[SPOILER DISCUSSION] File 913-917 (Kawanakajima murder case)

[Barbossa8 0]

Yeah, or among the targets, meaning that the culprit could someone who's supposedly dead(connected to the past incidents) or .....the old grandma?

Well, i also thought about Akiyama being the culprit and faking his death with a prepared corpse(without a head), because his death is the only one showed without the culprit shadow...

[MeiTanteixX 184]

Well, i also thought about Akiyama being the culprit and faking his death with a prepared corpse(without a head), because his death is the only one showed without the culprit shadow...

this is what I wrote in DCTP:

''I bet it's the culprit! I have this strong feeling from all that's happening that the culprit is kan-chan's supposedly dead childhood friend!!! Takeda did indeed shoot him, but he survived and had his death report faked somehow. He killed takeda for his long awaited revenge and has a grudge against the whole former takeda division(including Kansuke) for trying to kill him that time. Kansuke started to get suspicions about his childhood friends supposed death and wanted to investigate this personal matter alone! Meanwhile, his childhood friend was planning to...

...to frame kansuke for all the murders so he dressed up in the manner in which he would be identified as kansuke and made sure the police got a fake testimony! He killed kano, the moment after kano realised the childhood friend was alive(after reading the the case files from 9 yrs ago). The targets he meant when sending a text message for the police to see ("Only three woodpeckers left") was Akiyama(who died later in the chapter), Saegusa(who's left), and then lastly, his scapegoat...his childhood friend Yamato kansuke, who's gonna take the blame for the murders to the grave(staged suicide). But following the DC cliché, yamato is gonna confront him with the resolution of his investigations (after saegusa is killed) first and then conan will join in the talk and save kansuke, who fails to convince his friend to surrender.''

[Kurara-chan 13]

there had't been case this bloody before... how the anime will handle it?

 

they probably will censor it, that last page...

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

sure there was

and they wont have a problem doing this one 

[Black Demon 466]

916 spoilers: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3514077858

 

Translation of the first pic's full text by vonikay:

Finding the clues to solving cases from an unexpected viewpoint, the brains backing up Sleeping Kogorou's deductions. That's what they say about you at Police HQ, Edogawa Conan-kun." Conan: *obviously thrown off guard* "Oh, really?"

 

Btw, it seems the 2-week-break mentioned in the recent interview will be after THIS FILE, not after the series.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

are there so many breaks cause gosho has to go to the hospital 

[Kurara-chan 13]

sure there was

and they wont have a problem doing this one 

 

aside from the first episode and suzuki vila's murder, i don't remember any decapitating...

[MeiTanteixX 184]

aside from the first episode and suzuki vila's murder, i don't remember any decapitating...

the guillotine in the vampire mansion murder case...but compared to this case, that can't even compare, since gosho decapitated someone's head right in front of our eyes

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

aside from the first episode and suzuki vila's murder, i don't remember any decapitating...

 

valid point and im not in the mood to search and remember them right now

but would he draw it if it couldn't be in the manga

[Black Demon 466]

Detailed spoilers (in Japanese) with more images: http://nagarebosihosihosi.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-188.html (Special thanks to Conan#1)

[lunar1412 0]

 

 

 Anyone know what are they talking about?

[Kurara-chan 13]

is kansuke missing? kuroda instruct them to search for information and i don't know what else...

[Black Demon 466]

916 Chinese: http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3516341481

[AwD4869 0]

I've noticed something huge about Kuroda in file 916 that tells me he could be Akai, Sera and possibly Shukiichi father. Look the wrinkle under his eye it's the same we can see under Akai eyes. It could implies that Papakai is RUM. Is the only one on the family we haven't seen so far and I think it's a possibility. But again it's only speculation http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/02/1420745642-aheberger080212.png

[Detective.Kuriboh 0]

It looks like to me that there's some people knowing Conan's games (Seeing how the Nagano Police District seem to aquire lots of help from Conan, as if depending on him in some way) and how the Sleeping Koguro actually gets the job done. This seems a bit worrisome though. That would mean if the man with the artificial eye is the 1st Division, it's possible that he'll find out that Conan is not an ordinary kid but a pretty smart one with that too since I'm feeling that who I think is RUM is one who knows how to deduce at a very well speed, however, it doesn't mean he isn't good at making false deductions on purpose. We could see this as Hyoue Kuroda and Yamato both have some kind of past that makes them know what they've done in the past. So in Hyoue's perspective he's trying to put the blame on Yamato for a good opportunity to put blame the murders that wasn't his. Hyoue however knows who actually committed the murders possibly. This also adds that Yamato must have done something before he got a scar years ago causing the reason why Hyoue believes he's the murderer.

 

 

 

... but I'm not entirely sure. I just look at the raw pictures based on how the characters act and their behaviors are amongst one another. (Then I wait till they are translated so I can be sure I'm right)

[Black Demon 466]

For the convenience of discussion, I will summarize some of the important points in this file until full translation comes out. I cannot provide any detailed translation of the dialogues for now. Also note that this is derived from the Chinese translation, not the Raw, so expect some minor errors.

 

Page 1 ~ 8 (Crime scene)

• After finding Akiyama's phone, they saw a mail sent at 5:32 PM. The content is: "I've found the first victim Takeda's phone inside a certain person's belongings. I'm now sending this mail to you from that phone. Since this person is a police officer, you need to find an excuse and come to that small hut in Saijosan [Note: the mountain's name]. I'll explain in details there. - Yamato Kansuke"
• Kansuke seems to have turned off his phone so he's out contact.
• Conan suggests that the mail might not have been sent by Kansuke because it wasn't his own phone, and he wouldn't be stupid enough to leave an incriminating evidence there. Kuroda counters this (after making suspicious comments as spoilered earlier) by saying that he probably didn't have enough time to get rid of it. He also shows that the victim had Kansuke's number black-listed, possibly in order to prevent him from finding the phone.
• On the rope that was used to hang Kano, Kansuke's fingerprints were found on both the upper part AND the part surrounding the victim's neck, which Koumei said hadn't been touched by anyone until the forensics arrived. Kuroda orders Kansuke's arrest as the prime suspect for the serial murder.
• Kuroda tells them to retreat to the police station because Kansuke wouldn't stay around the mountain area after they came. Akiyama's body was left there for the moment because it's dark and the ground's muddy after the rain.
• Kuroda tells Saegusa to return in his car because there won't be enough room inside Koumei's due to the wheel at the backseat, while grinning suspiciously.

Page 9 ~ 14 (Inside Koumei's car)
 

• Koumei reveals that there has been a similar hanging case in the past. The parents of the bank robbery suspect [mentioned in the backstory] committed suicide by hanging themselves. After Kansuke arrived at the scene, he said that they could possibly still be saved, climbed up a chair and untied the rope. However, unlike the current case, the rope was tied to the roof beam instead.
• The rope hanging Kano was tied with two loops [see image], Kansuke held the upper loop to put the body down [see 915 images].
• Conan asks the positions of everyone after that. [see 915 images for clearer views]
• Conan asks if there was anything that could distract everyone's attentions, Koumei tells him about the message. [see 915]
• There are similarities between the police officers' names and the names of the generals that died during the fourth battle of Kawanakajima: Takeda Shigeru = Takeda Nobushige; Kano Shouji = Hajikano Tadatsugu; Akyama Shinsuke (former surname Aburakawa) = Aburakawa Nobuyoshi; Saegusa Mamoru = Saegusa Morinao; Yamato Kansuke = Yamamoto Kansuke. So Saegusa Mamoru and Kansuke are most likely the remaining targets.
• Koumei tells the story about the bank robbery: The suspect was about to surrender, however, Takeda's group acted rashly, which enraged the suspect and he began shooting. Takeda had no choice but to kill him. Yamato was mad at this and asked Takeda if he thought that it was alright for him to kill the suspect since he was a police officer.
• Apparently the suspect's phone had been lost. Before he was killed, he was speaking with someone on the phone: "If I'm caught then you will be done too. The origin of the gun and X will be exposed..."
• On Yui's phone, Kano was saved on Ta-gyou. This is because his original surname was Tsuchiya (土屋), but was changed after his marriage. He's currently living separately with his wife.　

Page 15 ~ 16 (Police station)
 

• Kansuke's still out of contact, but this time his phone is busy instead.
• Saegusa reports that someone has spotted a person resembling Kansuke, and is going to confirm that, but doesn't have a car. Kuroda orders Koumei to lend his car to him.
• Kansuke sends Koumei a message: "The events of the past are like a current." [This is a literal translation, it seems to be a poetry of some kind.]

[Guest]

just for reference I am going to plop this down here as well

 

here is a lay out of the continuity of phone calls and text messages from this case

Note: The flip phone that Komei pulled from Kano's body is not the same as the smart phone 

that we see him holding as he is about to be confronted by the person with the rope

Another interesting fact is that Komei used to have a flip phone back in the Red Wall case

but since then has gotten a smart phone. He is the only one of the Nagano trio to upgrade.

 

[Takeda's body is discovered]

At headquarters Yamato receives a text from unknown sender and leaves police HQ

(Yamato is shown holding a flip phone)

Supposedly either Saegusa or Akiyama sent a text to Yamato to tell him Kano had gone home

Supposedly Kano calls Yamato 10 times with no answer

Kano's exact words while typing on his phone are "I need to hurry and relay this information to everyone"

(Kano is shown holding a smart phone)

[Kano dies] - a text message from Bishamonten is sent from Kano's phone to Yamato

Yamato calls Komei because he can't get in contact with Kano

(Komei is shown holding a smart phone)

 

[Kano's body is discovered]

Yamato reads out the text he received from Kano's phone

(Yamato still has his flip phone)

A cell phone is found on Kano's body with a text from Takeda's phone

(Komei holds the phone up and it is a flip phone)

Back at police HQ Akiyama receives a text from an unknown number and leaves

(Akiyama is shown holding a smart phone)

Saegusa calls Komei in a panic because he thinks Akiyama is in danger

(Saegusa is shown holding a flip phone)

 

[Akiyama dies in front of witnesses]

Uehara uses her phone to call Akiyama's phone to find it

(Uehara is shown holding a flip phone)

Akiyama's phone is discovered (looks the same as the one he was holding earlier)

They find a text on Akiyama's phone that says it is from Yamato

Yamato's number was supposedly black listed

In the car Uehara shows Conan her phone with names in it

Komei receives an odd text that says it is from Yamato

 

 

Takeda - Unknown phone

Yamato - Flip phone

Komei - Smart phone(new), Flip phone(old)

Uehara - Flip phone

Saegusa - Flip phone

Akiyama - Smart phone

Kano - Smart phone(alive), Flip phone (dead)

Kuroda - Unknown phone

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Here is what I think is going on, but take it with a grain of salt because I don't have the full evidence organized to back this yet. I am only going to cover up to 915 because I haven’t paid much attention to the spoilers.

Roughly, Kuroda Hyoue is the murderer, but he isn't the actual Kuroda Hyoue. Kuroda Hyoue who got in an accident 10 years ago and put into a coma is currently dead (maybe). The real Kuroda Hyoue's body was swapped with that of the either Kansuke's childhood friend or the bank robber for reasons I don't know yet by someone I am not sure of but strongly suspect is Takeda based on the conversation with the murderer at the beginning of 913.

As for evidence Kuroda Hyoue is the murderer:
• Kuroda Hyoue is the best manipulation position. He orders the other police around, and they inform him of his whereabouts. I am pretty sure being able to make sure the suspects are in the right place at the right time is necessary for these murders to work. (Will work out the details of this later) He also has first access to the crime scene.
• It seems strange how subdued the reaction is at the station to the murdered officers. When a police officer was suspect at the Tokyo met, it was tense from the bottom to the top of the ranks. Has Kuroda being keeping his superiors abreast of the situation?
• Kuroda Hyoue seems to be letting Kansuke run around freely while suspecting him.
• I am still a little fuzzy on the timeline, but I don't think he has a firm alibi for any of the crimes.

I don't have any direct evidence that Kuroda Hyoue is one of the suspects from the past, but it's a pretty strong hunch based on the information we were given. The swap is possible because Hyoue's face was bandaged so that people and even the nurses weren't really clear what he looked like. It was noted that he seems really different, he also looks different, and the memory loss gives him an excuse to cover for knowledge inconstancies. It was also a point that the coroner said the two dead suspects were both criminals. The rule of no useless information seems to be standard for a lot of Gosho cases – why were we given so much info about Kuroda's hospital stay situation and how much he has changed?

The rope used to hang Kano both feels weird and looks weird according to both Kansuke and Akiyama. It definitely looks weird because it was made of multiple short segments tied into loops (odd for someone doing a hanging not to use a single stretch), but that doesn’t explain the feels weird part. It occurs to me the rope might have been cut from the stretchy rope used for rehabilitating legs and knees – something Kansuke would have, use, and have his fingerprints all over. That would also explain the loops because rehabilitation ropes for legs are only so long, so you will need several segments. If Kansuke's rehabilitation ropes went missing, it would explain why he wasn't practicing that morning at the scene of the crime.

Also a few other notes:

Morofushi is pretending to be unfriendly with Kansuke and act like he is not Kansuke's childhood friend. I suspect this is so that so he can be trusted by Kuroda and the other suspects.

I suspect the Woodpecker gang is a group of police which cooperates with thieves in exchange for bribes. They tip off gangs to upcoming investigations or help them commit crimes. I suspect the robber group mentioned earlier in this case was tipped off to the upcoming raid on their safehouse. Also I believe the woodpeckers are Akiyama, Saegusa, Kano, Takeda, and possibly the original Kuroda Hyoue, and the bank robber. The culprit who says there are three woodpeckers left probably counts Kansuke and Saegusa, but who is the last one? It might be Kuroda Hyoue.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

Here is what I think is going on, but take it with a grain of salt because I don't have the full evidence organized to back this yet. I am only going to cover up to 915 because I haven’t paid much attention to the spoilers.

Roughly, Kuroda Hyoue is the murderer, but he isn't the actual Kuroda Hyoue. Kuroda Hyoue who got in an accident 10 years ago and put into a coma is currently dead (maybe). The real Kuroda Hyoue's body was swapped with that of the either Kansuke's childhood friend or the bank robber for reasons I don't know yet by someone I am not sure of but strongly suspect is Takeda based on the conversation with the murderer at the beginning of 913.

As for evidence Kuroda Hyoue is the murderer:

• Kuroda Hyoue is the best manipulation position. He orders the other police around, and they inform him of his whereabouts. I am pretty sure being able to make sure the suspects are in the right place at the right time is necessary for these murders to work. (Will work out the details of this later) He also has first access to the crime scene.

• It seems strange how subdued the reaction is at the station to the murdered officers. When a police officer was suspect at the Tokyo met, it was tense from the bottom to the top of the ranks. Has Kuroda being keeping his superiors abreast of the situation?

• Kuroda Hyoue seems to be letting Kansuke run around freely while suspecting him.

• I am still a little fuzzy on the timeline, but I don't think he has a firm alibi for any of the crimes.

I don't have any direct evidence that Kuroda Hyoue is one of the suspects from the past, but it's a pretty strong hunch based on the information we were given. The swap is possible because Hyoue's face was bandaged so that people and even the nurses weren't really clear what he looked like. It was noted that he seems really different, he also looks different, and the memory loss gives him an excuse to cover for knowledge inconstancies. It was also a point that the coroner said the two dead suspects were both criminals. The rule of no useless information seems to be standard for a lot of Gosho cases – why were we given so much info about Kuroda's hospital stay situation and how much he has changed?

The rope used to hang Kano both feels weird and looks weird according to both Kansuke and Akiyama. It definitely looks weird because it was made of multiple short segments tied into loops (odd for someone doing a hanging not to use a single stretch), but that doesn’t explain the feels weird part. It occurs to me the rope might have been cut from the stretchy rope used for rehabilitating legs and knees – something Kansuke would have, use, and have his fingerprints all over. That would also explain the loops because rehabilitation ropes for legs are only so long, so you will need several segments. If Kansuke's rehabilitation ropes went missing, it would explain why he wasn't practicing that morning at the scene of the crime.

Also a few other notes:

Morofushi is pretending to be unfriendly with Kansuke and act like he is not Kansuke's childhood friend. I suspect this is so that so he can be trusted by Kuroda and the other suspects.

I suspect the Woodpecker gang is a group of police which cooperates with thieves in exchange for bribes. They tip off gangs to upcoming investigations or help them commit crimes. I suspect the robber group mentioned earlier in this case was tipped off to the upcoming raid on their safehouse. Also I believe the woodpeckers are Akiyama, Saegusa, Kano, Takeda, and possibly the original Kuroda Hyoue, and the bank robber. The culprit who says there are three woodpeckers left probably counts Kansuke and Saegusa, but who is the last one? It might be Kuroda Hyoue.

i think the information about kuroda's coma is meant for whole different story.... also, they said three woodpecker's left after kano's hanging, the one that died afterwards was akiyama, so only two left, which would mean saegusa and kansuke 

 

EDIT: I think you're gonna have few changes in your analysis after reading the next chapter

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

i think the information about kuroda's coma is meant for whole different story.... also, they said three woodpecker's left after kano's hanging, the one that died afterwards was akiyama, so only two left, which would mean saegusa and kansuke 

 

EDIT: I think you're gonna have few changes in your analysis after reading the next chapter

Yeah, you are right about the three woodpeckers thing. I'll edit that. I briefly looked at the spoilers for the next chapter, and I don't see any obvious conflicts with Hyoue being the culprit (but he's really one of the past suspects). The bank robber looks more likely than the childhood friend as the swap candidate I think. Am I missing something that you see?

[MeiTanteixX 184]

Yeah, you are right about the three woodpeckers thing. I'll edit that. I briefly looked at the spoilers for the next chapter, and I don't see any obvious conflicts with Hyoue being the culprit (but he's really one of the past suspects). The bank robber looks more likely than the childho ulterior motivesod friend as the swap candidate I think. Am I missing something that you see?

don't worry, I wasn't trying to say that it was conflicting your idea, but rather opens up a LOT of possibilities...

...for example, don't you find odd that Hyoue's role as a former member of the NPA has taken up special importance in the story? The way his curiosity of conan made him taunt him to the extent of even mentioning ''rumors'' in the NPA(correct me if NPA was a false translation)? Isn't taking a lie to a risky zone by acting to much like someone he actually isn't(original kuroda that is)? And the fact that was taunting conan was unusual for a one-case-only character? and I'd say, if he turns out to be the criminal behind this case, the robber would've had to be the smartest culprit so far, the way he has schemed everything, according to your idea(A lot better than makoto who also changed his face with ulterior motives....point is, kuroda seems to be forshadowed pretty well if we change our view of him from a culprit, to main-plot character. What do you think of that possibilty, him becoming a reappearing character? do you really believe that gosho is just pulling a fast one on us?

[Guest]

 Am I missing something that you see?

 

Why do you think that Kano's phone, a smart phone, is not found at the time his body is discovered, and why was there a flip phone in its place?

 

Why do you think that Akiyama touches the rope when everyone else is distracted by the text message to the phone that was on Kano's body?

 

In the moments before we see Akiyama plunge over the cliff, why did he call out that they need to find his cell phone, rather than call out that "it was Yamato" or something if he and everyone else are supposed to think that Yamato is the culprit based on the message?

 

Does Akiyama's body decapitation look a little cleanly severed to you? The rope around his neck may be thin, but its certainly not piano wire, I dont think it would look that cleanly severed. Also the decapitation in chapter 001 shows a lot of blood shooting out and there is almost none on Akiyama's clothes.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

...for example, don't you find odd that Hyoue's role as a former member of the NPA has taken up special importance in the story? The way his curiosity of conan made him taunt him to the extent of even mentioning ''rumors'' in the NPA(correct me if NPA was a false translation)?

I haven't seen anything about Kuroda and the NPA quoted in Black Demon's spoilers and I checked the cbox archives and I didn't see anything there either about it. I don't really know what to say about that.

 

Isn't taking a lie to a risky zone by acting to much like someone he actually isn't(original kuroda that is)? And the fact that was taunting conan was unusual for a one-case-only character? and I'd say, if he turns out to be the criminal behind this case, the robber would've had to be the smartest culprit so far, the way he has schemed everything, according to your idea(A lot better than makoto who also changed his face with ulterior motives....point is, kuroda seems to be forshadowed pretty well if we change our view of him from a culprit, to main-plot character. What do you think of that possibilty, him becoming a reappearing character? do you really believe that gosho is just pulling a fast one on us?

I don't think fake-Kuroda actually changed his face. I suspect that is just his regular face (which was similar to Kuroda's from the start), and everyone thinks he is messed up from the accident. The real mastermind would have been whoever thought of replacing Kuroda. Then again, we already have a bad police organization "Woodpecker" which shows someone in the force has some masterminding capability.

If someone is impersonating Kuroda, they would have to do a lot of research to make sure they get Kuroda somewhat right. That could probably be covered up by claiming they forgot stuff and have to relearn it for the recovery process. "Kuroda" might run across reports of Conan from the red wall and fuu rin kaa zan case.

I don't want to make too many judgements until I have the file translated in front of me.

 

Why do you think that Kano's phone, a smart phone, is not found at the time his body is discovered, and why was there a flip phone in its place?

Taken by culprit for the next step of his plan presumably. I haven't really delved into the issue much.

 

Why do you think that Akiyama touches the rope when everyone else is distracted by the text message to the phone that was on Kano's body?

Is he? It didn't look like direct contact to me in that panel in 915 pg 5. Then again I guess he must have touched some part of it at some point since he said it felt odd.

 

In the moments before we see Akiyama plunge over the cliff, why did he call out that they need to find his cell phone, rather than call out that "it was Yamato" or something if he and everyone else are supposed to think that Yamato is the culprit based on the message?

Not sure yet. Maybe Akiyama's cellphone was replaced or altered in some way. Maybe Akiyama didn't know the true culprit. I can't really hypothesize at this point without more info.

 

Does Akiyama's body decapitation look a little cleanly severed to you? The rope around his neck may be thin, but its certainly not piano wire, I dont think it would look that cleanly severed. Also the decapitation in chapter 001 shows a lot of blood shooting out and there is almost none on Akiyama's clothes.

Gosho doesn't usually go in for excess gore. Again, I can't really comment on the rope or the beheading of Akiyama until I can read some of the detective's comments in 916.

What I am confused about is why Akiyama was killed while conscious. Was it necessary for him to be awake?

[MeiTanteixX 184]

What I am confused about is why Akiyama was killed while conscious. Was it necessary for him to be awake?

Could be possible, or maybe something woke him up,...either way, like U said, he could have just ratted yamato out, or kuroda for that matter, unless either they are not the culprit or he simply didn't see the culprit! but I find it more logical if it were the childhood friend! Not only will it explain Kano's revelation of the case from 9 yrs, moments before he dies, but also why yamato specifically is being centered in this case!

[Guest]

I haven't seen anything about Kuroda and the NPA quoted in Black Demon's spoilers and I checked the cbox archives and I didn't see anything there either about it. I don't really know what to say about that.

 

 

Chapter 913 page 8

Uehara : How rude! Even the chief says it tastes better than before!

Koumei : That was the former chief of first division right? ....  I heard the new chief likes Black Tea

Uehara : If I recall correctly he was transferred from the National Police Agency

Yamato : I can't believe that a guy with a face like that drinks Black tea.

 

 

apparently it is also mentioned in chapter 916 when Kuroda confronts Conan about being the brains behind Sleeping Kogoro

Kuroda : 意外な着眼点で、事件解決の糸口を見つけ推理をバックアップする…

眠りの小五郎の知恵袋…警察庁ではそう噂されていたよ。江戸川コナン君…

 

where 警察庁 means National Police Agency.