[SPOILER DISCUSSION] File 909-912 (Nagano's Kamaitachi case)

[Akazora 293]

  On 11/6/2014 at 8:41 PM, Professor Balthazar said:

he said it is

its better this way, monster haunter yamamura

Wait, haunter or hunter?

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Round two, now that translations are out:

What concerns me is that the old man yelled out while all the suspects were with the detectives. That likely means the man either 1) hadn't died yet and it was something else that made him yell - then he was killed later while the detectives were running around outside 2) Whatever killed him was an automated mechanism or 3) There is a fourth suspect.

The gash in the door and the lights having gone out may be related to the technique the culprit used. One suggestion is that the culprit only pretended to run with the detectives around outside to the annex and instead turned back and bee-lined across the bathwater in order to kill the old man before the detectives arrived. If that is true, then they broke the lights and made a gash in the door as a distraction. The lights going out made the man yell. They wanted to focus attention to the room with body right away so no one would realize they had slunk in from a different direction in the shadows.

Since none of the fragments of lightbulb have blood, I'm going to have to revise my solution for that part a bit. I'm going to guess for now the bulb was broken with a water gun rather than a piece of gum - I think the culprit would have collected the gum if they used that - and pieces of the bulb would have been sticking to it. Squirt the bulb with cold water and it will break at a distance. Something else was used by the culprit to cut in the dark.

There might be yet another technique still that I have overlooked that was the cause of the fluorescent lightbulb and the balloons popping in the child's room. It could be related to cold.

The next thing that needs to be explained is for what purpose did the culprit (assuming it is the same culprit) cut people in the dark in the warehouse. Is there a psychological trap, or were they attempting to portray themselves as a victim to avoid suspicion? Is it possible that the bulb breaking and all the cuts were accidents? I can't think of any way that could be true, but maybe I need to reconsider.

One of the items stolen from the warehouse might have been cornstarch or something else you can add to water to make it shear thicken.

I'd like to point out that Hattori might not have noticed he was cut right away if his skin was chilled. That's why the kamaitachi appears in cold places. Cold skin is numb and registers pain slower, so by the time someone realizes they have been cut and are bleeding, they have already moved past whatever caused the injury. The myth of the kamaitachi was created to explain that discrepancy.

(Note to self: check the dyed haired lady's fingernails in 911. They were painted with stars before.)

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

  On 11/6/2014 at 11:10 PM, Akazora said:

Wait, haunter or hunter?

lol, guess its hunter

nice pics

[Kurara-chan 13]

i do learn about viscosity last semester, but i haven't try to make ooblek (water+cornstarch). how many cornstarch that would be needed? it's an outdoor bath after all, they should be in a large number. cleaning will be hard too. conan and heiji haven't check the bath, right?

[moroboshi dai 11]

file 911

 

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3402969895

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

thank you

the confession is most likely gonna end like in the illusion case 

[User 4869 100]

File 911 English is out

 

andddd,.... I've not read it.

[Guest]

I want to copy over what I posted to the DCTP Forums version of this topic just to get other peoples opinions on it possibly before the last chapter comes out. Warning: each spoiler box is a wall of text. (lets hope the spoiler/quote boxes work when copy pasted over) What I though changed several times, so its probably only necessary to read the last one if you choose to. 

 

Posted immediately after 910 chinese release

  Quote

  Reveal hidden contents

Here is how I see the first chapter's mystery going down, the getting cut in the dark room. First off, there is one person who could shatter the light bulb and then move around in the dark cutting people and then hide the weapon in plain sight. It seems that some of the people at the Spoiler box have already figured out how the light bulb was shattered. Gum. Gum was placed on the light bulb which concentrated heat into a single spot to shatter the light bulb. (See this reddit page on something similar done in the tv show Lie to Me : Link) But how did the person see in the dark? and Where did the weapon go? One trick to see in the dark would be to cover one eye with an eye patch so that eye is very sensitive to light.... another way is to wear Red Tinted glasses. At this source : Link Tip #4 suggests that "Red-tinted lens works by filtering out everything in the visible spectrum except red. Since the rods in our eye rods aren't sensitive to red, the glasses create an illusion of darkness for your eyes to start adjusting to low light." While this source : Link Point #2 suggests that you can get flash blindness while wearing Red-tinted lenses, you can compensate by closing one eye to prevent what its known as "flash blindness". When the culprit approached the lamp, all they would have to do is close one eye while placing the gum on the light bulb, then look away from the light. They would still have a few seconds for their eyes to adjust back to the low light of the Red-tinted glasses. THEN, once the light goes out, they would be able to slightly see in the dark and could move around to cut the victims, while the victims would stay still because their eyes would still be adjusting to the low level light. I'm saying that Koyanagi Midori, the female reporter did this. The weapon was actually really simple. It was her fingernails. Most likely she sharpened one of her fingernails and then broke or clipped it. My reason for saying this is most clear from her panel on the last page of the first chapter of this story 909. There is blood on her fingernails. ALL of her fingernails. When you get cut on the face and reach up to touch it, you shouldn't get that much blood on the backs of your fingers just by touching the wound. Midori rigged the light bulb to explode and then used her glasses, which appear tinted, to see in the dark and move around to cut the two detectives Kogoro and Heiji (she wouldn't know that Conan is one as well). She then had to cut her self to explain why there would be blood on her hands. By reaching up towards her wound when light was pointed toward her, she completes the illusion that she was cut by someone else and she was panicking and rubbing the wound and getting blood on her hands. Not a single person in that group would have any problem at all with her washing her hands to get the blood off. Plus... now that everyone knows that there was blood on her hands, if her hand were tested with luminous then everyone would just think that the positive result would be the blood from her own wound. As Conan explains at the beginning of the chapter, only THE CLAWS of the Kamaitachi are shaped like sickles. However, I am having difficulty linking her to the original appearance of the Kamaitachi. Its possible that the owner and the male reporter collaborated on that stunt. Another thing mentioned on the Spoiler box is that it is possible that the spa tub was filled with non-newtonian fluid ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2XQ97XHjVw ). This would litterally allow you to run across the surface of the liquid because adults have a higher center of gravity and would put less stress on the surface. The kid however, has a lot lower of a center of gravity and would sink. As for chapter 910, I think its highly possible that we will find out that Koyanagi Midori was either a previous employee who has come back with a different appearance (unlikely because she is only 26), or that she may have been present during the original faking of the photo for the Kamaitachi, either assisting with it, or was one of the people that got peeped on during the candid camera photo shoot that got turned in at the same time as the Kamaitachi photo. Adding to her list of things that make her guilty is that she tossed a rock out into the water of the spa tub to show that you can't walk on it as they were going toward the sound of the Old man. If any one of the adults had tried to run through the water thinking it would be quicker than going around, the trick of the water might have been discovered. This at least means that she knows the trick done there and possibly is the one who murdered the Old man.

 

Posted after 910 was out in English

  Quote

  Reveal hidden contents

I really liked the gum theory because the internet showed it can work, and the character is chewing gum right up until then, with the gum found afterwords. It is possible she used the gum plus something else to make sure that it exploded though. If you look at the panel that shows us the light bulb exploding, you can see a little black bump on top of the light fixture that you can't see in any of the other panels. Maybe this is part of the something else? As the owner mentioned in ch910, a "thief" broke into the storage shed and did not take anything, this easily could be her figuring out and setting up this trick (like disabling the other light bulb).  One thing really bothers me about the victim at the end of 910 though. The scythe is a pretty big weapon and it looks like the victim has three distinct stab wounds from the point of the blade. In order to get three stab wounds from the point of the blade, the victim would have to have been standing at a really weird angle for the murderer to swing that giant scythe and hit him with the blade point, OR the victim could have been on the ground for all three wounds.  The question of the day is, what was the victim screaming about when they heard him scream? All of the suspects and main characters were gathered at the little boy's room at the time of that scream because he experienced a similar light explosion trick followed by popping balloons. I don't think the victim was being murdered when we heard his scream, mostly because the main suspect was still with everyone else. Maybe the scream was from something that caused him to fall to the floor and possibly loose consciousness?  ....The Owner, who doesn't seem to know why lights keep exploding seems to know about the walking over the hot springs water. When asked if there was a short cut she responded with that the quickest even though she still had knowledge that there was water in the pool and that it hadn't been cleaned. I think she was almost willing to reveal the trick because she really though that the old man might be hurt. However Koyanagi Midori, the female reporter tossed a rock or something into the pool to show you can't walk on water and maybe the owner had second thoughts. However here is where I think things happened. Once the main characters begin to run around to the other entrance, I think Midori split off and took the short cut over the pool of liquid and killed him and then rejoined the group while they were in the darkness of the annex. I think this mainly because all of the panels that show them running to the other entrance only really show the Owner, Kogoro, Heiji, and Conan (and what looks like Yamamura in the angle from above in the snow). You can't see the faces of either reporter until they appear behind the main cast after they find the body on the last page of the chapter. As for the hole in the sliding door, for some reason, I don't buy that it was sliced with the scythe, it almost looks like something impacted it in the center and then the rip spread outward.

 

Posted This morning

  Quote

  Reveal hidden contents

To summarize the points I had above, I think the killer is Koyanagi Midori. I think that she used the bubble gum she was chewing, possibly combined with something else to break the light bulb. The glasses shes wearing are shaded, probably red, and those would help her see in the dark once the lights went out. Then I thought that she could have used her fingernails (sharpened) to cut both Heiji and Kogoro, and then herself. This would explain the extra blood on both of her hands on the back of each finger. However due to ch911 I think this needs reworking. Conan finds blood on the sliding door that was cut in the annex building. This means there is probably still blood on the weapon used in this apart of the case, which can't be her fingernails because she would have had to wash them. Now I am thinking the glasses serve a double purpose. Most glasses have rubber or plastic stoppers on the ends of the parts that go behind your ears, which could be covering a sharpened points that still have blood from Heiji's and Kogoro's arms. The main problem I have having is the balloon popping. The way it is described is that the florescent lamp blew, then the balloons went out one by one (ch910). Then later Ran says that several of the balloons burst at the same time (ch911). Then they explain that while this is happening that droplets of a really cold liquid dripped on them even with the window shutters closed, and that the room smelled like bathroom detergent. When trying to look this up I kept seeing experiments to pop balloons using liquid nitrogen, but that would be way to dangerous for just trying to scare someone and would probably hurt really bad if it dripped directly on someone. On top of this they found several BB gun shells and a hole to shoot through, but that would be difficult to do with out hitting someone as well as to hit several balloons at once from an odd angle. I really don't think that Koyanagi Midori could do this part though. The Owner, Oono Takami, of the place was really insistent that her son stay in his room to decorate, so its likely she did this and set it up as a timed thing that he would need to be in his room for. As for why, it could be connected to the original Kamaitachi photo that probably was set up by her, to be photographed by the male reporter, Nakama Daigo. While they were setting up the pool and filming the running on water, the son witnessed it. He tried to chase across the water and got stuck, which could be the result of a lower center of gravity. As Takami said, she had to take her son to the hospital as a result of him falling in and could not clean the tub. It was also said that Midori was there at the same time and that was one of the only times both reporters where there at the same time. While Takami was at the hospital, Midori probably figured out the trick and entered/robbed the storage room at that point. We are also told that at that time she didn't need glasses, which adds to the fact that she is only wearing them now to pull off the storage room trick, and then we are told that a long time a go, a waitress with a kid was fired. Midori is only 26 and too young to be the waitress, so its possible that she was the kid and is here to take revenge for the situation her mother was put in.  As for the actual murder of Oono Bonzou, I still think that  Koyanagi Midori did it. Its possible that while Takami was taking her son to the hospital in the past that Midori had plenty of time to explore the layout of the building and discover the location of the scythe, disable the other lights, and possibly even find the tape that has the old man screaming while getting a massage. In the present while everyone was sitting around discussing the events that happened in the storage room, she was probably making sure the tape set up would work. When Takami's trick involving the room her son was decorating happened, she ran to the room and as a result was further back from the door than Takami and Daigo. Then the tape goes off and Takami says that the quickest way to the annex is to cross the hot springs, which she knows isn't clean. Midori instantly throws a rock into the pool to show you can't walk on water and they all try to go around another way. Then she probably doubled back and grabbed the scythe and ran across the water and jumped over the rocks on the other side because. Then walked over to the annex using the scythe to cover her tracks as explained in the chapter. That same trick can't be done with the rocks because they aren't a smooth surface and some part of the foot prints would be left if she stepped on them. She entered the annex and cut the power and walked around in the dark using the same trick with the darkened glasses to adjust her eyes to the dark. Then killed Bonzou in the dark with the scythe, and used the sharpened end of the glasses mentioned above to cut the door. Then she could rejoin the group in the dark as the entered the annex. It is possible that some of the events of the murder had to happen earlier though, it seems unlikely that she could accomplish all of those things that quickly and be done with them by the time everyone else arrived. As for Daigo, he seems like that extra suspect that is just there to have extra suspects. He is overly superstitious about the whole Kamaitachi thing and doesn't seem to even know about the pool of water trick. The owner Takami probably just ridged all of that so he could see it and get him to turn it in to his company to attract more customers.  Just my thoughts.

 

Just now:

 

In addition to all of the above, while talking at the Dctp spoiler cbox and looking stuff up, it seems that Kudzu roots contain a lot of starch and that the location in the manga is known for having good Kudzu soup. It would not be strange at all if the owner just ordered tons and tons of kudzu root. She is probably the one who set up the hot springs bath area to have such starchy water but is probably not the one who commited the crimes. The killer probably waited until the owner needed to fake another kamaitachi appearance and choose then to strike. 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

I am going to try to push out a complete solution before Monday spoilers. Check back in later today for progress updates - I'm being interrupted by IRL issues, so I can't finish this all at once like I want too.

 

Recap timeline:

Long ago - Head waitress with child fired by Gifu

One year ago - Husband of proprietor passed away

One year ago - Kouhei nearly drowned in pool.

One year ago soon after previous incident - storage shed broken into for the first time.

Photographs when?

"A few days ago" - a robber breaks into the warehouse

Attack in warehouse

Balloon popping

Immediately after - scream heard.

Murder found

The photographed Kamaitachi

The running on the water technique

Large amounts of starch used for making kudzu soup stolen from the warehouse days earlier was added to the water of the pond. Nobody noticed because the water was already an opaque white, and stories of the kamaitachi dissuaded anyone from going to the pool. Starch turns the water into a shear-thickening fluid, which means that it behaves like a liquid when under little stress, but like a solid under high shear, as might be expected from a sudden application of weight. This allows people to run on it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2XQ97XHjVw

Drowning boy

The child had difficulty swimming in the soupy "water" because it does not behave like regular water. It is rather viscous. The "kamaitachi" saved the boy and then washed his unconscious body off thoroughly afterwards so there would be no white starch residue.

Why was this done?

Practice for sure.

To attract a neutral witness on a suitably snowy day with the right weather?

To create a legend so that people will avoid the bath and thus finding out about the starch in it?

The first cut incident

 

Light bulb break method

Gum on the lightbulb probably caused it to break. There a myth that sticking a piece of gum on a lightbulb will cause it to break after a delay. The gum was found by Yamamura and the forensics. I'm not sure why the culprit didn't recover it.

 

Cut method

The culprit could find Heiji and Kogoro in the dark using the lit up objects they were carrying. Kogoro had a lit cigarette in the hand he was cut in, Heiji was wearing a watch with glow in the dark hands on his cut forearm.

Item used to cut was.... I don't know. Honestly it doesn't matter too much what it is because they didn't body search. The culprit could have tossed it anywhere the police wouldn't think to look or keep it with them out of fear. No one was wearing gloves wasn't wearing gloves, so it almost certainly has the culprit's fingerprints on it and tests positive for Heiji and Kogoro's blood. That makes it a vital clue to find.

 

The culprit

Almost certainly Midori.  In order to see the faint glow of the watch, she equipped herself with orange tinted glasses. Orange tinted goggles, or in this case glasses, are standard crime scene equipment for looking at luminol other faint greenish/blue glow in the dark substances that are used to find bloodstains. Midori was not wearing anything glow in the dark, so she probably cut herself.

 

Why was this done?

To attract police. The later murder needs to be found quickly before more snow can fall and cover the prints of the people running to the annex the long way around and make them all suspects. Even better, if the murder was confirmed by the police, the culprit will have a very solid alibi.

Other notes

Note that Midori couldn't have known Heiji would wear a glowing watch, so the glasses must have been for another purpose - to see something else glowing in the dark. Also since Heiji and Kogoro were unexpected guests, it's possible that Midori had tagged the landlady and the other reporter with glowing paint somehow and would have aimed for them.

The culprit broke into the storage area a few days earier to disable one of the lights so that once the one working lightbulb breaks, the entire shed will be dark. Second they needed to steal the starch for the kudzu soup to prepare the bath.

 

Ran's and Kazuha's balloon popping incident

 

Light bulb break method

A BB gun or water gun filled with ice cold water could both break hot lights. What Conan said about only finding 3 BB pellets suggests to me that the BB gun was used on the light because it was not enough to hit the balloons. The culprit knew about the balloons in advance and the setup because they had seen it before and had pictures. Heiji described where the shot was from (the one pane of the paper sliding door that rools up) and where the gun came from (the storage shed).

 

Balloon pop method

The ice cold water wasn't water at all, it was acetone, a solvent which can dissolve plastic (aka nail polish remover). Acetone is put in a water gun and sprayed, when it contacts the balloon surfaces the balloon plastic weakens and the balloons pop. A spray from a water gun can hit many balloons at once, which explains Ran and Kazuha's observation that the balloons popped simultaneously.

Room temperature acetone feels ice cold when it is on the skin because the heat of vaporization is so low that it evaporates extremely quickly. It also has a strong cleaning solution smell.

I assume the balloons were marked with glow in the dark paint which the tinted glasses would help the culprit see.

 

The culprit

Since it requires shooting in the dark at illuminated stuff, probably Midori again. Definitely the same person as the murder.

 

Why was this done?

To attract attention and bring everyone together so that when the man's scream happens, the culprit can have a firm alibi because they were with everyone.

The guns need to be disposed of. They couldn't have gotten far because the murder happened right after and the killer had other things to be doing. The bath would be an easy place to drop the things.

 

Murder Incident

Trying to think of if I forgot something

Killing Gifu

The culprit probably crossed the pond and killed Gifu rather than going around the long way and then came back by running across the water. I assume he was killed right before the balloon popping incident because it would wreck the alibi if the body was not extremely fresh and no footprints were visible in the snow.

Perhaps Gifu was attacked through the paper door which would explain the slash and splash and the blood on the door? If he was backlit by the light in the room, then he could be seen clearly from outside the door without trouble (and the culprit would be hard to see).

Gifu could have been killed with a weapon other than the scythe (although the scythe would work); any weapon that could be disposed of that would slash through the door would work. If another weapon was used, then the scythe would have been stabbed into the body after the culprit crossed for a third time to retrieve the audio broadcasting device before the police and detectives going around the long way could arrive at the crime scene.

Finding the body

The Gifu's scream was prerecorded from the foot massage tape mentioned in 911 page 11. That allows the culprit to have an alibi. The audio device placed in the annex that broadcasted the man's scream needs to be recovered before the police can find it, especially since the earlier incident in the storage shed was designed to attract their presence. That means the culprit needs to pretend to follow the others around the long way, but then fall behind so they can take the shortcut across the starchy bath soup to recover the device before the others arrive. After recovering the device, they then need to clean up their footprints. If they scrape clean the path clean with the scythe (as agreed upon by Heiji and Kogoro) and then wait in the dark (it has to be dark to hide, necessitating the lights be cut out by flipping the breaker) for the others to arrive they can rejoin the group and pretend they never left. The culprit then stabs the scythe into the body (that explains the discrepancy between the blood on the door where the murder took place and the current position of the body and scythe).

The culprit

The same person as the balloon shooter, probably Midori.

The motive

Gifu firing the woman with the child in the past. Maybe Gifu perved on her. Midori is probably the child from that time. Something bad probably happened to the mother and Midori wanted revenge.

Other notes

Koyanagi Midori is definitely the most suspicious here because of the way she tried to convince the detectives the foggy white pool was just normal water by throwing a rock in it.

The recording device would have to be disposed of (in the bath?), or be something easy to hide like a phone.

The specks of liquid on the rocks bt the bath were made by splashing water soup as the culprit ran across and jumped over.

[Za Fuuru 0]

hi guys I'm new! I was thinking that Midori could be the little daughter of the woman who got fired by the old man many years ago.

 

I also think that probably the old man's scream they heard was recorded from that TV show Goro was watching on the PC, that's why they were all together when they heard the scream. The victim was already dead

 

the light bulb in the childs room probably was broken with 3 bullets shot from the air gun, while the balloons popped because of some ice thrown at them

 

Midori may have used her nails or maybe some ice to cut the others. Then the ice melted and they found nothing

[moroboshi dai 11]

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3416184600

 

file 912 

[Kurara-chan 13]

heiji is being teased by ai. or was it conan? 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

  On 11/18/2014 at 4:41 AM, Kurara-chan said:

heiji is being teased by ai. or was it conan? 

Both

[MeiTanteixX 184]

I feel really sorry for heiji, but at the same time, he deserves it haha ^.^

[Za Fuuru 0]

I've seen the Chinese scans (thanks for the link), really a nice case overall. Well done!

[User 4869 100]

Wow. since when Ai knows Heiji that close to tease him?

SKYE come up with translation of the last page

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Quote

Kazuha: Heiji you idiot!
Heiji: What are you talking about?
Ran: Kazuha-chan!
Heiji: Only idiots call other people idiots!
(Thought) I mean come on…
Kudo confessed in London in front of Big Ben!
Something this important…
How can I tell her in a place like this?
Stupidhead…

And then it goes on to talk about how Haibara is now using Heiji’s confession as her ringtone LOL!

 

SOooooooo Heiji did acknowledge he has feeling for kazuha?? I thought she was just you "follower".

[Kurara-chan 13]

since he became a kind of sensei to detective boys? 

 

next week is break. 

[Za Fuuru 0]

Still no English translation for chapter 912?

[User 4869 100]

File 912 is out in English. You won't find it here due to copyright reason.

[Za Fuuru 0]

thanks I read the translation, but there are 2 things I dont understand:

1. why did she use a sickle to kill the old man. She could use the blade in her nails or anything else

2. why she cut the others in the storage room if she had to take the sickle from that storage room

[Kurara-chan 13]

in order to use of 'kamaitachi' i suppose

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

kinda reminds me of the inubushi case where the previous chapters were great but the finish wasn't as great as i hoped.

still, i give this kamaitachi case a  9.2/10

[Za Fuuru 0]

couldnt she use a normal blade to kill him? She had to steal the two guns and break the balloons just to draw police attention away to steal a sickle she didnt even need!

[Akazora 293]

All this romantic development teasing at the end of the series is getting tedious.  Because of how this case ended, we're practically guaranteed another mini-London arc involving Heiji and Kazuha in the future when the time could have been spent on something more pertinent to the plot.  I'm just hoping for some more legit info on RUM; I don't want his/her involvement to be as drawn out and as eventually disappointing as Bourbon's.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

  On 11/22/2014 at 10:23 PM, Akazora said:

All this romantic development teasing at the end of the series is getting tedious.  Because of how this case ended, we're practically guaranteed another mini-London arc involving Heiji and Kazuha in the future when the time could have been spent on something more pertinent to the plot.  I'm just hoping for some more legit info on RUM; I don't want his/her involvement to be as drawn out and as eventually disappointing as Bourbon's.

it will be another good 3 years for it to resolve