Boss of The Black Organization?

[Akazora 293]

  On 5/10/2011 at 6:00 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

That's a dicey idea. Conan almost didn't make it. Akai was the one who bailed Conan and Kogoro out. Why couldn't the boss just not give assassination approval and ask for spies to verify Kogoro's involvement instead? Also what if Ran was home at the time? Gin would have ordered her killed as well. Eri didn't know where Ran was and Eri doesn't seem anywhere close to the type to order Kogoro and Ran killed anyway.

I wonder if I should go through every person in the series commonly claimed to be the boss and give reasons why that person couldn't be the boss. It would give me something new to do as I have already beat the Akai/Bourbon/Subaru/Scar Akai issue to death.

That would be a good idea.

It'll also pinpoint certain people who could actually be the Boss, that is, if the Boss is one of the characters already introduced.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Boss likelihood list Part 1: Info about the Boss

This post only superseded by the DCTP version here: http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3518#p117007

General info about the boss and speculations

Boss’s Personality/Background

1) The syndicate leader uses the song “Seven children/ Seven year old child” to encode his/her email. It is likely the Boss is probably Japanese, grew up in Japan, or had Japanese parents, relatives, or spouse as this children’s song is not well known elsewhere.

2) The operatives dress in black, which Akemi says is supposed to resemble crows. This is probably an expression of the boss’s dress code preferences. The choice to use Nanatsu no Ko as a phone number is probably also a reference to crows as well.

3) Uses alcoholic codenames.

4) The organization uses clever codenames, passwords, etc. based on mysteries and history. If the boss is behind the naming scheme then perhaps the boss has an interest in detectives and mysteries.

5) The org has ties to America although the only overseas components occur before the current storyline. The involvement of the American intelligence agencies is testament to this. Perhaps the boss has spent some time in America as well, although that’s not a requisite.

6) The boss is very careful. In file 704 Vermouth says, “The boss is always careful to the extreme. He’s the type to ruin the plan by overthinking it.” (Endless Youth scan.)

Boss’s opinions/relations

1) Vermouth is the boss’s favorite so he/she allows her some independence and overlooks some of her potentially dangerous behavior. It’s confusing why Vermouth is the boss’s favorite when she is the type to actively engage in behavior which is encouraging the syndicate’s downfall - like protecting Conan and allowing Ai to escape. (The boss doesn't know the specifics of course) I have a hard time believing the boss could not see that it is within Vermouth's personality to harbor sympathies or engage in behavior which is counterproductive to the org. Obviously, Vermouth has some characteristic that makes up for her actions. (The failure to age possibility?) At the same time the leader can also command the absolute respect of a wildcard like Gin who vocally despises traitors. Why would Gin follow a person who tolerates rogue agents like Vermouth? All of this makes me wonder what exactly makes Gin so loyal. Whatever the reason, the boss clearly knows people well enough to balance these contradictory personalities and their agendas successfully.

2) The Boss thought Akai Shuuichi could become the org’s silver bullet. (434) In that regard he/she's more like Vermouth than Gin who doesn't believe a single person who can take the syndicate down in one shot exists.

Boss’s Location

The infamous Nanatsu no ko number might have a Tottori area code; however, the number, including the area code, was altered to prevent prank calls. In the star case in 45-9, Haibara reacts to the word Kurayoshi – a city in Tottori province. (466)

Boss’s Age

The organization, or at least the main biochemistry project, has been around for over 50 years. (file 189, but see the ep 130/131 for a better translation) If the boss has been the same for those fifty years, assuming the boss started the organization at around 20, that would put him/her at 70+ years of age.

As a bottom end estimate, Haibara grew up within the organization and she hasn't mentioned there being a changeover in bosses. (Not that she mentions much of anything regarding the org…) Assuming she remembers things from when she was 6 or 7, that would put the boss at around 30 years at a minimum; however, due to aging wonkiness, the boss may not appear to be as old as he/she is. The grammatical ambiguity of “Nanatsu no ko” allows “child of seven” to be a valid meaning, which would be suitable for a boss stuck in the body of a child due to some aging problem like Vermouth’s.

========================================

Extra Detective Conan book info

Aoyama gave an interview where he discussed the boss. Original source found!

http://anokata.xxxxxxxx.jp/anokata.html

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/forum/topic/523-boss-of-the-black-organization/page__view__findpost__p__67934

http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=463#p6015

1 Aoyama had already put the name of the boss somewhere on the manga in some form or another. The time frame of the initial interview places this as before before File 551. Note osho is specific about the name, not the actual character.

2) Aoyama suggested that the true name of the syndicate, which has also never been revealed, is tied to the identity of its leader. If the Black Organization's real name were revealed, everyone would know who its leader is. This seems like a pretty big hint. I strongly doubt Gosho would do something as direct as naming the organization after the boss's last name. Given the organization’s use of classic literature, especially of the mystery genre, and allegory, the organization’s true name is probably a clever reference or a play on words. Haibara likely knows it because when discussing the Organization with Shinichi, she sometimes says, "the people you call the men in black". (One example occurs when she pretends to shoot Conan in desperate revival. Use the anime translation.)

3)This part was not in the original interview. Aoyama also said that Ai would be really shocked if she discovered who the boss is. “It’s someone that Haibara would never have expected.” Ai is very paranoid and untrusting, so the condition that the identity of the boss would really shock Ai helps narrow down the cases. There are several possibilities.

1) She trusts this person dearly. There’s a pretty limited number of people that fit this criteria and most of them seem to be dead or are protagonists and therefore very unlikely to be the boss.

2) The person wouldn’t fit Ai’s expectations

2.1) The person seems "useless" or of unsuitable personality to actually think of them as being a mastermind behind a large organization. Ai would have had to meet this person personally so that she could gauge their personality and subsequently write them off as unlikely to be anyone of consequence. This person would almost certainly not trigger Ai’s “black org sense.”

2.2) The boss’s front job or status is unexpected like a policeman or a school teacher rather than a scientist, company boss, or political figure. It would have to be an unusually benign front to really shock Ai. This person would probably not trigger Ai’s “black org sense” either.

2.3) The boss is relative of someone close to Ai. This is the “evil relative theory”; one of the protagonist’s relatives is the boss or has a direct connection to the boss. The unlikelihood that the honestly good protagonist has some sort of connection to the head of the evil syndicate makes it shocking. The boss could also literally be Ai’s blood-relative, but considering her family’s underworld connections, I’m not sure that Ai is naïve enough to assume that one of her relatives couldn’t be the boss.

2.4) The person's age is unexpected. Given the aging wonkiness that has gone on there is a possibility that the boss could even be a “child” somehow mucked up by drugs or whatnot which would explain why the boss only uses email to avoid allowing people to hear his/her youthful voice and avoids letting people meet him/her although this behavior can simply be explained as generic cautiousness. In this case, Shiho wouldn’t need to have met the boss before to be surprised.

3) She thinks this person is dead. Her parents would be an example of this, although that means they ordered the death of both of their daughters. Shiho’s mom especially seems unlikely to do so based on the tapes.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Not the Boss list Part 2: Reasons why specific characters may not be the boss
People Gosho has said are not the the boss in interviews: Agasa, Kudo Yuusaku, Conan, Ran, Vermouth, Shiratori, Fusae Kinoshita Campbell, James Black, Sonoko, Ayumi, Genta, Mitsuhiko, Samizu Kichiemon, Gin, Kuroba Toichi
Eri is "not involved with the BO"

This list details evidence and logic about why certain characters would not be the boss of the Black Organization (ano kata) along with the summaries about how good that evidence is.

Strong (Very exculpatory) <---> Weak (not very exculpatory)

Generally, the boss should not be anyone who has had more than passing contact with Haibara. The boss would recognize her and take action to silence her and those around her because, according to Haibara, the Organization's priorities are to keep secret first then do research. (Manga Volume 18, File 9, pg 7: "The girl made of lies" - "If I reported your condition to the Organization, it's very likely you would have been terminated before I could do something useful.")
Pisco, Vermouth, and Akai all identified Haibara as Shiho very quickly. The boss should be able to do so as well if he is familiar with her appearance.

James Black - Word of Gosho says NO, formerly Strong - Alibi, failure to act on critical intelligence, contradictory behavior
(Jodie Starling's arguments are close to identical)

  Reveal hidden contents

James Black has a pretty solid alibi. Near the end of FBI vs. the Organization (503 page 15), Gin stated he "just got the boss's approval" to change targets to Mouri Kogoro. At the time Gin's permission was received, James Black was driving a car with Conan and Jodie in it and thus would not be able to manipulate a cellphone while driving without Conan and Jodie noticing.
It is possible to break the alibi by assuming Gin was lying about the contact, but it would be require Gin to lie to his comrades about contacting the boss when there is no particular reason for him to. Gin has enough authority to order action on his own, grounds to do it because he had evidence to act on, and Chianti and Korn would have helped Gin anyway even if Vermouth protested, so there would be no need to lie if he knew the boss was unreachable. Lying about approval could backfire pretty badly if one of the other members brought it up in texts to the boss later; the boss might think Gin was breaking the chain of command by falsely using his name.

James Black hasn't used any of the FBI info to the Org's benefit. Despite knowing extremely incriminating information about Haibara, Conan, Kir, and possibly Vermouth, they are not dead as would be expected if the boss was trying to protect the Organization.

James knows Haibara is the person called Sherry. (See Volume 42 File 11 discussing the witness protection offer the FBI made Haibara) No one in the Org besides Vermouth has shown any signs of knowing where Sherry is, so basically if James is the boss, he hasn't told anyone even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her. Why would the boss order his subordinates to hunt down Shiho, but not make any effort to help them, or even work against them by aiding the FBI and offering her witness protection? It doesn't make sense.

James also knows about Conan and his effective interference with the Org's plans, but again, there has been no action on James' part. Conan was able to get the best of Vermouth with the FBI's help. He is a dangerous threat. In her intro chapters, Haibara told Conan that she thought the Org would kill him before she had the chance to study him; basically the Org's first priority is to stay secret and then get on with research. Also the boss was stated to be very cautious by Vermouth. Why is the boss risking so much by allowing Conan to run about freely and muck with Org plans?

Also James knows Kir is a CIA spy. Why keep her around? Why can't the BO set a trap for her and kill her while she contacts the CIA, or pretend they caught her calling the CIA? Or knowing she was a CIA spy, couldn't he guess the plan that allowed Kir and Akai to fake Akai's death? (He knows how Camel escaped or could ask him later, and I presume Gin and Vodka have the video) Basically, James would know about the same amount of info as the readers. He should be able to figure it out if he is smart.

If James was the boss, he would know that Vermouth made a move on Sherry, and that Vermouth not only failed to capture/kill her, she also lied about what she was doing and left a "witness" to her plans (Araide) alive. Vermouth made a very big slip-up here. Even if she is his favorite, why should he tolerate destructive-to-the-Organization behavior?

Agasa Hiroshi - Word of Gosho says NO, formerly Medium Strong - Failure to act on critical intelligence, contradictory behavior, endangers self.

  Reveal hidden contents

Gosho said in an interview Jan 3, 2013 that you can find in the interviews thread on this forum that Agasa is not the boss.

Agasa hasn't used any of the damaging information he knows about to the Organization's benefit. If he was the boss, he is behaving contrary to the orders he is issuing his subordinates. Also, he has aided the FBI and Conan in working against the Black Organization and in acquiring information about the Black Organization.

Agasa is keeping Conan's secret, although it has been stated by Haibara that if Conan was discovered, the Black Organization would kill him. Agasa has also made Conan several gadgets which have been used to damage the Organization. He has also helped Conan meet various Black Organization related people (Professor Hirota, the architect Dejima).

Agasa took in and has sheltered Sherry. If Agasa is the boss, he hasn't told anyone about Sherry's location and is instead protecting her even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her and kill her. It doesn't make sense and is counterproductive to give subordinates an order and then work against them.

Vermouth, the BO agent who most likely knows the boss's identity, tried to find a way to separate Haibara from Conan and Agasa. Agasa, if he was the boss, had multiple opportunities to make sure Conan was away and hand Haibara off to Vermouth. He did not do this, nor did he tell Vermouth to back off. Also, he overheard the conversation where Vermouth promised not to go after Sherry anymore, and thus she has traitorous intentions. Vermouth hasn't been killed.

Agasa aided Conan in several endeavors to thwart the Black Organization or collect information about them. These include breaking into Gin's car, passing information to Conan used to identify Pisco, informing Conan that Shiho was being shot on the roof of the Haido City Hotel, helping Conan collect Itakura's disc, aiding Conan in ruining Vermouth's plan, eavesdropping on Vermouth and collecting the number of the Black Organization's boss, and helping Jodie and Conan thwart the DJ assassination. He knows about the tracker that was planted on Kir's shoe and that Conan was the one who planted it, yet the boss gave permission for Kogoro to be killed.

Agasa has wound up in many situations where random criminals have beaten/knocked him unconscious and even threatened to kill him. The most important so far is on the Bell Tree Express where Gin had filled the platform with C4 to blow up the entire train. Gin would have had to request the C4 and get approval for the plan, so the boss should be aware of the danger in riding the Bell Tree Express. Agasa has shown no ability to defend himself nor has called for the aids of subordinates despite being in serious danger. He also shown no special deductive ability.

Gin - Word of Gosho says NO, formerly Medium - Contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

Gin did not know about Bourbon's plan to disguise as Akai. Vermouth said she had the boss's permission for the plan because he was very cautious.

If Gin was the boss, why would he put up with agents running around keeping secrets as much as they do? We know that Gin hates it. Can't he request more discipline for all of his agents like Anokata did for Vermouth? If Gin was the boss, why would he even let someone like Bourbon codename if he doesn't like him?

The FBI were hoping to capture Gin who would lead them to the boss. This means Akai and the other FBI think there is someone over Gin at least. (599.09)

If Gin was the boss, it is required that he is pretending to be his own agent. He has engaged in many rather open missions where he has been attacked. This is risky behavior then, contradicting what Vermouth said about the boss being very cautious.

If the boss's favorite is Vermouth, it doesn't mesh with Gin's behavior. Gin mentioned not liking her for keeping secrets, threatened her with a gun, didn't care she was aboard a train heading for destruction, and tried to drive an icepick through her head (for fun?). Two people can be physically involved without liking the other, but Vermouth is the boss's favorite. If was all about the sex, why would Sherry not be the boss's favorite, considering that it has been suggested they were involved?

Elena Miyano - Medium Weak - Backstory would exclude if true, contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

Elena Miyano is apparently dead, which should rule her out as the boss. In case she is not dead, her personality does not seem suitable for the Black Organization's boss. Elena seemed like a nice person based on the tapes she left for Shiho and her Org codename; "Angel who fell into hell" (Haibara's japanese translation/explanation of "Hell Angel"). Also if she was the boss, it meant she conspired to kill her daughter Miyano Akemi, and then later Miyano Shiho.

Miyano Atsushi - Weak - Backstory would exclude if true, contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

Miyano Atsushi is apparently dead, which should rule him out as the boss. In case he is not dead, while we don't know much about his personality, he cared enough about Miyano Akemi to bring her with him and Elena to visit an old friend. Also, Elena seems to have a nice personality (explained above) so, could the cold and ruthless boss form a stable relationship with someone like her? Also, if Atsushi was the boss, it meant he conspired to kill his daughter Miyano Akemi, and then later Miyano Shiho.

When he was over at Souhei Dejima's, he was being watched by people from the Black Organization. (V41-10 pg 12) Atsushi kept looking outside suggesting he was uncomfortable with being observed and the Miyano parents were not highly ranked enough to move about trusted and unwatched. If they were guards, Atsushi would only look once to see if they were there and wouldn't call so much attention to them that the people he was visiting noticed.

Kisaki Eri - Medium Strong - Gosho interview saying not involved with the BO, Contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

If Eri Kisaki was the boss, she ordered her own husband, whom she has loving feelings for, to be killed. Additionally because she was not present when issuing the command, she would not know if Ran was at the Detective agency and thus in the line of fire. This is completely unlike Eri Kisaki's personality.
 
Q 39: I always thought that Eri had something to do with the Black Organisation. What do you think? A: Nooo, I don't think so.

Mouri Kogoro - Medium Strong - Failure to act on critical intelligence, contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

It would be very hard to manage the Organization under Conan's nose when sharing a living space.

The boss wouldn't give Gin orders for his own assassination, which is what occurred in FBI vs. the Black Org.

Kudo Yuusaku - Word of Gosho says NO, formerly Medium Strong - Failure to act on critical intelligence, contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kudo Yuusaku is unlikely to be the boss because he knows about his son's investigation and about Haibara being Sherry (see London arc). Even if he did not want to hurt Shinichi, he has made no move beyond asking him to move away once, and hasn't done anything to make sure Shinichi stays protected. If Yuusaku was the boss, it also means he gave an order to kill a family friend: Mouri Kogoro.

There is also a good chance he knows why his wife is visiting the family home: to help with Okiya's disguise. Yukiko does not seem to keep secrets from her husband.

He also is allowing Yukiko, his wife, to get involved in Org plans and risk being blown up on a train.

He would have authorized APTX4869's use as an assassination tool despite knowing it didn't always work.

Okino Yoko - Medium Weak - Contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

Okino Yoko is unlikely to be the boss because she has not made any effort to avoid Kogoro who is thought to be a renowned detective. Yoko also introduced Mizunashi Rena to Mouri Kogoro in order to have Mizunashi's stalker problem solved. Even if the boss was sure of his/her own ability to fool others, the boss would want to avoid interactions between Black Organization operatives and renowned detectives if possible should the detective notice something amiss.
If Yoko was the boss, she should be smart, yet she failed to identify who was stalking and harassing her (that's what she originally went to Kogoro's office for) and deal with them. If she had taken appropriate measures she could have avoided bringing police and a detective to her home.
 
Jimmy_kud0_tv2 says here

  Quote

One of my problems with Yoko being the boss is that she has solidified history that other people are aware of. She attended high school and had a boy friend. She already had a manager by that time, who had to convince the boyfriend to leave. Her idol career started with her being a part of a 4 member group, rather than going straight on to stardom.
If she were the boss, even if she did take some form of APTX, why go through all of the above troubles? Shouldn't a character like the boss, be connected enough to hide without having to go through high school again? Be connected enough to go straight on to stardom without having to be a member of a group first? What would be the purpose of even having a boy friend in this case?

Miyano Akemi - Strong - Requires implausible situation, failure to act on critical intelligence, contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

Akemi is not the boss because she is definitely dead. She died in Conan's arms, and Conan would be smart enough to tell if someone was faking it if they were pretending to die in his arms. Also it would mean she ordered the death of her own sister, and has failed to act on Conan telling her his real name.

Inspector Momose and Inspector Yuminaga - Medium Weak - Failure to act on critical intelligence (Haibara)

  Reveal hidden contents

There really isn't much to go on because of their relatively small number of appearances. They both have had significant contact with Haibara which per the general assumption stated at the top suggests they are not the boss.

Yokomizo Sango and Juugo, and Yamamura Misao - Medium Weak - Failure to act on critical intelligence (Haibara)

  Reveal hidden contents

All have had significant contact with Haibara which would rule them out per the general assumption stated at the top.

Karasuwa/Karasuma Renya (the dead crow guy from the gathered detectives vs. Kid case) - Weak - Backstory would exclude if true, contradictory behavior

  Reveal hidden contents

One thing to note is that Karasuma Renya's story was badly translated so that there are lots of misconceptions about him.
 
1: The "Crow Association" doesn't exist. It was a terrible translation of Karasuma's name.
 
2: The actual story behind the mansion was not properly translated. In truth, Karasuma inherited the mansion from his mother but could not solve the mystery of where the golden treasure is. He started hiring detectives to find the treasure because he wasn't clever enough to do it himself. He then started killing the people he invited to solve the riddle to motivate others to find the treasure quicker. Senma's father was hired to solve the riddle and then killed 40 years ago (which means Karasuma was still alive 40 years ago instead of dying half a century ago like the fake story proclaimed). All of this information contradicts the story about the two strangers, marijuana, and bloodbath, which strongly throws into doubt the authenticity of the story. There is no proof the strangers and their weed actually existed.
 
With these facts in mind we can conclude that Karasuma is greedy to the point of blindness, and not smart enough to rival a detective. It is unlikely the boss of the Black Organization would be this foolish.
 
See this topic for the full rundown of all the misconceptions: http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12660

Suzuki Jirokichi - Medium Strong - Contradictory behavior (endangers self)

  Reveal hidden contents

Gin thought it would be helpful and mislead the investigation if Jirokichi and the police with him were killed when the Bell Tree Express was blown up at the station. Also it would mean the boss was endangering himself by remaining on the platform.

Kaneshiro Genichirou (old man from Night Baron contest) - Weak - Minor contradictory behavior.

  Reveal hidden contents

He appeared in a case where a virus used by the Black Organization came up, and he caught on that Conan is smarter than he seems, but otherwise he is not very distinguished.
It is hard to imagine the eminent boss of the Black Organization writing a girl's dating simulator, or even joking about it. It is true that there is no reason why the boss couldn't be a joker like this guy. (It would annoy Gin)
He messed up pretending to be blind. One of the other attendees (creepy nerdy guy Shirou) knew quite a bit about him and his motivations. I imagine the boss would be more reticent.

 
Fusae out according to this blog: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/forum/topic/1555-translating-interviews/page-8#entry326186
 
To be added: Any one else suggested in comments

[Miss Smiles 105]

How about inspector Momose?

[Metantei Kiddo 147]

  On 5/12/2011 at 2:00 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Not the Boss list

Reasons why various characters are probably not the boss of the Black Organization (ano kata).

In Progress

Generally, the boss should not be anyone who has had more than passing contact with Haibara because the boss would recognize her. Pisco, Vermouth, and Akai all identified Haibara as Shiho very quickly.

James Black

  Reveal hidden contents

James Black hasn't used any of the FBI info to the Org's benefit. Despite knowing extremely incriminating information about Haibara, Conan, Kir, and possibly Vermouth, they are not dead as would be expected if the boss was trying to protect the Organization. James Black also has an alibi.

James knows Haibara is the person called Sherry. (See Volume 42 File 11 discussing the witness protection offer the FBI made Haibara) No one in the Org besides Vermouth has shown any signs of knowing where Sherry is, so basically if James is the boss, he hasn't told anyone even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her. Why would the boss order his subordinates to hunt down Shiho, but not make any effort to help them, or even work against them by aiding the FBI and offering her witness protection? It doesn't make sense.

James also knows about Conan and his effective interference with the Org's plans, but again, there has been no action on James' part. Conan was able to get the best of Vermouth with the FBI's help. He is a dangerous threat. In her intro chapters, Haibara told Conan that she thought the Org would kill him before she had the chance to study him; basically the Org's first priority is to stay secret and then get on with research. Also the boss was stated to be very cautious by Vermouth. Why is the boss risking so much by allowing Conan to run about freely and muck with Org plans?

Also James knows Kir is a CIA spy. Why keep her around? Why can't the BO set a trap for her and kill her while she contacts the CIA, or pretend they caught her calling the CIA? Or knowing she was a CIA spy, couldn't he guess the plan that allowed Kir and Akai to fake Akai's death? (He knows how Camel escaped or could ask him later, and I presume Gin and Vodka have the video) Basically, James would know about the same amount of info as the readers. He should be able to figure it out if he is smart.

If James was the boss, he would know that Vermouth made a move on Sherry, and that Vermouth not only failed to capture/kill her, she also lied about what she was doing and left a "witness" to her plans (Araide) alive. Vermouth made a very big slip-up here. Even if she is his favorite, why should he tolerate destructive-to-the-Organization behavior?

Near the end of FBI vs. the Organization, Gin received permission from the boss to change targets to Mouri Kogoro. At the time Gin's permission was received, James Black was driving a car with Conan and Jodie in it and thus would not be able to manipulate a cellphone while driving without Conan and Jodie noticing.

Agasa Hiroshi

  Reveal hidden contents

Agasa hasn't used any of the damaging information he knows about to the Organization's benefit. If he was the boss, he is behaving contrary to the orders he is issuing his subordinates. Also, he has aided the FBI and Conan in working against the Black Organization and in acquiring information about the Black Organization.

Agasa is keeping Conan's secret, although it has been stated by Haibara that if Conan was discovered, the Black Organization would kill him. Agasa has also made Conan several gadgets which have been used to damage the Organization. He has also helped Conan meet various Black Organization related people (Professor Hirota, the architect Dejima).

Agasa took in and has sheltered Sherry. If Agasa is the boss, he hasn't told anyone about Sherry's location and is instead protecting her even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her and kill her. It doesn't make sense and is counterproductive to give subordinates an order and then work against them.

Vermouth, the BO agent who most likely knows the boss's identity, tried to find a way to separate Haibara from Conan and Agasa. Agasa, if he was the boss, had multiple opportunities to make sure Conan was away and hand Haibara off to Vermouth. He did not do this, nor did he tell Vermouth to back off. Also, he overheard the conversation where Vermouth promised not to go after Sherry anymore, and thus she has traitorous intentions. Vermouth hasn't been killed.

Agasa aided Conan in several endeavors to thwart the Black Organization or collect information about them. These include breaking into Gin's car, passing information to Conan used to identify Pisco, informing Conan that Shiho was being shot on the roof of the Haido City Hotel, helping Conan collect Itakura's disc, aiding Conan in ruining Vermouth's plan, eavesdropping on Vermouth and collecting the number of the Black Organization's boss, and helping Jodie and Conan thwart the DJ assassination. He knows about the tracker that was planted on Kir's shoe and that Conan was the one who planted it, yet the boss gave permission for Kogoro to be killed.

Agasa has wound up in many situations where random criminals have beaten/knocked him unconscious and even threatened to kill him. He has shown no ability to defend himself nor has called for the aids of subordinates despite being in serious danger. He also shown no special deductive ability.

Kisaki Eri

  Reveal hidden contents

If Eri Kisaki was the boss, she ordered her own husband, whom she has loving feelings for, to be killed. Additionally because she was not present when issuing the command, she would not know if Ran was at the Detective agency and thus in the line of fire. This is completely unlike Eri Kisaki's personality.

Yoko Okino

  Reveal hidden contents

Yoko Okino is unlikely to be the boss because she has not made any effort to avoid Kogoro who is thought to be a renowned detective. Yoko Okino also introduced Mizunashi Rena to Mouri Kogoro in order to have Mizunashi's stalker problem solved. The boss would want to avoid interactions between Black Organization operatives and renowned detectives if possible should the detective notice something amiss.

Elena Miyano

  Reveal hidden contents

Elena Miyano is apparently dead, which should rule her out as the boss. In case she is not dead, her personality does not seem suitable for the Black Organization's boss. Elena seemed like a nice person based on the tapes she left for Shiho and her Org codename; "Angel who fell into hell" (Haibara's japanese translation/explanation of "Hell Angel").

Miyano Akemi

  Reveal hidden contents

Akemi is not the boss because she is definitely dead. She died in Conan's arms, and Conan would be smart enough to tell if someone was faking it if they were pretending to die in his arms.

Inspector Momose and Inspector Yuminaga

  Reveal hidden contents

There really isn't much to go on because of their relatively small number of appearances. They both have had significant contact with Haibara which per the general assumption stated at the top suggests they are not the boss.

To be added: Kudo Yuusaku, Mouri Kogoro, and any one else suggested in comments

Possible Bosses for me

1. Agasa

2. Mouri Kogoro

3. Mother and Father of Ai

4. Eri Kisaki

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

Chekov has a point in these suspects, but agasa is like Watson to conan. Cause holmes had watson on his side, and shinichi is holmes in this story. Doubt that aoyama meant the boss to apere in 500+ epis

What is it special (a little ) about the boss that is seen in one other character

  On 5/12/2011 at 2:00 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Not the Boss list

Reasons why various characters are probably not the boss of the Black Organization (ano kata).

In Progress

Generally, the boss should not be anyone who has had more than passing contact with Haibara because the boss would recognize her. Pisco, Vermouth, and Akai all identified Haibara as Shiho very quickly.

James Black

  Reveal hidden contents

James Black hasn't used any of the FBI info to the Org's benefit. Despite knowing extremely incriminating information about Haibara, Conan, Kir, and possibly Vermouth, they are not dead as would be expected if the boss was trying to protect the Organization. James Black also has an alibi.

James knows Haibara is the person called Sherry. (See Volume 42 File 11 discussing the witness protection offer the FBI made Haibara) No one in the Org besides Vermouth has shown any signs of knowing where Sherry is, so basically if James is the boss, he hasn't told anyone even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her. Why would the boss order his subordinates to hunt down Shiho, but not make any effort to help them, or even work against them by aiding the FBI and offering her witness protection? It doesn't make sense.

James also knows about Conan and his effective interference with the Org's plans, but again, there has been no action on James' part. Conan was able to get the best of Vermouth with the FBI's help. He is a dangerous threat. In her intro chapters, Haibara told Conan that she thought the Org would kill him before she had the chance to study him; basically the Org's first priority is to stay secret and then get on with research. Also the boss was stated to be very cautious by Vermouth. Why is the boss risking so much by allowing Conan to run about freely and muck with Org plans?

Also James knows Kir is a CIA spy. Why keep her around? Why can't the BO set a trap for her and kill her while she contacts the CIA, or pretend they caught her calling the CIA? Or knowing she was a CIA spy, couldn't he guess the plan that allowed Kir and Akai to fake Akai's death? (He knows how Camel escaped or could ask him later, and I presume Gin and Vodka have the video) Basically, James would know about the same amount of info as the readers. He should be able to figure it out if he is smart.

If James was the boss, he would know that Vermouth made a move on Sherry, and that Vermouth not only failed to capture/kill her, she also lied about what she was doing and left a "witness" to her plans (Araide) alive. Vermouth made a very big slip-up here. Even if she is his favorite, why should he tolerate destructive-to-the-Organization behavior?

Near the end of FBI vs. the Organization, Gin received permission from the boss to change targets to Mouri Kogoro. At the time Gin's permission was received, James Black was driving a car with Conan and Jodie in it and thus would not be able to manipulate a cellphone while driving without Conan and Jodie noticing.

Agasa Hiroshi

  Reveal hidden contents

Agasa hasn't used any of the damaging information he knows about to the Organization's benefit. If he was the boss, he is behaving contrary to the orders he is issuing his subordinates. Also, he has aided the FBI and Conan in working against the Black Organization and in acquiring information about the Black Organization.

Agasa is keeping Conan's secret, although it has been stated by Haibara that if Conan was discovered, the Black Organization would kill him. Agasa has also made Conan several gadgets which have been used to damage the Organization. He has also helped Conan meet various Black Organization related people (Professor Hirota, the architect Dejima).

Agasa took in and has sheltered Sherry. If Agasa is the boss, he hasn't told anyone about Sherry's location and is instead protecting her even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her and kill her. It doesn't make sense and is counterproductive to give subordinates an order and then work against them.

Vermouth, the BO agent who most likely knows the boss's identity, tried to find a way to separate Haibara from Conan and Agasa. Agasa, if he was the boss, had multiple opportunities to make sure Conan was away and hand Haibara off to Vermouth. He did not do this, nor did he tell Vermouth to back off. Also, he overheard the conversation where Vermouth promised not to go after Sherry anymore, and thus she has traitorous intentions. Vermouth hasn't been killed.

Agasa aided Conan in several endeavors to thwart the Black Organization or collect information about them. These include breaking into Gin's car, passing information to Conan used to identify Pisco, informing Conan that Shiho was being shot on the roof of the Haido City Hotel, helping Conan collect Itakura's disc, aiding Conan in ruining Vermouth's plan, eavesdropping on Vermouth and collecting the number of the Black Organization's boss, and helping Jodie and Conan thwart the DJ assassination. He knows about the tracker that was planted on Kir's shoe and that Conan was the one who planted it, yet the boss gave permission for Kogoro to be killed.

Agasa has wound up in many situations where random criminals have beaten/knocked him unconscious and even threatened to kill him. He has shown no ability to defend himself nor has called for the aids of subordinates despite being in serious danger. He also shown no special deductive ability.

Kisaki Eri

  Reveal hidden contents

If Eri Kisaki was the boss, she ordered her own husband, whom she has loving feelings for, to be killed. Additionally because she was not present when issuing the command, she would not know if Ran was at the Detective agency and thus in the line of fire. This is completely unlike Eri Kisaki's personality.

Yoko Okino

  Reveal hidden contents

Yoko Okino is unlikely to be the boss because she has not made any effort to avoid Kogoro who is thought to be a renowned detective. Yoko Okino also introduced Mizunashi Rena to Mouri Kogoro in order to have Mizunashi's stalker problem solved. The boss would want to avoid interactions between Black Organization operatives and renowned detectives if possible should the detective notice something amiss.

Elena Miyano

  Reveal hidden contents

Elena Miyano is apparently dead, which should rule her out as the boss. In case she is not dead, her personality does not seem suitable for the Black Organization's boss. Elena seemed like a nice person based on the tapes she left for Shiho and her Org codename; "Angel who fell into hell" (Haibara's japanese translation/explanation of "Hell Angel").

Miyano Akemi

  Reveal hidden contents

Akemi is not the boss because she is definitely dead. She died in Conan's arms, and Conan would be smart enough to tell if someone was faking it if they were pretending to die in his arms.

Inspector Momose and Inspector Yuminaga

  Reveal hidden contents

There really isn't much to go on because of their relatively small number of appearances. They both have had significant contact with Haibara which per the general assumption stated at the top suggests they are not the boss.

To be added: Kudo Yuusaku, Mouri Kogoro, and any one else suggested in comments

My guess is Sango Yokomizo, Misao Yamamura, Jugo Yokomizo, Jirokichi Suzuki, Misae Yamamura,

[IdentityUnknown 216]

  On 5/12/2011 at 11:47 AM, Balthazar said:

Chekov has a point in these suspects, but agasa is like Watson to conan. Cause holmes had watson on his side, and shinichi is holmes in this story. Doubt that aoyama meant the boss to apere in 500+ epis

  On 5/12/2011 at 12:19 PM, Balthazar said:

What is it special (a little ) about the boss that is seen in one other character

  On 5/12/2011 at 12:44 PM, Balthazar said:

My guess is Sango Yokomizo, Misao Yamamura, Jugo Yokomizo, Jirokichi Suzuki, Misae Yamamura,

Balthazar...

  Reveal hidden contents

Don't double post. There's a handy edit button. And I'm not singling you out, I do this to everyone.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

if the boss did not came in contact with ai, who are the suspects then

  On 5/12/2011 at 2:00 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Not the Boss list

Reasons why various characters are probably not the boss of the Black Organization (ano kata).

In Progress

General info about the boss and speculations

  Reveal hidden contents

Boss’s Personality/Background

1) The syndicate leader uses the song “Seven children/ Seven year old child” to encode his/her email. It is likely the Boss is probably Japanese, grew up in Japan, or had Japanese parents, relatives, or spouse as this children’s song is not well known elsewhere.

2) The operatives dress in black, which Akemi says is supposed to resemble crows. This is probably an expression of the boss’s dress code preferences. The choice to use Nanatsu no Ko as a phone number is probably also a reference to crows as well.

3) Uses alcoholic codenames.

4) The organization uses clever codenames, passwords, etc. based on mysteries and history. If the boss is behind the naming scheme then perhaps the boss has an interest in detectives and mysteries.

5) The org has ties to America although the only overseas components occur before the current storyline. The involvement of the American intelligence agencies is testament to this. Perhaps the boss has spent some time in America as well, although that’s not a requisite.

6) The boss is very careful. In file 704 Vermouth says, “The boss is always careful to the extreme. He’s the type to ruin the plan by overthinking it.” (Endless Youth scan.)

Boss’s opinions/relations

1) Vermouth is the boss’s favorite so he/she allows her some independence and overlooks some of her potentially dangerous behavior. It’s confusing why Vermouth is the boss’s favorite when she is the type to actively engage in behavior which is encouraging the syndicate’s downfall - like protecting Conan and allowing Ai to escape. (The boss doesn't know the specifics of course) I have a hard time believing the boss could not see that it is within Vermouth's personality to harbor sympathies or engage in behavior which is counterproductive to the org. Obviously Vermouth has some characteristic that makes up for her actions. (The failure to age possibility?) At the same time the leader can also command the absolute respect of a wildcard like Gin who vocally despises traitors. Why would Gin follow a person who tolerates rogue agents like Vermouth? All of this makes me wonder what exactly makes Gin so loyal. Whatever the reason, the boss clearly knows people well enough to balance these contradictory personalities and their agendas successfully.

2) The Boss thought Akai Shuuichi could become the org’s silver bullet. (434) In that regard he/she's more like Vermouth than Gin who doesn't believe a single person who can take the syndicate down in one shot exists.

Boss’s Location

The infamous Nanatsu no ko number might have a Tottori area code; however, the number, including the area code, was altered to prevent prank calls. In the star case in 45-9, Haibara reacts to the word Kurayoshi – a city in Tottori province. (466)

Boss’s Age

The organization has been around for over 50 years. (file 189, but see the ep 130/131 for a better translation) If the boss has been the same for those fifty years, assuming the boss started the organization at around 20, that would put him/her at 70+ years of age.

As a bottom end estimate, Haibara grew up within the organization and she hasn't mentioned there being a changeover in bosses. (Not that she mentions much of anything regarding the org…) Assuming she remembers things from when she was 6 or 7, that would put the boss at around 30 years at a minimum; however, due to aging wonkiness, the boss may not appear to be as old as he/she is.

Extra Detective Conan book info

Supposedly, Aoyama gave an interview for a book where he discussed the boss. The validity of this info is uncertain as I have not seen the primary source, nor have I seen anyone post it. Therefore the following information and the speculation based on it may be incorrect.

  Reveal hidden contents

http://forums.dctp.ws/index.php?topic=463.msg6015#msg6015

1 Aoyama had already put the name of the boss somewhere on the manga in some form or another. If I knew when this quote was made, then I could narrow it down to chapters before this point. It’s at least before chapter 644 due to the book’s publishing date, but likely much earlier than that. Some of Aoyama’s Gosho’s interviews place back to around chap 560 or so.

2) Aoyama suggested that the true name of the syndicate, which has also never been revealed, is tied to the identity of its leader. If the Black Organization's real name were revealed, everyone would know who its leader is. This seems like a pretty big hint. I strongly doubt Gosho would do something as direct as naming the organization after the boss's last name. Given the organization’s use of classic literature, especially of the mystery genre, and allegory, the organization’s true name is probably a clever reference or a play on words.

3) Aoyama also said that Ai would be really shocked if she discovered who the boss is. “It’s someone that Haibara would never have expected.” Ai is very paranoid and untrusting, so the condition that the identity of the boss would really shock Ai helps narrow down the cases. There are several possibilities.

1)

She trusts this person dearly. There’s a pretty limited number of people that fit this criteria and most of them seem to be dead or are protagonists and therefore very unlikely to be the boss.

2)

The person wouldn’t fit Ai’s expectations

2.1)

The person seems "useless" or of unsuitable personality to actually think of them as being a mastermind behind a large organization. Ai would have had to meet this person personally so that she could gauge their personality and subsequently write them off as unlikely to be anyone of consequence. This person would almost certainly not trigger Ai’s “black org sense.”

2.2)

The boss’s front job or status is unexpected like a policeman or a school teacher rather than a scientist, company boss, or political figure. It would have to be an unusually benign front to really shock Ai. This person would probably not trigger Ai’s “black org sense” either.

2.3)

The boss is relative of someone close to Ai. This is the “evil relative theory”; one of the protagonist’s relatives is the boss or has a direct connection to the boss. The unlikelihood that the honestly good protagonist has some sort of connection to the head of the evil syndicate makes it shocking. The boss could also literally be Ai’s blood-relative, but considering her family’s underworld connections, I’m not sure that Ai is naïve enough to assume that one of her relatives couldn’t be the boss.

2.4)

The person's age is unexpected. Given the aging wonkiness that has gone on there is a possibility that the boss could even be a “child” somehow mucked up by drugs or whatnot which would explain why the boss only uses email to avoid allowing people to hear his/her youthful voice and avoids letting people meet him/her although this behavior can simply be explained as generic cautiousness. In this case, Shiho wouldn’t need to have met the boss before to be surprised.

3)

She thinks this person is dead. Her parents would be an example of this, although that means they ordered the death of both of their daughters. Shiho’s mom especially seems unlikely to do so based on the tapes.

=================================================================

Generally, the boss should not be anyone who has had more than passing contact with Haibara because the boss would recognize her. Pisco, Vermouth, and Akai all identified Haibara as Shiho very quickly.

James Black

  Reveal hidden contents

James Black hasn't used any of the FBI info to the Org's benefit. Despite knowing extremely incriminating information about Haibara, Conan, Kir, and possibly Vermouth, they are not dead as would be expected if the boss was trying to protect the Organization. James Black also has an alibi.

James knows Haibara is the person called Sherry. (See Volume 42 File 11 discussing the witness protection offer the FBI made Haibara) No one in the Org besides Vermouth has shown any signs of knowing where Sherry is, so basically if James is the boss, he hasn't told anyone even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her. Why would the boss order his subordinates to hunt down Shiho, but not make any effort to help them, or even work against them by aiding the FBI and offering her witness protection? It doesn't make sense.

James also knows about Conan and his effective interference with the Org's plans, but again, there has been no action on James' part. Conan was able to get the best of Vermouth with the FBI's help. He is a dangerous threat. In her intro chapters, Haibara told Conan that she thought the Org would kill him before she had the chance to study him; basically the Org's first priority is to stay secret and then get on with research. Also the boss was stated to be very cautious by Vermouth. Why is the boss risking so much by allowing Conan to run about freely and muck with Org plans?

Also James knows Kir is a CIA spy. Why keep her around? Why can't the BO set a trap for her and kill her while she contacts the CIA, or pretend they caught her calling the CIA? Or knowing she was a CIA spy, couldn't he guess the plan that allowed Kir and Akai to fake Akai's death? (He knows how Camel escaped or could ask him later, and I presume Gin and Vodka have the video) Basically, James would know about the same amount of info as the readers. He should be able to figure it out if he is smart.

If James was the boss, he would know that Vermouth made a move on Sherry, and that Vermouth not only failed to capture/kill her, she also lied about what she was doing and left a "witness" to her plans (Araide) alive. Vermouth made a very big slip-up here. Even if she is his favorite, why should he tolerate destructive-to-the-Organization behavior?

Near the end of FBI vs. the Organization, Gin received permission from the boss to change targets to Mouri Kogoro. At the time Gin's permission was received, James Black was driving a car with Conan and Jodie in it and thus would not be able to manipulate a cellphone while driving without Conan and Jodie noticing.

Agasa Hiroshi

  Reveal hidden contents

Agasa hasn't used any of the damaging information he knows about to the Organization's benefit. If he was the boss, he is behaving contrary to the orders he is issuing his subordinates. Also, he has aided the FBI and Conan in working against the Black Organization and in acquiring information about the Black Organization.

Agasa is keeping Conan's secret, although it has been stated by Haibara that if Conan was discovered, the Black Organization would kill him. Agasa has also made Conan several gadgets which have been used to damage the Organization. He has also helped Conan meet various Black Organization related people (Professor Hirota, the architect Dejima).

Agasa took in and has sheltered Sherry. If Agasa is the boss, he hasn't told anyone about Sherry's location and is instead protecting her even though he directed his subordinates to go look for her and kill her. It doesn't make sense and is counterproductive to give subordinates an order and then work against them.

Vermouth, the BO agent who most likely knows the boss's identity, tried to find a way to separate Haibara from Conan and Agasa. Agasa, if he was the boss, had multiple opportunities to make sure Conan was away and hand Haibara off to Vermouth. He did not do this, nor did he tell Vermouth to back off. Also, he overheard the conversation where Vermouth promised not to go after Sherry anymore, and thus she has traitorous intentions. Vermouth hasn't been killed.

Agasa aided Conan in several endeavors to thwart the Black Organization or collect information about them. These include breaking into Gin's car, passing information to Conan used to identify Pisco, informing Conan that Shiho was being shot on the roof of the Haido City Hotel, helping Conan collect Itakura's disc, aiding Conan in ruining Vermouth's plan, eavesdropping on Vermouth and collecting the number of the Black Organization's boss, and helping Jodie and Conan thwart the DJ assassination. He knows about the tracker that was planted on Kir's shoe and that Conan was the one who planted it, yet the boss gave permission for Kogoro to be killed.

Agasa has wound up in many situations where random criminals have beaten/knocked him unconscious and even threatened to kill him. He has shown no ability to defend himself nor has called for the aids of subordinates despite being in serious danger. He also shown no special deductive ability.

Elena Miyano

  Reveal hidden contents

Elena Miyano is apparently dead, which should rule her out as the boss. In case she is not dead, her personality does not seem suitable for the Black Organization's boss. Elena seemed like a nice person based on the tapes she left for Shiho and her Org codename; "Angel who fell into hell" (Haibara's japanese translation/explanation of "Hell Angel"). Also if she was the boss, it meant she conspired to kill her daughter Miyano Akemi, and then later Miyano Shiho.

Miyano Atsushi

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Miyano Atsushi is apparently dead, which should rule him out as the boss. In case he is not dead, while we don't know much about his personality, he cared enough about Miyano Akemi to bring her with him and Elena to visit an old friend. Also, Elena seems to have a nice personality (explained above) so, could the cold and ruthless boss form a stable relationship with someone like her? Also, if Atsushi was the boss, it meant he conspired to kill his daughter Miyano Akemi, and then later Miyano Shiho.

Kisaki Eri

  Reveal hidden contents

If Eri Kisaki was the boss, she ordered her own husband, whom she has loving feelings for, to be killed. Additionally because she was not present when issuing the command, she would not know if Ran was at the Detective agency and thus in the line of fire. This is completely unlike Eri Kisaki's personality.

Mouri Kogoro

  Reveal hidden contents

The boss wouldn't give Gin orders for his own assassination, which is what occurred in FBI vs. the Black Org.

Yoko Okino

  Reveal hidden contents

Yoko Okino is unlikely to be the boss because she has not made any effort to avoid Kogoro who is thought to be a renowned detective. Yoko Okino also introduced Mizunashi Rena to Mouri Kogoro in order to have Mizunashi's stalker problem solved. The boss would want to avoid interactions between Black Organization operatives and renowned detectives if possible should the detective notice something amiss.

Miyano Akemi

  Reveal hidden contents

Akemi is not the boss because she is definitely dead. She died in Conan's arms, and Conan would be smart enough to tell if someone was faking it if they were pretending to die in his arms.

Inspector Momose and Inspector Yuminaga

  Reveal hidden contents

There really isn't much to go on because of their relatively small number of appearances. They both have had significant contact with Haibara which per the general assumption stated at the top suggests they are not the boss.

Yokomizo Sango and Juugo, and Misao Yamamura

  Reveal hidden contents

All have had significant contact with Haibara which would rule them out per the general assumption stated at the top.

To be added: Kudo Yuusaku and any one else suggested in comments

Judging by what you said the only 70+ years, who has not seen ai, and was born in japan and is close to tottori is Misae Yamamura

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

  On 5/12/2011 at 5:46 PM, Balthazar said:

Judging by what you said the only 70+ years, who has not seen ai, and was born in japan and is close to tottori is Misae Yamamura

Misae seems to be a gag character more than anything. Also she was introduced rather late.

Regarding the boss's age at 70+, I have a hunch the boss has aging wonkiness going on as well. My theory, although without evidence, is the boss was involved in the same project that Vermouth, aka Sharon Vineyard's mother, was affected by 50+ years ago. (Relevant posts copied below for convenience)

  Reveal hidden contents

Vermouth's aging wonkiness and cause

Right now, it isn't clear if Vermouth isn't aging at all or got younger at some point because of an experimental drug. She probably never took APTX4869 because, at the time, the Org believed (and still believes) that APTX was incomplete and that it only worked as a poison. Vermouth would have needed to take something else.

Sharon’s mother may also be Vermouth because she died in a fire on the day Sharon debuted. (vol 35-1 page 2) Sharon may not be Vermouth’s first alias. Vermouth would currently have to be 70-85 if Sharon's mom was also Vermouth as well. This would imply that APTX in its current incarnation isn’t the source of Vermouth’s apparent failure to age. Shiho’s parents and their experiments are too young to account for the timepoint. It would have to be Shiho’s grandparents or something else.

Based on the above info, it could be that something affected Vermouth a long time ago which halted her aging, but the Org has been unable to replicate the effects. Atsushi and Elena Miyano may have created APTX4869 based on Vermouth. Later when Shiho took up the research, she would have had to come into contact with Vermouth which explains why despite being a researcher, she knows Vermouth well enough personally to be terrified.

Note that if Vermouth's aging was halted when she was 20-30 years old, the triggering event would have occurred 50+ years before the current time, matching up with Shiho's quote about how Kudo is part of an Org project that has been going on for over half a century. (file 189, but see the ep 130/131 for a better translation) The project she is mentioning is the Org's immortality project that started with Vermouth and which APTX4869 is a subproject within.

Vermouth's resentment of her condition is probably the reason behind her dislike of all the Miyanos and their “foolish”(434) research. Vermouth's resentment may also be why she seems to want the Black Org brought down - she is tired of it all. I imagine her non-aging is also the reason for the boss's favoritism.

========================================

So here is an example version of a timeline for Vermouth where I have tried to keep Vermouth's age real age to a minimum. There is more flexibility if Vermouth is actually older.

•Vermouth is ~25-30 (55-60 years before the current timeline) - Something halts Vermouth's aging.

You could call this the project start date even though it may have been going on before and Vermouth may not know she was not aging yet. The reason is that if Vermouth was exposed to something that halts aging, someone around her responsible for getting her exposed is likely to be working on a project with the intent of lengthening lifespan or something like that.

•Vermouth is ~30-35 (50-55 years before the current timeline) Vermouth realizes she is not aging and she now knows she is going to need a false identity to become or else people around her are going to start to notice.

Creating a false child identity isn't as hard as it sounds back then because there were no electronic records that are easy to check on and with bribery, fake papers, and whatnot, it's possible to create a proper paper trail especially if she has the Black Org's help (or what will become the Black Org). Vermouth could pretend her child was adopted or something like that at an older age so she could switch in sooner. You could also assume this was the project start date as well.

In the ~20 year interim between her current state she could become Sharon, she could work on disguise and acting, skills necessary for being an actress and for creating the appearance of a daughter if necessary.

•Vermouth is ~50-55 (30-35 years before the current timeline) Vermouth now has the ability to swap into her Sharon role who aged to approximately just graduated from high school age.

She rises to stardom and kills off Sharon's mom when she debuts in a movie and takes up Sharon's role in full. She starts working on backdating the Chris identity I assume by faking a pregnancy or something like that.

The Miyanos start their research 30 years prior to the current timeline.

Vermouth kills Jodie's father 20 years prior to the current timeline.

~20 years ago Sharon learns disguise from Kuroba Toichi (Yukiko learned disguise back when she was a beginning actress. She started her career while in high-school. Yukiko is 37)

•Vermouth is ~70-75 (~10 years before the current timeline) Chris has become old enough to disguise as because role has aged to approximately just graduated from high school age. She begins to work on Chris's stardom, but keeps Chris's private life a secret

•Vermouth is ~80-85 (<1 years before the current timeline) Vermouth kills off Sharon and takes up Chris full time.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

Why not make a board of these points you have of the boss and put character that fit in them and narrow down by the ones you think that could be or not

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

  On 5/12/2011 at 6:12 PM, Balthazar said:

Why not make a board of these points you have of the boss and put character that fit in them and narrow down by the ones you think that could be or not

That's what I am doing.

Also, back on DCTP I started a thread of ideas and speculations about pretty much everything. It's outdated though, there is new stuff to add and some minor corrections to be made, so it may not be worthwhile to read. It's also long. Very long.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

  On 5/12/2011 at 6:21 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

That's what I am doing.

Also, back on DCTP I started a thread of ideas and speculations about pretty much everything. It's outdated though, there is new stuff to add and some minor corrections to be made, so it may not be worthwhile to read. It's also long. Very long.

I like reading your theory's no mater how long

[Stopwatch 36]

  On 5/12/2011 at 2:00 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Yokomizo Sango and Juugo, and Misao Yamamura

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All have had significant contact with Haibara which would rule them out per the general assumption stated at the top.

Maybe you could expand on these points and add them to the Yokomizo + Yamamura section:

-Yamamura's grandmother (unless they're both lying it seems that the age difference in what age Anokata should be and what age Yamamura is unexplainable...)

-Yokomizo brother's flashback thing 'bout swimming (I think there was a lifeboat or something like that in it, someone might want to check that, but if there is some sort of modern-ish equipment then they're probably telling the truth about their ages).

-They're all police officers. From what is heavily implied throughout the series there should already be undercover BO members in the police, why make the risk of capture higher when the org wouldn't really benefit from it...

-And if Yamamura was the boss wouldn't he have realised about the tranquiliser darts and perhaps even put surveillance on Conan.

G'night then...

[hopes 237]

Yep... Now I'm officially confused... :mellow:

[Akazora 293]

  On 5/17/2011 at 12:40 AM, Akakata said:

Yep... Now I'm officially confused... :mellow:

Try not to think too hard about it.

Eventually, the Boss will be revealed and we'll all laugh at our ridiculous deductions.

And the person who turns out to be correct gets bragging rights.

[Stopwatch 36]

  On 5/17/2011 at 12:40 AM, Akakata said:

Yep... Now I'm officially confused... :mellow:

What are you confused over?

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

Chek has all kind of suspects but cant point out which one is the boss :cry:

[Glass Heart 34]

  On 5/17/2011 at 3:13 AM, Meitantei Holmes said:

Try not to think too hard about it.

Eventually, the Boss will be revealed and we'll all laugh at our ridiculous deductions.

And the person who turns out to be correct gets bragging rights.

Let's look at it this way: who are the members of the organization in their social covers ?

Pisco: A business man, chairman of a car company.

Vermouth: An Hollywood legend.

Kir: A TV news reporter.

The organization has the means to place its members on the highest level of society. And they have the best scientists and computer engineers of the world. They have also the best professional killers.

I'm also pretty sure they have also agents in the highest level of police and justice, especially if things went wrong. And they have a great detective in their ranks that they can use if things become suspectful (like in the Kogoro Mouri's case).

Who would be powerful and wealthy enough to have such an organization and to keep it such a secret ? Knowing that he could have a cover more modest and a different personality for Aoyama to play with us.

One person I would rule out instantly is Jirokichi Suzuki because he would be too evident (but the fact that Ran has a very wealthy girl has her best friend is kinda suspectful though). Every children/teenagers of the series can also be ruled out instantly, I think. The same goes for Kogoro Mouri and Agasa.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

  On 5/17/2011 at 3:26 PM, Balthazar said:

Chek has all kind of suspects but cant point out which one is the boss :cry:

Someone we haven't met yet!

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

then the boss was only mentioned by name since on your not the boss list you ruled all character's out that appeared more then 3 times

[Akazora 293]

  On 5/17/2011 at 4:44 PM, Glass Heart said:

Let's look at it this way: who are the members of the organization in their social covers ?

Pisco: A business man, chairman of a car company.

Vermouth: An Hollywood legend.

Kir: A TV news reporter.

The organization has the means to place its members on the highest level of society. And they have the best scientists and computer engineers of the world. They have also the best professional killers.

I'm also pretty sure they have also agents in the highest level of police and justice, especially if things went wrong. And they have a great detective in their ranks that they can use if things become suspectful (like in the Kogoro Mouri's case).

Who would be powerful and wealthy enough to have such an organization and to keep it such a secret ? Knowing that he could have a cover more modest and a different personality for Aoyama to play with us.

One person I would rule out instantly is Jirokichi Suzuki because he would be too evident (but the fact that Ran has a very wealthy girl has her best friend is kinda suspectful though). Every children/teenagers of the series can also be ruled out instantly, I think. The same goes for Kogoro Mouri and Agasa.

The alleged Bourbon could be the detective.

As for the police, they might have some member in there, but probably someone not yet mentioned or introduced.

It would be a crime to have one of the already mentioned police members actually be a BO member.

As for the Boss, who would he or she be?

If we consider the Yoko theory, she's just a singer.

She's probably doing nothing but collecting money and helping to finance the missions.

For the Boss, he or she could have at least more say in politics and other stuff.

I guess that would be one flaw in the Yoko theory.

[KudoKun18 6]

Do you think the organization really has some "connection" from the police?

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

  On 5/18/2011 at 6:26 AM, KudoKun18 said:

Do you think the organization really has some "connection" from the police?

It is a strong possibility, he definitely has some connection in the legal system

[Glass Heart 34]

  On 5/18/2011 at 6:26 AM, KudoKun18 said:

Do you think the organization really has some "connection" from the police?

For an important organization, it is very likely that they have several policemen (including some high-ranking to put pressions on some investigations) and some judges and attorneys in their hands. It is a very strong possibility. But I don't think the boss is a policeman himself.

And I'm pretty sure that Eri Kisaki will have an important role at one point or another of the story. Such a competent attorney, either she is part of it, either she will become a menace for them.

And there is the fact that Aoyama seems to try to prevent Haibara and Kisaki's meeting which is also strange, so she could be part of the Black Organization.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

  On 5/18/2011 at 5:37 PM, Glass Heart said:

For an important organization, it is very likely that they have several policemen (including some high-ranking to put pressions on some investigations) and some judges and attorneys in their hands. It is a very strong possibility. But I don't think the boss is a policeman himself.

And I'm pretty sure that Eri Kisaki will have an important role at one point or another of the story. Such a competent attorney, either she is part of it, either she will become a menace for them.

And there is the fact that Aoyama seems to try to prevent Haibara and Kisaki's meeting which is also strange, so she could be part of the Black Organization.

Eri is not a BO member

not by a mile, ep 425 explains it