that this is a convenient lie for her plan?

 

Your argument is essentially Rumi did one thing I thought was immature, so she might be a teenager in disguise.

 

I can't take this seriously because it's ridiculous and shallow. I'm getting flashbacks to when someone seriously argued with me that Okiya can't be Akai because Okiya smiles too much.

 

Well, I'm going to be blunt. Rumi being Sera is a pretty bizarre and unlikely theory. I don't know why you'd invest so much energy in it. I think it's more likely that Wakita taught Amuro how to make ham sandwiches, but I'm not having a 10+ comment reply chain to chase that one.

1.  All I'm saying that Rumi has already seen Conan in action so why does she need a second test to give to Conan? I'm more inclined to think she wanted to have a convo with Conan not wanting him to solve a murder. The betting on one of the possible outcome is gambling, why would Rumi want to gamble on something? We also have no proof to discard that buying plates for the DB was a premeditated thought of Rumi.
2. That possibly is the truth, because the Tiger painting was done at least one day before the incident took place. Rumi had no reason to carry it around because the deal was already done and she would need a scenario to appear as a truthful person when she invites the DB over.
3. Immaturity is unheard of from such a calculating mind, why suddenly the presence of Kuroda threw her off the loop? I never implied that's my reason to believe Rumi is Sera, I'm just checking out potential Rumi cosplayers.
4. I'm trying to map the personality of Rumi, that's why I need to invest in oddities of her behaviour, it has nothing to do with Rumi being X or Y.
5. BTW I did some dimension analysis on Rumi's pocket item would you like to see it?

[Aries Bless 18]

If Elena and Mary were sisters, then maybe the 'sister from outside the domain' was a reference to it. If Mary wasn't aware of Elena's death, but knew of her project, she might have thought that Conan/Shinichi knew Elena. So 'the younger sister from outside the domain' might mean 'Elena's sister, who is not involved in her circle,' or 'Elena's sister from outside Japan', or 'Elena's sister, who hasn't been in her life for years.'

Perhaps Mary, like Elena, met her husband in Japan while studying.

[Tantei95 0]

Three years since last post so.. well, now we know that Mary is Elena's sister.  (Thus Akai and Haibara/Akemi are cousin?)