Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

As I've been reading these forums, as well as the ones on the DCTP, on which I've posted this poll, as well, I've gotten a sense of cynicism/disappointment/frustration when it comes to the past couple years of Detective Conan stories—essentially, I see that the Bourbon arc isn't too well liked. There are probably some who think that Detective Conan has been slipping in quality since the Vermouth arc climax.

 

I am interested in when you think Detective Conan began to slip in quality, if at all—I've enjoyed the whole story, but, when it comes to fiction, I can be quite forgiving—and why, as well as to what degree. I would prefer detailed explanations as to why, but if you feel you'd be repeating yourself and don't want to do so, then either provide a link to a prior detailed explanation, or insist that I look it up, myself.

 

EDIT (1/5/17):

I will now be including the Rum arc, since we're nearly 100 Files into it. It and any other arc is fair game.

 

Users may select two options if they so desire, in case a user thinks that there was more than one lapse in quality. Finally, users can change their vote at any time, in case reflection/discussion changes a user's mind.

 

Feel free to ask any questions if you're confused by the poll or the question.

 

EDIT (1/5/17):

Please see my 1/5/17 post for an update to the poll.

 

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

I have first watched the anime then i found out about the manga somewhere around the Inubushi Castle case. 

I would say that from Episode 1-345 is the best for me, it had a lot of great/good gosho  and AO cases. There have been some misses here and there but this is my favorite "part" of DC.

 

After 345 till the intro of Kir 425 i would have to say that there are some great/good cases here, granted some are torture to watch, and dont have much complain here. I almost forgot to say that in this part of DC Kid started to suck

 

From 426-504 cases were like...good, then bad, then good, then bad

If you were to take the best out of the AO and skip the bad  ones then its a great story, then again Gosho had his fair share of bad to me in this one. I liked eisukes intro in this part, and thought there was not enough of him. The Clash series is Phenomenal.

 

From 505-666 it was, some are good some are that i don't care for and why even make them, the AOs became a drag much like goshos cases. Granted there are the Shiragami case, the guardian of time, inubushi castle, red  wall and the mansion of death exceptions. I did not like holmes revelation. This part was bad.

 

666-766+manga

So many bad filler cases, so much bad AOs, Amuro didn't impress me, later i decided that Sera was pointless in this arc.

I love train cases, add the BO to it and i should have one of my fave cases ever...yet i was somewhat disappointed.

THere are a few nice ones like kogoro in the bar and makoto vs kid and heiji and the vampire mansion, and i love  Dancing Demon at the Noh Mask Mansion.

The way bourbon arc ended was a disappointment. Spying and having a car chase while watching an award show...no

After that showdown there have been some interesting case in the manga by gosho 

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

If I recall correctly, you said at some point that you're going to leave in 3 years, unless DC ends by then–do you mean this website, or the DC fandom, and then come back, years later, to see how it ended?

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

do i know you from somewhere

anyway, im seriously considering to quit dc cause its going nowhere fast then come back when it ends...my opinion

but im not leaving dcw anytime soon 

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

No–I've been reading these forums and the ones over at DCTP for a while, but I didn't start posting on them 'til recently.

[Kirsch 95]

At only 410-ish episodes, I'm not the best person to ask. However, I can say that the fillers are torturous. I only watch the anime, so going AO after AO is extremely discouraging.

Story-wise, it's still going strong for me. The first 100 episodes were great, the second hundred had some of the best arcs *cough*DesperateRevival*coughcough*, and the third hundred had Vermouth.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

you are in a world of hurt later on with the AOs

[Kirsch 95]

you are in a world of hurt later on with the AOs

Which is why I practically gave up. I can't bring myself to jump episodes, and these AOs ;A;

I'm doing my best reading the spoilers though. They are written beautifully xD

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

even so

you have to continue watching, maybe you will find something you like 

[Kenzi 146]

Everything that happened after the Kir arc was completely blown off to the side, and a few episodes later, it even felt like it never existed.

There was absolutely zero elaboration on the happenings of Kir after the arc ended, which really made the entire arc feel like a huge waste of time.

 

I would have expected such a dramatic arc to be referenced at least somewhat regularly other than with the musings of Scar Akai. At least it didn't turn out as anti-climactic as the Bourbon arc. As of right now, the Bourbon arc easily takes the cake was the worst arc in the series. That's not to say that the Kir arc was bad though. It most certainly was a good arc--what bothers me was its continual decreasing relevance after it ended.

 

tl;dr, DC took a turn for the worse after the Kir arc. 

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

I think you nailed it right there, with the kir arc.
+1
If you tie in the phone-melody-email arc with the kir arc, leaving out the AOs, then that arc could be as great if not better then the Conan-Ai-Vermouth arc

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

So what was needed in the Bourbon arc was a stronger connection to the events of the Kir arc, and the cutting of many cases—524-557, 562, 565-577, 582-609, 614-630, 633-645, 648-666, 669-698, 705-711, 718-766, in particular? (I excluded Detective Boys Vs Robber Group and The Crisis Beckoned by the Red Omen, unless you'd rather have them not there, either–in any case, you want those 211 episodes removed)

Also, some kind of fight between Akai and Amuro? What type of confrontation did you have in mind?

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

Vermouth arc had connections to the Kir arc, would have made sense that Kir had some connection to the Bourbon arc as well.

If it had i don't think that we would have the cases we had back then, cause he would have to change something in order to fit. Also, bad AOs kill the mood for watching DC. There have been a lot of those going back to after the Vermouth arc. If you want my score of those episodes then 

The Blue Spark of Hate 8
A Present from the True Culprit 2
The Malice Hidden Behind the Masque 8
Might Over Mystery 8
The Truth Behind the Urban Legend 6
The Scar that Evokes the Past 8
The Secret of the Vanished Masterpiece 1
Kaitou Kid vs. the Strongest Safe 1
A Fool's Inheritance 1
The Day Kogoro Mouri Ceased Being a Detective 9
Ikkaku Rock's Disappearing Fish 6-7
The Hand That Plays in Dissonance 6-7
The Witch Enshrouded by Fog 4-5
Two Days with the Culprit 8-9
The Revolving Sushi Mystery 6-7
The Culprit is Genta's Dad 5
The Interrogation Room 2
Stork Mystery Tour 7-8
Intersection of Fear 2-3
A Dangerous Party of Two 8
The Mansion of Death and the Red Wall 10
Rainbow Color Kidnapping 2-3
Detective Boys vs. Robber Group 8
The Eyewitness Who Did Not See 6-7
The Partner is Santa-san 1
Murderous Intent Raining on an Outdoor Spa 7-8
Inspector Shiratori, Memories of the Cherry Blossom 4
The Crime with Zero Possibility to be Proven 3-4
Battle of the Haunted Warehouse's Treasure 5-6
The Whereabouts of the Embarrassing Charm 7
The Alibi of the Black Dress 9
The Truth Lit Up By the Fireflies 1
The Crisis Beckoned by the Red Omen 9-10
The Night the Zombie Died 4
Kobayashi-sensei's Love 5
The Kirin's Horn That Vanished into the Dark 5
The Trap of the Rooftop Farm 2
The Worst Birthday 8-9
The House with the Aquarium 1
The Detective Memoir of Monkey and Rake 3
The Seven Wonders of the Hiroshima Miyajima Tour 6-7
The Alibi of the Fall 4
The Scenario of the Steaming Locked Room 4
A Friend of Justice 1
The Dream the Kappa Saw 2
The Devil Hidden in the Tennis Court 2
The Séance's Double Locked Room Mystery Case 9
Courtroom Confrontation IV: Juror Sumiko Kobayashi 6
White Day of Betrayal 9
The Victim is Shinichi Kudo 8
Inubushi Castle, The Ablazed Demon Dog 8-9
The Secret Played by the Diary 7
Holmes' Revelation 5
Emergency Situation 252 2
A Video Letter of First Love 4
The Screaming Operation Room 3
Conan & Kid's Battle For Ryoma's Treasure 7
The Promo Video Shooting Case 7-8
What the Flower Clock Knew 1
The Guardian of Time's Sword 8-9
The Super Narrow Shop Crime Scene 1
Beware of Dieting 1
The Most Useful School in the World Case 8
Solving Mysteries at the Red Leaf Palace 8
The Memory Trip of the Eight Sketches 3-4
Grabbing Karuta Cards in Dire Straits 1
Ramen So Good, It's to Die For 8
Deduction Showdown at the Haunted Hotel 8
The Case of the Besieged Detective Agency 6-7
Conan vs. Heiji, Deduction Battle Between the Detectives of the East and West 10
The Design of Poison and Mirage 10
The Professor's Video Site 1
The Hot Chocolate Trap 1
Co-Investigating with a First Love 2
Kogoro-san is a Good Man 6
Chase the Miyama Stag Beetle 1
The Great Dog Coeur's Triumph 2 1
The Suspicious Initial K 5
The Rainy Night Menace 2
Wedding Eve 8
The Dark Tower's Hidden Treasure 6
Detectives' Nocturne 5-6
Won't Forgive Even One Millimeter 1
The Footprintless Beach 2
Nagasaki Mystery Theatre 5-6
Cactus Capriccio 1
The Life-Threatening Broadcast of Love 8
Froth, Steam, and Smoke 4
A Car Carrying a Time Bomb 1
The Unsolvable Ice Trap 3
Detective Takagi Finds 30 Million Yen 2
The Client's Message 1
Yusaku Kudo's Cold Case 7
The Evening Cherry Blossom Viewing Route on Sumida River 4
The Missing Sweets in the Old Shop 1
The Roses in the Vineyard 2
The Flowerbed Vandal's Scheme 1
The Window at the Girls' School 1
Unbelievable! The Case of the Crashed UFO 1
The Shadow Approaching Haibara's Secret 6-7
The Jet-Black Mystery Train 8
Conan in a Locked Room 2-3
The Framed Great Detective 1
The Man Who Fell Slowly 1
An Unconfirmed Shocking Case 4
Everyone Saw 5
Heiji Hattori and the Vampire Mansion 10
Dancing Demon at the Noh Mask Mansion 9-10
The Devil's Circuit 2
A Dispute Over a Platinum Ticket 1
Fire and Water Mystery Tour 3
Sweet and Cold Delivery Service 1
Kaitou Kid and the Blush Mermaid 2
A Happy E-mail Brings Sadness 1
The Treasure Chest Filled With Fruits 3
The Diamond, the Painting, and the Great Actress 3-4
The Figure That Was Too Good 2
The Ex-Boyfriend Living Next to a Crime Scene 7
The Wedding Reception and the Two Gunshots 2-3
Jodie's Memories and the Cherry Blossom Viewing Trap 3
The Coded Invitation 1
The Secret of the Statue of Kogoro Mouri 4-5
The Suspicious Walking Path 1
Kogoro in the Bar 9
Bathroom Where Ran Collapsed As Well 7-8
Promise with a J-Leaguer 1
Two Coincidental Successes 2
The Suspect is Makoto Kyogoku 4
Kaitou Kid VS Makoto Kyogoku 8
Metropolitan Police Detective Love Story 9 2
The Man Betrayed by the Sea 1
The Beckoning Calico Cat Case 5
The Tragedy of the Red Woman 5
The Comedian Who Turned Himself In 3
The Unexpected Result of a Romance Novel 3
Kaga Hyakumangoku Mystery Tour 1
Conan and Heiji, Code of Love 3
Teimuzu River Kite Flying Case 1

[75aichan 49]

I think DC became worse after the Vermouth Arc.all my favorite cases (and the BO plot cases) were at that time.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

Vermouth arc had connections to the Kir arc, would have made sense that Kir had some connection to the Bourbon arc as well.

If it had i don't think that we would have the cases we had back then, cause he would have to change something in order to fit. Also, bad AOs kill the mood for watching DC. There have been a lot of those going back to after the Vermouth arc. If you want my score of those episodes then 

The Blue Spark of Hate 8

A Present from the True Culprit 2

The Malice Hidden Behind the Masque 8

Might Over Mystery 8

The Truth Behind the Urban Legend 6

The Scar that Evokes the Past 8

The Secret of the Vanished Masterpiece 1

Kaitou Kid vs. the Strongest Safe 1

A Fool's Inheritance 1

The Day Kogoro Mouri Ceased Being a Detective 9

Ikkaku Rock's Disappearing Fish 6-7

The Hand That Plays in Dissonance 6-7

The Witch Enshrouded by Fog 4-5

Two Days with the Culprit 8-9

The Revolving Sushi Mystery 6-7

The Culprit is Genta's Dad 5

The Interrogation Room 2

Stork Mystery Tour 7-8

Intersection of Fear 2-3

A Dangerous Party of Two 8

The Mansion of Death and the Red Wall 10

Rainbow Color Kidnapping 2-3

Detective Boys vs. Robber Group 8

The Eyewitness Who Did Not See 6-7

The Partner is Santa-san 1

Murderous Intent Raining on an Outdoor Spa 7-8

Inspector Shiratori, Memories of the Cherry Blossom 4

The Crime with Zero Possibility to be Proven 3-4

Battle of the Haunted Warehouse's Treasure 5-6

The Whereabouts of the Embarrassing Charm 7

The Alibi of the Black Dress 9

The Truth Lit Up By the Fireflies 1

The Crisis Beckoned by the Red Omen 9-10

The Night the Zombie Died 4

Kobayashi-sensei's Love 5

The Kirin's Horn That Vanished into the Dark 5

The Trap of the Rooftop Farm 2

The Worst Birthday 8-9

The House with the Aquarium 1

The Detective Memoir of Monkey and Rake 3

The Seven Wonders of the Hiroshima Miyajima Tour 6-7

The Alibi of the Fall 4

The Scenario of the Steaming Locked Room 4

A Friend of Justice 1

The Dream the Kappa Saw 2

The Devil Hidden in the Tennis Court 2

The Séance's Double Locked Room Mystery Case 9

Courtroom Confrontation IV: Juror Sumiko Kobayashi 6

White Day of Betrayal 9

The Victim is Shinichi Kudo 8

Inubushi Castle, The Ablazed Demon Dog 8-9

The Secret Played by the Diary 7

Holmes' Revelation 5

Emergency Situation 252 2

A Video Letter of First Love 4

The Screaming Operation Room 3

Conan & Kid's Battle For Ryoma's Treasure 7

The Promo Video Shooting Case 7-8

What the Flower Clock Knew 1

The Guardian of Time's Sword 8-9

The Super Narrow Shop Crime Scene 1

Beware of Dieting 1

The Most Useful School in the World Case 8

Solving Mysteries at the Red Leaf Palace 8

The Memory Trip of the Eight Sketches 3-4

Grabbing Karuta Cards in Dire Straits 1

Ramen So Good, It's to Die For 8

Deduction Showdown at the Haunted Hotel 8

The Case of the Besieged Detective Agency 6-7

Conan vs. Heiji, Deduction Battle Between the Detectives of the East and West 10

The Design of Poison and Mirage 10

The Professor's Video Site 1

The Hot Chocolate Trap 1

Co-Investigating with a First Love 2

Kogoro-san is a Good Man 6

Chase the Miyama Stag Beetle 1

The Great Dog Coeur's Triumph 2 1

The Suspicious Initial K 5

The Rainy Night Menace 2

Wedding Eve 8

The Dark Tower's Hidden Treasure 6

Detectives' Nocturne 5-6

Won't Forgive Even One Millimeter 1

The Footprintless Beach 2

Nagasaki Mystery Theatre 5-6

Cactus Capriccio 1

The Life-Threatening Broadcast of Love 8

Froth, Steam, and Smoke 4

A Car Carrying a Time Bomb 1

The Unsolvable Ice Trap 3

Detective Takagi Finds 30 Million Yen 2

The Client's Message 1

Yusaku Kudo's Cold Case 7

The Evening Cherry Blossom Viewing Route on Sumida River 4

The Missing Sweets in the Old Shop 1

The Roses in the Vineyard 2

The Flowerbed Vandal's Scheme 1

The Window at the Girls' School 1

Unbelievable! The Case of the Crashed UFO 1

The Shadow Approaching Haibara's Secret 6-7

The Jet-Black Mystery Train 8

Conan in a Locked Room 2-3

The Framed Great Detective 1

The Man Who Fell Slowly 1

An Unconfirmed Shocking Case 4

Everyone Saw 5

Heiji Hattori and the Vampire Mansion 10

Dancing Demon at the Noh Mask Mansion 9-10

The Devil's Circuit 2

A Dispute Over a Platinum Ticket 1

Fire and Water Mystery Tour 3

Sweet and Cold Delivery Service 1

Kaitou Kid and the Blush Mermaid 2

A Happy E-mail Brings Sadness 1

The Treasure Chest Filled With Fruits 3

The Diamond, the Painting, and the Great Actress 3-4

The Figure That Was Too Good 2

The Ex-Boyfriend Living Next to a Crime Scene 7

The Wedding Reception and the Two Gunshots 2-3

Jodie's Memories and the Cherry Blossom Viewing Trap 3

The Coded Invitation 1

The Secret of the Statue of Kogoro Mouri 4-5

The Suspicious Walking Path 1

Kogoro in the Bar 9

Bathroom Where Ran Collapsed As Well 7-8

Promise with a J-Leaguer 1

Two Coincidental Successes 2

The Suspect is Makoto Kyogoku 4

Kaitou Kid VS Makoto Kyogoku 8

Metropolitan Police Detective Love Story 9 2

The Man Betrayed by the Sea 1

The Beckoning Calico Cat Case 5

The Tragedy of the Red Woman 5

The Comedian Who Turned Himself In 3

The Unexpected Result of a Romance Novel 3

Kaga Hyakumangoku Mystery Tour 1

Conan and Heiji, Code of Love 3

Teimuzu River Kite Flying Case 1

 

Thanks for this–I hope I'm not imposing or anything.

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

Not at all. I do love leting my frustrations out regarding the anime/manga.

This thread is great.

I love shows that have begining, midle, end.

With DC im not sure where i am

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

This thread is great.

 

Coming from a veteran like you, it's an honor.

 

Not at all. I do love leting my frustrations out regarding the anime/manga.

I love shows that have begining, midle, end.

With DC im not sure where i am

 

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

On 2/13/2015 at 1:12 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Coming from a veteran like you, it's an honor.

You make me blush 

the general section has gotten slow or romance filled

 

On 2/13/2015 at 1:12 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

I think that gosho did the wrong thing by making DC this long, filled with unnecessary stuff.

I find Vermouth interesting, and the only thing we got is that she=chris=sharon, and does not age...so to say.

THere is a lot more that has to be revealed about her and jet nothing.

It would seem that Sera and Eisuke are in the same situation( story ), the only diff is that sera has a bigger family.The only reason i have Eisuke above sera as a favorite character is because he is funny, Sera on the other hand is pointless like him. They came they saw they left (one did anyway)

Whats up with the computer program and drug, we only get a tese every x00 chapters.

Why does every damn character have to have a romantic life, im not saying that he should completely leave it out, im saying 2-3 is enough.

I would have loved it if the boss was teased more then what little we got from the entire show by now

The AOs are mental torture, but gosho does neeed to step up and wrap a bunch of old stuff

Im not a fan on how much technology has become important to DC      

 

Ill come back to this later 

[Kirsch 95]

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

If you know Chekhov, she sticks around for the manga cases. Gosho's original intent for DC is to be able to write mystery; if I interpreted his interviews correctly, he thought of the mystery concept before the plot. I honestly don't think Gosho will be dramatically changing that anytime soon, so some of those suggestion, however much I agree with them, are in vain.

 

Personally, I don't like mystery all that much because I'm an idiot who can't deduce anytime \o/. I'm here for the plot. Sure, the plot has the whole "find evidence and deduce" scene, but I love the big reveals. I haven't seen an arc that just came to me as "bad" (unless I start watching the infamous Bourbon arc), so... How can I put this? I don't really mind anymore. Plot progression? YAHHSSSS. Poorly written cases and anti-climatic conclusions? Meh.  

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

so where do people stand now on this

share your thoughts

also

the RUM arc needs to be put in

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

On 1/3/2017 at 5:24 PM, Neo Balthazar said:

so where do people stand now on this

share your thoughts

also

the RUM arc needs to be put in

 

Apologies to everyone, but 20 questions in a poll is the maximum, and I would've overstepped that mark without simplification and reduction in the number of questions.

 

Now, users must specify the degree to which an arc has caused a decline in quality for DC, themselves (minor, medium or major).

 

Further apologies—except for those who voted "Not at All," all users who already cast their vote must now vote again.

 

Again—especially in light of this change—feel free to ask any questions if you're confused by the poll or the question, or simply this change, in general, if you fell I've not explained it well enough.

[Antiyonder 10]

On 2/12/2015 at 4:12 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

 

While better pacing might help, I think it's oversimplifying to suggest that the length itself is the issue really.  For lack of better description as a whole, it really feels at times like some of the creative energy Gosho had is shown to be draining since The Bourbon arc.  And I certainly will do more specific posting when/if I can better articulate things, but at the moment I again bring up the comparison of The Desperate Revival and the Shiragami arc as they have a strong similar premise (Conan temporarily returning to his original body and is able to solve mysteries without using a dummy or claiming that he receive the answer from someone over the phone).

 

Both stories obviously are going to end with the regular status quo in place as well the series is named Detective Conan, at least in the country of origin.  But then it's arguably a matter of making the journey interesting even with the destination being clear.

 

Now lets start with the Shiragami arc.  First two episodes are pretty alright.  Conan is back as Shinichi only to have apparently lost his memory and might have even committed or attempted murder.  Plus even a potential setup for the next suspicion arc.  Last episode is meh.  At best we have yet another case with Shinichi being able to solve the murder mystery directly, but other than that the outcome is painfully obvious without any strong attempts to make us feel anything else.

 

The Desperate Revival?  We have another suspicion bit during the first half, which is refreshingly handled different than the previous "Ran is suspicious of Conan", plus the means of throwing her off the trail is more elaborate.  Additionally we get the Detective Boys having to solve the rest of a case with Conan mortally wounded, plus a brief one time moment where they meet Shinichi (and I really hope we get to see a more lengthy encounter in the future).

 

And I think the biggest weakness of the Shiragami arc, notably Episode 523 is that there wasn't much other than the eventual return to form.  Shinichi knew this time around that he was going to revert back into being Conan with the only bit of drama is the pill wearing off sooner than anticipated.

 

In The Desperate Revival, he believes himself to be back to normal, for good especially after going through the painful feeling of shrinking, only to find that he's still in his regular body.  So even with the understanding that he'll go back to being Conan, the character believes that he can finally regain a semblance of his normal life and even take the next step in his relationship with Ran.   As a result, the moment where he feels the transformation back into Conan we see the emotional pain of him realizing that his plans for a happy relationship is not going to happen.

 

Heck, as a whole, The Desperate Revival really tries get the audience into thinking that anything can happen, whereas the Shiragami arc straight up says "You want a shake up in the status quo?  Too damn bad.".

 

Kind of like how some magicians can make a trick seem truly magical while others are just clearly using strings that they fail to hide.

 

Afterall, even upon rereading the Desperate Revival or reading it for the first time with spoilers that give the outcome away, the illusion still holds strong in my opinion.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

51 minutes ago, Antiyonder said:

 

While better pacing might help, I think it's oversimplifying to suggest that the length itself is the issue really.  For lack of better description as a whole, it really feels at times like some of the creative energy Gosho had is shown to be draining since The Bourbon arc.  And I certainly will do more specific posting when/if I can better articulate things, but at the moment I again bring up the comparison of The Desperate Revival and the Shiragami arc as they have a strong similar premise (Conan temporarily returning to his original body and is able to solve mysteries without using a dummy or claiming that he receive the answer from someone over the phone).

 

Both stories obviously are going to end with the regular status quo in place as well the series is named Detective Conan, at least in the country of origin.  But then it's arguably a matter of making the journey interesting even with the destination being clear.

 

Now lets start with the Shiragami arc.  First two episodes are pretty alright.  Conan is back as Shinichi only to have apparently lost his memory and might have even committed or attempted murder.  Plus even a potential setup for the next suspicion arc.  Last episode is meh.  At best we have yet another case with Shinichi being able to solve the murder mystery directly, but other than that the outcome is painfully obvious without any strong attempts to make us feel anything else.

 

The Desperate Revival?  We have another suspicion bit during the first half, which is refreshingly handled different than the previous "Ran is suspicious of Conan", plus the means of throwing her off the trail is more elaborate.  Additionally we get the Detective Boys having to solve the rest of a case with Conan mortally wounded, plus a brief one time moment where they meet Shinichi (and I really hope we get to see a more lengthy encounter in the future).

 

And I think the biggest weakness of the Shiragami arc, notably Episode 523 is that there wasn't much other than the eventual return to form.  Shinichi knew this time around that he was going to revert back into being Conan with the only bit of drama is the pill wearing off sooner than anticipated.

 

In The Desperate Revival, he believes himself to be back to normal, for good especially after going through the painful feeling of shrinking, only to find that he's still in his regular body.  So even with the understanding that he'll go back to being Conan, the character believes that he can finally regain a semblance of his normal life and even take the next step in his relationship with Ran.   As a result, the moment where he feels the transformation back into Conan we see the emotional pain of him realizing that his plans for a happy relationship is not going to happen.

 

Heck, as a whole, The Desperate Revival really tries get the audience into thinking that anything can happen, whereas the Shiragami arc straight up says "You want a shake up in the status quo?  Too damn bad.".

 

Kind of like how some magicians can make a trick seem truly magical while others are just clearly using strings that they fail to hide.

 

Afterall, even upon rereading the Desperate Revival or reading it for the first time with spoilers that give the outcome away, the illusion still holds strong in my opinion.

 

The thing with the Muderer, Shinichi Kudo case (646–651/522–523) is this—it gives material for Ran's next suspicion arc (Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints on Heiji's charm), but we just haven't gotten to the point where Gosho thinks it's time for the next Ran suspicion arc, where she could actually put that material to use. 

 

Until Gosho actually considers the board set—actually thinks that all the pieces that should be there are not only present, but in place—all the things he hooked fans with will not get the long awaited development and resolution. This is why there's so much retreading, repetition and dangling character/plot threads. For whatever reason you wish to argue, Gosho doesn't think it's time for say, Ran to suspect Conan of being Shinichi again...

 

...but here's another thing. Ran has been given so much in the Bourbon arc (https://www.facebook.com/pg/DCTheRedThread/photos/?tab=album&album_id=651395024912454). It's as if Gosho's laying groundwork for Ran's next suspicion arc—while setting up Bourbon, Rum and the Akais to tie in with Vermouth and the Miyanos—given the delay between her most recent one (479–483/398–400) and now, and the fact that there were three suspicion arcs in the first 500 Files/400 Episodes but none in the past 500 Files/400 Episodes gives reason to think the next one may very well be the last one.

[Antiyonder 10]

"The thing with the Muderer, Shinichi Kudo case (646–651/522–523) is this—it gives material for Ran's next suspicion arc (Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints on Heiji's charm), but we just haven't gotten to the point where Gosho thinks it's time for the next Ran suspicion arc, where she could actually put that material to use."

 

1. Which I'll concede as a point more for the first half, but arguably as a whole it is still meh. 

 

"Until Gosho actually considers the board set—actually thinks that all the pieces that should be there are not only present, but in place—all the things he hooked fans with will not get the long awaited development and resolution. This is why there's so much retreading, repetition and dangling character/plot threads. For whatever reason you wish to argue, Gosho doesn't think it's time for say, Ran to suspect Conan of being Shinichi again..."

 

2. Right, but retreads don't have to be problematic in and of itself.  Pointing to the Desperate Revival again, the arc redoes several elements that have been done, but with actual variation and freshness.

 

A. The first two times that Ran show suspicion, it basically was by the number.  Something happens to prompt her suspicion of Conan being Shinichi, she corners him in an attempt to get the truth and then after a trick to prove otherwise, she drops her suspicion or at least give up for the time being.

 

Heck, one major mistake she makes the first time around is letting Conan know that she's onto him, thus giving him space and time to find a way to disprove her claim.  And she makes that mistake for a second time (and 4th, but not my point).

 

With DR, we get an actual shake up with:

A. Ran having maintained the knowledge this time around realizing that approach him on the the matter will likely prompt him to trying to lie to her again.

B. We actually have Conan for the first time actually humoring the idea of telling her everything and not as some last resort (i.e. telling her so she can inform the train conductors about a bomb).

 

Plus the first two attempts to throw off her suspicion are simple tricks.  First time he gives Agasa the bowtie so he can call Ran with Shinichi's voice while Conan is present.  The second time, he has his mom coming to claim he's a relative of Shinichi.

 

This time around, we get Haibara using an decent Conan disguise with the means of imitating his kid voice, while the genuine article appears as Shinichi which really helps to make the 4th time around all the more underwhelming.

 

B. The first time around, Conan regained his true body long enough to solve a case only to revert back almost immediately.  This time around he has a lot more time to adjust to the possibility of being normal and being able to resume his life to a degree.

 

In short, it may rehash a couple things, plus ending with the status quo intact, but the writing and the energy makes it feel more impressive than it maybe should.

 

"...but here's another thing. Ran has been given so much in the Bourbon arc (https://www.facebook.com/pg/DCTheRedThread/photos/?tab=album&album_id=651395024912454). It's as if Gosho's laying groundwork for Ran's next suspicion arc—while setting up Bourbon, Rum and the Akais to tie in with Vermouth and the Miyanos—given the delay between her most recent one (479–483/398–400) and now, and the fact that there were three suspicion arcs in the first 500 Files/400 Episodes but none in the past 500 Files/400 Episodes gives reason to think the next one may very well be the last one."

 

3. Which is all well and good, but it comes at the expense of her character arguably declining in the mean time rather than doing the whole thing much sooner such as around the time of the Kir arc, while finally bringing the change shortly before or shortly after Clash of Red and Black.  Especially as:

 

A. I don't know, I think the story could have found a way to do the whole double cell phones which what is basically the only redeeming value of the 4th suspicion arc.

B. Again, the Shiragami arc's only true value (besides the first half being arguably better that the last episode) is one scrap of build up to a story which is still basically taking a decade to get to the point.

 

Now I'll grant another concession.  As vocal as I am about this, it's still an opinion, not a fact.  But even if Ran's character hasn't declined, isn't it generally better to develop a character in a reasonable pace before they have a chance to decline in terms of quality rather than wait until said development becomes damage control?  And even if Ran or the series hasn't declined, part of why I and arguably others are more critical is because we want things to move along as much as possible so that they don't become outright bad.

 

4. And I apologize for harping on the subject so much, it's just that so far, the only possible downsides I've seen to letting Ran come into the fold earlier would be.  By earlier lets say that during the time of the 4th suspicion arc (Episodes 398-400).  Instead of Ran approaching Conan like in the canon, it's merely the jumping point to begin her attempts to uncover the truth and find proof so that Conan can't rebuke her claim.

 

As to when the secret between them is over, can't really find a specific point, but maybe mid 400s sometime before Clash of Red & Black.

 

That said here's the suppose problems that make a request unreasonable.  Spoiler tag for compression sake:

 

 

A. It will limit the potential for new stories and thus resulting in having to end the story: This I believe is the big reason why this particular change has yet to occur.

Now if there are some really substantial stories in the future that can't work with Ran in the know, then ok. But if it's something like the 5th, 6th, 7th and so on rehash of "Ran has stumbled onto Conan's secret, now he has to pull off a jerkish move to throw her off" or to have yet another moment where Shinichi and Ran end up in such an intimate situation, we've been down both roads before. So yeah lets try some growth.

Or looking at the standard cases that Conan solves as Kogoro, compared to the earliest episodes with this structure, Ran barely gets in the way of Conan nowadays that her being aware, wouldn't really hurt the formula that much or at all.

More on why I consider this to be a poor reason in a bit.  Though as we are close to 1,000 episodes and files, I think Gosho should consider swallowing his pride and let the proverbial child grow.  Even at 500 episodes and 600 files this status quo needed to die, but again later.

B. It would mess up the status quo for the movie going audiences in the films: It wouldn't be the first anime series with movies to do so, and it's not that complicating of a change. Especially with the opening which gives exposition for said audience.

C. Ran and Kogoro will be in danger: Basically the biggest reason in story, with the mindset that if the organization finds out who Shinichi is, they'll sort out who else knows said secret and kill them.

But, the manga/anime demonstrates that Gin or any other member would be more likely to kill someone connected to the target without taking the time to see if they are aware of the organization or not. More on this in Pros 5, though there's another thing to consider in this regard.

If anything, living with them is more likely to make them a potential target than whether they know his secret or not. And considering he has other means of getting a lead, such as the connections that his own father has, it means he doesn't have a valid reason for staying with Ran & Kogoro other than ego and status quo.

D. Ran would become a hindrance (i.e. trying to help out, only to get in the way) or that Conan will let his guard down around her and compromise his cover: Yes and no. One reason for no, I'll cover in the pros list, but another rebuttal to this is that it works both ways.

Lets look at Episode 522 for example. Shinichi has to make a getaway from Ran, Kogoro & Kazuha before he reverts back to Conan and barely avoids getting caught, while having to have another antidote. Then the next episode has him in the same situation, only on the highway with more people who would witness the transformation.

So, basically if Ran was in on the secret by Episode 522, she and Heiji would have stood a better chance at helping Shinichi to perserve his secret and maybe even negating the need to have that antidote.

Heck, look way back in Episode 10. For a quick recap, a girl named Ryoko Akagi came to the detective agency and was hoping to find Shinichi as she apparently is his girlfriend. (which was really her trying get his attention for help in finding a missing person).

So Ran and Conan goes with her, back to her home. Conan shortly after, hides in the bathroom to call this client as Shinichi. Needless to say, Ran thinks that Shinichi has been seeing this girl, and upon finding that he is actually in the house tries to enter the bathroom to corner him.

As such, Conan has to spend quite a bit of time dodging her, and soon after, running out to conceal his secret. So yeah, keeping her in dark is necessary to prevent her from becoming a hindrance indeed.

 

 

I'd welcome some speculation for the sake of discussion and perspective, but for now those are the only downside I see for this particular bit of the status quo.  Now on the flipside here's the positives to changing things in this fashion and again spoiler tags to compress the post:

 

A. Yeah, sometimes people need to make hard choices for the greater good, but the ends don't always justify the means and sometimes the hero must not always slay the dragon to earn their happy ending but dealing with their own dark side.  In other words even if Shinichi/Conan and Ran's relationship to be is suppose to be viewed as healthy the length of her being kept in the dark doesn't help some to see it that way.

 

I mean I look at all Shinichi/Ran moments from the flashback to his first case up to the last day they spent together before well The Big Shrink.  Still a sign of a relationship that needs time to grow, but I actually see these two feeling like a team.  Equals.  Compare that to the present where he in deep and she is being deceive because of the unspoken policy that love interest to the main character must only be on the sidelines.  It would be problematic even if Gosho kept to the original game plan of the story being 7 months long, but the more this is kept from changing the more problematic feelings that arguably come from it.

 

Having the development occur sooner would mean reducing this unintentional vibe and help to make the two feel like partners and equals.  And frankly considering that we'll likely see the series ending around episode and file 10,000, waiting for the end to let Ran in on the secret doesn't allow any justice done for her reaction or the emotional consequences of Conan's actions.

 

B. It would seriously help both characters become better even.  Ran uncovering the secret and being brought into it means she gets more to do, and it would serve as a way to give Conan a chance for more humility by realizing that sometimes a person can be harmed by their loved ones emotionally than any physical damage brought on by the bad guys.

 

C. I keep hearing that it reduces the potential for new stories to the point that you might as well just end the whole thing.  Funny, I see some pretty good stories to help keep things fresh on the side and interesting:

• Relating to A and B, I don't care to see Ran post-confession hating and snubbing Shinichi/Conan cold turkey.  But for the time being there's the coping aspect to the whole thing.  Conan needs to accept that he caused Ran more pain than he tried to protect her from, while Ran not hating Conan is still coping with the fact that she was lied to and not trusted.  While I don't know how to have it come about, maybe keep this as the status quo with things relaxing between them during the London arc as it would be one of the few stories to be heavily altered, thus allowing that arc to still has something to use for an emotional moment.  Maybe near the end when Conan briefly becomes Shinichi, include a nice moment where the two decide to talk for a while and have their first friendly & honest conversation (i.e. talking in person without a voice changing device and no lies between them) since the whole Apotoxin thing happened.
• Now to give Conan some understanding, while he and those helping him might have gone overboard at one point or another with the whole secrecy thing, keeping it is still important to a point.  To illustrate such a detail, there could be several occasions where Ran's newfound involvement has her dealing with the irony that she was once being lied to in the interest of protecting everybody, now she has to contribute to that lie whether the person stumbling onto the secret is an acquaintance, friend or family member.  Heck, this could be the reason why she might be willing to grant Conan forgiveness to begin with and help her with having perspective on the matter.  Also an example of this, well the Shiragami story.  I still find the first two episodes (521-522) to be decent for reasons stated, but I really find that 523 is really the weaker part as it really doesn't even try make the proverbial journey interest.  At best it's something we don't see often, but other than treading old grounds without much to offer, meh.  Heck, The London arc had that love confession going on afterwards.  More on this in a bit.  But yeah one major change for Episode 522 is that it could even be the first time where Ran isn't only keeping the secret, but has to help Heiji to actively keep others (Kogoro and Kazuha) out of the loop.  What's more is the delicious sense of irony of the two main characters.  One has to learn to ease up on the secrecy, while one has to practice to help maintain it.  Irony and and opposite developments.
• So what to do with Episode 523?  Well we'd be without Shinichi story which would mean average mystery case right?  Wrong.  This could be say the first of many future cases since the Ski Lodge Murder Case (way back in Episode 84-85) where Ran steps up to help Conan (and in the case of this ep, Heiji) solve the case.  So within the new and improved version of the Shiragami arc for example, Ran not only has to deal with hypocritically being dishonest to her loved ones, but gets to shine by helping to solve a case.
• Though other characters also help in this regard, but there's more of a chance for Conan to grow out the mentality that he knows what's best and that sometimes he has to trust that Ran's presence will be more of help that hindrance, just as Ran has to occasionally accept that she can't always help Conan in a direct fashion.
• Ok, one possible consequence is the serious removal of heartbreaking drama.  First by removing the wall of secrecy between Conan and Ran, plus the eventual moment where their (currently platonic) relationship starts to mend and become stronger.  So we end all potential tension right?  Isn't that cute, but it's WRONG!!! (2 Stupid Dog reference:-))  All jerky kidding aside, yeah while the characters aren't perfect in terms of morality, I doubt Ran is going to try to be intimate with a 6 year old boy, even if said boy is her age.  In other words, You have a much more compelling bit of tension which doesn't have any easy solutions, unless you consider getting a permanent Apotoxin cure or defeating an Organization is easy.  Ran and Conan might have a stronger relationship with the secrets/lies gone, but until Conan is permanently cure and the threat is over, they couldn't really act on their feelings beyond friendship.  There's enough tension to be found when two people love each, but are kept apart from each other both literally and figuratively.  Just image being together in proximity but having to deny the deeper feelings for one another.  Seriously why fallback on lack of communication as a source of drama when a much stronger and challenging one is basically given to you in a pretty box, free of charge?

 

D. Not much to say here other than such a change helping to give the illusion and feel that anything can happen despite certain elements that do need to remain status quo.

 

In short the positives of this change would be:

• Dealing with what's arguably unfortunate implications (lack of trust, respect and love).
• Making two of the main characters even better, plus giving one more to do with screen and panel time with more of an agency.
• Helps to lessen any chance of creative reduction.
• Replaces cheap source of tension with real drama for what's left of a continuing series.
• Gosho might be under the impression that this development will herald the end of the series, but would ironically result in him having some stronger padding.  So much that you could use the series as a nice cushy bed and sleep like royalty.
• Also, loads and loads of irony.  Can be funny or just plain good for the soul. 

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

2 hours ago, Antiyonder said:

1. Which I'll concede as a point more for the first half, but arguably as a whole it is still meh. 

 

As a whole? As in, including the Highway Murder Case (652–654/522–523)? Going up against The Desperate Revival? Of course. The Highway Murder Case turned out to be just a matter of guessing how Shinichi will escape the situation and Ran will still know nothing—and, indeed, Shiho/Ai and Hiroshi turned out to be how he got out of that situation and preserved the status quo.

 

2 hours ago, Antiyonder said:

Retreads don't have to be problematic in and of itself.

 

Yeah, it's just a matter of execution.

 

The thing is, I'm not going to make a certain assumption because Gosho's retreading, as of late, has been criticized—I'm not going to assume that he's no longer capable of "good" retreading, just because of how unnecessarily protracted DC is, to some, at the moment. I'd like for people not to assume, because of how the Bourbon arc went, that every arc after it will be of the same quality until the series ends. Perhaps when he decides that the time has come to stop extending DC (when he decides the board is set), things will be back to Clash of Red and Black levels of quality and excitement—perhaps some consider current DC just not as good as old DC because he's doing all he can to keep things going, as they are, and when he stops doing that, perhaps it'll get back to a higher level of quality.

 

2 hours ago, Antiyonder said:

Which is all well and good, but it comes at the expense of her character arguably declining in the mean time rather than doing the whole thing much sooner such as around the time of the Kir arc, while finally bringing the change shortly before or shortly after Clash of Red and Black.  Especially as:

 

Again, the Shiragami arc's only true value (besides the first half being arguably better that the last episode) is one scrap of build up to a story which is still basically taking a decade to get to the point.

 

Now I'll grant another concession.  As vocal as I am about this, it's still an opinion, not a fact.  But even if Ran's character hasn't declined, isn't it generally better to develop a character in a reasonable pace before they have a chance to decline in terms of quality rather than wait until said development becomes damage control?  And even if Ran or the series hasn't declined, part of why I and arguably others are more critical is because we want things to move along as much as possible so that they don't become outright bad.

 

If you consider long stagnation to be a decline, then I get your point.

 

That would imply that Gosho is aware of and/or cares what certain fans think of how long DC has gone on, and in the way he's decided to take things, post Vermouth arc and post Kir arc. Damage control is when you're aware that something's up that a certain displeased contingent/group don't care for, and are trying to appease said displeased contingent/group. Thus, having Ran find out that Shinichi is Conan, say, post File 1000, isn't damage control. It's snail's pace development, paired with long stagnation, but development nonetheless. That a problem for you? Again, point taken.

 

"Outright bad?" Ah, so stagnation is a decline for you—at least in this case—then. I can definitely understand—in this case. But I still think "outright bad" is a bit much/harsh—"very disappointing," on the other hand? I would not consider that to be a bit much/harsh. (But there are probably those who'd use harsher words and say DC is already "outright bad," at the least)