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Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?

By DCUniverseAficionado, in General

Decline in the Quality of Detective Conan?  

16 members have voted

  1. 1. If Detective Conan declined in quality, in which arc did it do so, and to what degree (please specify degree in your post)?

    • Not at All
      4
    • Conan Arc (Manga: 1–175, Anime: 1–128)
      0
    • Haibara Arc (Manga: 176–237, Anime: 129–175)
      0
    • Vermouth Arc (Manga: 238–434, Anime: 176–345)
      0
    • Cell Phone Arc (Manga: 435–498, Anime: 346–424)
      1
    • Kir Arc (Manga: 499–621, Anime: 425–508)
      0
    • Bourbon Arc (Manga: 622–898, Anime: 509–783)
      3
    • Rum Arc (Manga: 899–, Anime: 784–)
      1

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DCUniverseAficionado    252

DCUniverseAficionado
Posted
As I've been reading these forums, as well as the ones on the DCTP, on which I've posted this poll, as well, I've gotten a sense of cynicism/disappointment/frustration when it comes to the past couple years of Detective Conan stories—essentially, I see that the Bourbon arc isn't too well liked. There are probably some who think that Detective Conan has been slipping in quality since the Vermouth arc climax.
 
I am interested in when you think Detective Conan began to slip in quality, if at all—I've enjoyed the whole story, but, when it comes to fiction, I can be quite forgiving—and why, as well as to what degree. I would prefer detailed explanations as to why, but if you feel you'd be repeating yourself and don't want to do so, then either provide a link to a prior detailed explanation, or insist that I look it up, myself.
 

EDIT (1/5/17):

I will now be including the Rum arc, since we're nearly 100 Files into it. It and any other arc is fair game.

 

Users may select two options if they so desire, in case a user thinks that there was more than one lapse in quality. Finally, users can change their vote at any time, in case reflection/discussion changes a user's mind.

 

Feel free to ask any questions if you're confused by the poll or the question.
 
EDIT (1/5/17):
Please see my 1/5/17 post for an update to the poll.
 

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Balthazar Manfredie    226

Balthazar Manfredie
Posted

I have first watched the anime then i found out about the manga somewhere around the Inubushi Castle case. 

I would say that from Episode 1-345 is the best for me, it had a lot of great/good gosho  and AO cases. There have been some misses here and there but this is my favorite "part" of DC.

 

After 345 till the intro of Kir 425 i would have to say that there are some great/good cases here, granted some are torture to watch, and dont have much complain here. I almost forgot to say that in this part of DC Kid started to suck

 

From 426-504 cases were like...good, then bad, then good, then bad

If you were to take the best out of the AO and skip the bad  ones then its a great story, then again Gosho had his fair share of bad to me in this one. I liked eisukes intro in this part, and thought there was not enough of him. The Clash series is Phenomenal.

 

From 505-666 it was, some are good some are that i don't care for and why even make them, the AOs became a drag much like goshos cases. Granted there are the Shiragami case, the guardian of time, inubushi castle, red  wall and the mansion of death exceptions. I did not like holmes revelation. This part was bad.

 

666-766+manga

So many bad filler cases, so much bad AOs, Amuro didn't impress me, later i decided that Sera was pointless in this arc.

I love train cases, add the BO to it and i should have one of my fave cases ever...yet i was somewhat disappointed.

THere are a few nice ones like kogoro in the bar and makoto vs kid and heiji and the vampire mansion, and i love  Dancing Demon at the Noh Mask Mansion.

The way bourbon arc ended was a disappointment. Spying and having a car chase while watching an award show...no

After that showdown there have been some interesting case in the manga by gosho 

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Kirsch    95

Kirsch
Posted

At only 410-ish episodes, I'm not the best person to ask. However, I can say that the fillers are torturous. I only watch the anime, so going AO after AO is extremely discouraging.

Story-wise, it's still going strong for me. The first 100 episodes were great, the second hundred had some of the best arcs *cough*DesperateRevival*coughcough*, and the third hundred had Vermouth.

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Kirsch    95

Kirsch
Posted
  On 2/11/2015 at 10:21 PM, Reverend Balthazar said:

you are in a world of hurt later on with the AOs

Which is why I practically gave up. I can't bring myself to jump episodes, and these AOs ;A;

I'm doing my best reading the spoilers though. They are written beautifully xD

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Kenzi    146

Kenzi
Posted

Everything that happened after the Kir arc was completely blown off to the side, and a few episodes later, it even felt like it never existed.

There was absolutely zero elaboration on the happenings of Kir after the arc ended, which really made the entire arc feel like a huge waste of time.

 

I would have expected such a dramatic arc to be referenced at least somewhat regularly other than with the musings of Scar Akai. At least it didn't turn out as anti-climactic as the Bourbon arc. As of right now, the Bourbon arc easily takes the cake was the worst arc in the series. That's not to say that the Kir arc was bad though. It most certainly was a good arc--what bothers me was its continual decreasing relevance after it ended.

 

tl;dr, DC took a turn for the worse after the Kir arc. 

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DCUniverseAficionado    252

DCUniverseAficionado
Posted

So what was needed in the Bourbon arc was a stronger connection to the events of the Kir arc, and the cutting of many cases—524-557, 562, 565-577, 582-609, 614-630, 633-645, 648-666, 669-698, 705-711, 718-766, in particular? (I excluded Detective Boys Vs Robber Group and The Crisis Beckoned by the Red Omen, unless you'd rather have them not there, either–in any case, you want those 211 episodes removed)

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Balthazar Manfredie    226

Balthazar Manfredie
Posted

Vermouth arc had connections to the Kir arc, would have made sense that Kir had some connection to the Bourbon arc as well.

If it had i don't think that we would have the cases we had back then, cause he would have to change something in order to fit. Also, bad AOs kill the mood for watching DC. There have been a lot of those going back to after the Vermouth arc. If you want my score of those episodes then 

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DCUniverseAficionado    252

DCUniverseAficionado
Posted
  On 2/12/2015 at 3:02 PM, Reverend Balthazar said:

Vermouth arc had connections to the Kir arc, would have made sense that Kir had some connection to the Bourbon arc as well.

If it had i don't think that we would have the cases we had back then, cause he would have to change something in order to fit. Also, bad AOs kill the mood for watching DC. There have been a lot of those going back to after the Vermouth arc. If you want my score of those episodes then 

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Thanks for this–I hope I'm not imposing or anything.

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DCUniverseAficionado    252

DCUniverseAficionado
Posted
  On 2/12/2015 at 11:43 PM, Reverend Balthazar said:

This thread is great.

 

Coming from a veteran like you, it's an honor.

 

  On 2/12/2015 at 11:43 PM, Reverend Balthazar said:

Not at all. I do love leting my frustrations out regarding the anime/manga.

I love shows that have begining, midle, end.

With DC im not sure where i am

 

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

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Balthazar Manfredie    226

Balthazar Manfredie
Posted
  On 2/13/2015 at 12:12 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Coming from a veteran like you, it's an honor.

You make me blush  :blush:

the general section has gotten slow or romance filled

 

  On 2/13/2015 at 12:12 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

I think that gosho did the wrong thing by making DC this long, filled with unnecessary stuff.

I find Vermouth interesting, and the only thing we got is that she=chris=sharon, and does not age...so to say.

THere is a lot more that has to be revealed about her and jet nothing.

It would seem that Sera and Eisuke are in the same situation( story ), the only diff is that sera has a bigger family.The only reason i have Eisuke above sera as a favorite character is because he is funny, Sera on the other hand is pointless like him. They came they saw they left (one did anyway)

Whats up with the computer program and drug, we only get a tese every x00 chapters.

Why does every damn character have to have a romantic life, im not saying that he should completely leave it out, im saying 2-3 is enough.

I would have loved it if the boss was teased more then what little we got from the entire show by now

The AOs are mental torture, but gosho does neeed to step up and wrap a bunch of old stuff

Im not a fan on how much technology has become important to DC      

 

Ill come back to this later  ^_^

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Kirsch    95

Kirsch
Posted
  On 2/13/2015 at 12:12 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

If you know Chekhov, she sticks around for the manga cases. Gosho's original intent for DC is to be able to write mystery; if I interpreted his interviews correctly, he thought of the mystery concept before the plot. I honestly don't think Gosho will be dramatically changing that anytime soon, so some of those suggestion, however much I agree with them, are in vain.

 

Personally, I don't like mystery all that much because I'm an idiot who can't deduce anytime \o/. I'm here for the plot. Sure, the plot has the whole "find evidence and deduce" scene, but I love the big reveals. I haven't seen an arc that just came to me as "bad" (unless I start watching the infamous Bourbon arc), so... How can I put this? I don't really mind anymore. Plot progression? YAHHSSSS. Poorly written cases and anti-climatic conclusions? Meh.  

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DCUniverseAficionado    252

DCUniverseAficionado
Posted
  On 1/3/2017 at 10:24 PM, Neo Balthazar said:

so where do people stand now on this

share your thoughts

also

the RUM arc needs to be put in

 

Apologies to everyone, but 20 questions in a poll is the maximum, and I would've overstepped that mark without simplification and reduction in the number of questions.

 

Now, users must specify the degree to which an arc has caused a decline in quality for DC, themselves (minor, medium or major).

 

Further apologies—except for those who voted "Not at All," all users who already cast their vote must now vote again.

 

Again—especially in light of this change—feel free to ask any questions if you're confused by the poll or the question, or simply this change, in general, if you fell I've not explained it well enough.

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Antiyonder    10

Antiyonder
Posted
  On 2/13/2015 at 12:12 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

What do you think will get us on the right track? (Again with the questions, I know, so, before you ask, here's what I think: from my reading of the fandom of this forum and DCTP, answers need to be given and mysteries need to be revealed at a faster pace–which is the crux of fans' issues with DC, right now: the story needs to move at a faster pace–as for "just bad" cases, be they AO or by Gosho, I realize that they are inferior to the ones lauded by the community, but for me, personally, it takes a lot to get me to call something "just bad," but for others, it doesn't take much for them to call something "just bad.") 

 

While better pacing might help, I think it's oversimplifying to suggest that the length itself is the issue really.  For lack of better description as a whole, it really feels at times like some of the creative energy Gosho had is shown to be draining since The Bourbon arc.  And I certainly will do more specific posting when/if I can better articulate things, but at the moment I again bring up the comparison of The Desperate Revival and the Shiragami arc as they have a strong similar premise (Conan temporarily returning to his original body and is able to solve mysteries without using a dummy or claiming that he receive the answer from someone over the phone).

 

Both stories obviously are going to end with the regular status quo in place as well the series is named Detective Conan, at least in the country of origin.  But then it's arguably a matter of making the journey interesting even with the destination being clear.

 

Now lets start with the Shiragami arc.  First two episodes are pretty alright.  Conan is back as Shinichi only to have apparently lost his memory and might have even committed or attempted murder.  Plus even a potential setup for the next suspicion arc.  Last episode is meh.  At best we have yet another case with Shinichi being able to solve the murder mystery directly, but other than that the outcome is painfully obvious without any strong attempts to make us feel anything else.

 

The Desperate Revival?  We have another suspicion bit during the first half, which is refreshingly handled different than the previous "Ran is suspicious of Conan", plus the means of throwing her off the trail is more elaborate.  Additionally we get the Detective Boys having to solve the rest of a case with Conan mortally wounded, plus a brief one time moment where they meet Shinichi (and I really hope we get to see a more lengthy encounter in the future).

 

And I think the biggest weakness of the Shiragami arc, notably Episode 523 is that there wasn't much other than the eventual return to form.  Shinichi knew this time around that he was going to revert back into being Conan with the only bit of drama is the pill wearing off sooner than anticipated.

 

In The Desperate Revival, he believes himself to be back to normal, for good especially after going through the painful feeling of shrinking, only to find that he's still in his regular body.  So even with the understanding that he'll go back to being Conan, the character believes that he can finally regain a semblance of his normal life and even take the next step in his relationship with Ran.   As a result, the moment where he feels the transformation back into Conan we see the emotional pain of him realizing that his plans for a happy relationship is not going to happen.

 

Heck, as a whole, The Desperate Revival really tries get the audience into thinking that anything can happen, whereas the Shiragami arc straight up says "You want a shake up in the status quo?  Too damn bad.".

 

Kind of like how some magicians can make a trick seem truly magical while others are just clearly using strings that they fail to hide.

 

Afterall, even upon rereading the Desperate Revival or reading it for the first time with spoilers that give the outcome away, the illusion still holds strong in my opinion.

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DCUniverseAficionado    252

DCUniverseAficionado
Posted
  On 1/6/2017 at 7:15 AM, Antiyonder said:

 

While better pacing might help, I think it's oversimplifying to suggest that the length itself is the issue really.  For lack of better description as a whole, it really feels at times like some of the creative energy Gosho had is shown to be draining since The Bourbon arc.  And I certainly will do more specific posting when/if I can better articulate things, but at the moment I again bring up the comparison of The Desperate Revival and the Shiragami arc as they have a strong similar premise (Conan temporarily returning to his original body and is able to solve mysteries without using a dummy or claiming that he receive the answer from someone over the phone).

 

Both stories obviously are going to end with the regular status quo in place as well the series is named Detective Conan, at least in the country of origin.  But then it's arguably a matter of making the journey interesting even with the destination being clear.

 

Now lets start with the Shiragami arc.  First two episodes are pretty alright.  Conan is back as Shinichi only to have apparently lost his memory and might have even committed or attempted murder.  Plus even a potential setup for the next suspicion arc.  Last episode is meh.  At best we have yet another case with Shinichi being able to solve the murder mystery directly, but other than that the outcome is painfully obvious without any strong attempts to make us feel anything else.

 

The Desperate Revival?  We have another suspicion bit during the first half, which is refreshingly handled different than the previous "Ran is suspicious of Conan", plus the means of throwing her off the trail is more elaborate.  Additionally we get the Detective Boys having to solve the rest of a case with Conan mortally wounded, plus a brief one time moment where they meet Shinichi (and I really hope we get to see a more lengthy encounter in the future).

 

And I think the biggest weakness of the Shiragami arc, notably Episode 523 is that there wasn't much other than the eventual return to form.  Shinichi knew this time around that he was going to revert back into being Conan with the only bit of drama is the pill wearing off sooner than anticipated.

 

In The Desperate Revival, he believes himself to be back to normal, for good especially after going through the painful feeling of shrinking, only to find that he's still in his regular body.  So even with the understanding that he'll go back to being Conan, the character believes that he can finally regain a semblance of his normal life and even take the next step in his relationship with Ran.   As a result, the moment where he feels the transformation back into Conan we see the emotional pain of him realizing that his plans for a happy relationship is not going to happen.

 

Heck, as a whole, The Desperate Revival really tries get the audience into thinking that anything can happen, whereas the Shiragami arc straight up says "You want a shake up in the status quo?  Too damn bad.".

 

Kind of like how some magicians can make a trick seem truly magical while others are just clearly using strings that they fail to hide.

 

Afterall, even upon rereading the Desperate Revival or reading it for the first time with spoilers that give the outcome away, the illusion still holds strong in my opinion.

 

The thing with the Muderer, Shinichi Kudo case (646–651/522–523) is this—it gives material for Ran's next suspicion arc (Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints on Heiji's charm), but we just haven't gotten to the point where Gosho thinks it's time for the next Ran suspicion arc, where she could actually put that material to use. 

 

Until Gosho actually considers the board set—actually thinks that all the pieces that should be there are not only present, but in place—all the things he hooked fans with will not get the long awaited development and resolution. This is why there's so much retreading, repetition and dangling character/plot threads. For whatever reason you wish to argue, Gosho doesn't think it's time for say, Ran to suspect Conan of being Shinichi again...

 

...but here's another thing. Ran has been given so much in the Bourbon arc (https://www.facebook.com/pg/DCTheRedThread/photos/?tab=album&album_id=651395024912454). It's as if Gosho's laying groundwork for Ran's next suspicion arc—while setting up Bourbon, Rum and the Akais to tie in with Vermouth and the Miyanos—given the delay between her most recent one (479–483/398–400) and now, and the fact that there were three suspicion arcs in the first 500 Files/400 Episodes but none in the past 500 Files/400 Episodes gives reason to think the next one may very well be the last one.

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Antiyonder    10

Antiyonder
Posted

"The thing with the Muderer, Shinichi Kudo case (646–651/522–523) is this—it gives material for Ran's next suspicion arc (Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints on Heiji's charm), but we just haven't gotten to the point where Gosho thinks it's time for the next Ran suspicion arc, where she could actually put that material to use."

 

1. Which I'll concede as a point more for the first half, but arguably as a whole it is still meh. 

 

"Until Gosho actually considers the board set—actually thinks that all the pieces that should be there are not only present, but in place—all the things he hooked fans with will not get the long awaited development and resolution. This is why there's so much retreading, repetition and dangling character/plot threads. For whatever reason you wish to argue, Gosho doesn't think it's time for say, Ran to suspect Conan of being Shinichi again..."

 

2. Right, but retreads don't have to be problematic in and of itself.  Pointing to the Desperate Revival again, the arc redoes several elements that have been done, but with actual variation and freshness.

 

A. The first two times that Ran show suspicion, it basically was by the number.  Something happens to prompt her suspicion of Conan being Shinichi, she corners him in an attempt to get the truth and then after a trick to prove otherwise, she drops her suspicion or at least give up for the time being.

 

Heck, one major mistake she makes the first time around is letting Conan know that she's onto him, thus giving him space and time to find a way to disprove her claim.  And she makes that mistake for a second time (and 4th, but not my point).

 

With DR, we get an actual shake up with:

A. Ran having maintained the knowledge this time around realizing that approach him on the the matter will likely prompt him to trying to lie to her again.

B. We actually have Conan for the first time actually humoring the idea of telling her everything and not as some last resort (i.e. telling her so she can inform the train conductors about a bomb).

 

Plus the first two attempts to throw off her suspicion are simple tricks.  First time he gives Agasa the bowtie so he can call Ran with Shinichi's voice while Conan is present.  The second time, he has his mom coming to claim he's a relative of Shinichi.

 

This time around, we get Haibara using an decent Conan disguise with the means of imitating his kid voice, while the genuine article appears as Shinichi which really helps to make the 4th time around all the more underwhelming.

 

B. The first time around, Conan regained his true body long enough to solve a case only to revert back almost immediately.  This time around he has a lot more time to adjust to the possibility of being normal and being able to resume his life to a degree.

 

In short, it may rehash a couple things, plus ending with the status quo intact, but the writing and the energy makes it feel more impressive than it maybe should.

 

"...but here's another thing. Ran has been given so much in the Bourbon arc (https://www.facebook.com/pg/DCTheRedThread/photos/?tab=album&album_id=651395024912454). It's as if Gosho's laying groundwork for Ran's next suspicion arc—while setting up Bourbon, Rum and the Akais to tie in with Vermouth and the Miyanos—given the delay between her most recent one (479–483/398–400) and now, and the fact that there were three suspicion arcs in the first 500 Files/400 Episodes but none in the past 500 Files/400 Episodes gives reason to think the next one may very well be the last one."

 

3. Which is all well and good, but it comes at the expense of her character arguably declining in the mean time rather than doing the whole thing much sooner such as around the time of the Kir arc, while finally bringing the change shortly before or shortly after Clash of Red and Black.  Especially as:

 

A. I don't know, I think the story could have found a way to do the whole double cell phones which what is basically the only redeeming value of the 4th suspicion arc.

B. Again, the Shiragami arc's only true value (besides the first half being arguably better that the last episode) is one scrap of build up to a story which is still basically taking a decade to get to the point.

 

Now I'll grant another concession.  As vocal as I am about this, it's still an opinion, not a fact.  But even if Ran's character hasn't declined, isn't it generally better to develop a character in a reasonable pace before they have a chance to decline in terms of quality rather than wait until said development becomes damage control?  And even if Ran or the series hasn't declined, part of why I and arguably others are more critical is because we want things to move along as much as possible so that they don't become outright bad.

 

4. And I apologize for harping on the subject so much, it's just that so far, the only possible downsides I've seen to letting Ran come into the fold earlier would be.  By earlier lets say that during the time of the 4th suspicion arc (Episodes 398-400).  Instead of Ran approaching Conan like in the canon, it's merely the jumping point to begin her attempts to uncover the truth and find proof so that Conan can't rebuke her claim.

 

As to when the secret between them is over, can't really find a specific point, but maybe mid 400s sometime before Clash of Red & Black.

 

That said here's the suppose problems that make a request unreasonable.  Spoiler tag for compression sake:

 

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I'd welcome some speculation for the sake of discussion and perspective, but for now those are the only downside I see for this particular bit of the status quo.  Now on the flipside here's the positives to changing things in this fashion and again spoiler tags to compress the post:

 

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DCUniverseAficionado    252

DCUniverseAficionado
Posted
  On 1/6/2017 at 9:16 AM, Antiyonder said:

1. Which I'll concede as a point more for the first half, but arguably as a whole it is still meh. 

 

As a whole? As in, including the Highway Murder Case (652–654/522–523)? Going up against The Desperate Revival? Of course. The Highway Murder Case turned out to be just a matter of guessing how Shinichi will escape the situation and Ran will still know nothing—and, indeed, Shiho/Ai and Hiroshi turned out to be how he got out of that situation and preserved the status quo.

 

  On 1/6/2017 at 9:16 AM, Antiyonder said:

Retreads don't have to be problematic in and of itself.

 

Yeah, it's just a matter of execution.

 

The thing is, I'm not going to make a certain assumption because Gosho's retreading, as of late, has been criticized—I'm not going to assume that he's no longer capable of "good" retreading, just because of how unnecessarily protracted DC is, to some, at the moment. I'd like for people not to assume, because of how the Bourbon arc went, that every arc after it will be of the same quality until the series ends. Perhaps when he decides that the time has come to stop extending DC (when he decides the board is set), things will be back to Clash of Red and Black levels of quality and excitement—perhaps some consider current DC just not as good as old DC because he's doing all he can to keep things going, as they are, and when he stops doing that, perhaps it'll get back to a higher level of quality.

 

  On 1/6/2017 at 9:16 AM, Antiyonder said:

Which is all well and good, but it comes at the expense of her character arguably declining in the mean time rather than doing the whole thing much sooner such as around the time of the Kir arc, while finally bringing the change shortly before or shortly after Clash of Red and Black.  Especially as:

 

Again, the Shiragami arc's only true value (besides the first half being arguably better that the last episode) is one scrap of build up to a story which is still basically taking a decade to get to the point.

 

Now I'll grant another concession.  As vocal as I am about this, it's still an opinion, not a fact.  But even if Ran's character hasn't declined, isn't it generally better to develop a character in a reasonable pace before they have a chance to decline in terms of quality rather than wait until said development becomes damage control?  And even if Ran or the series hasn't declined, part of why I and arguably others are more critical is because we want things to move along as much as possible so that they don't become outright bad.

 

If you consider long stagnation to be a decline, then I get your point.

 

That would imply that Gosho is aware of and/or cares what certain fans think of how long DC has gone on, and in the way he's decided to take things, post Vermouth arc and post Kir arc. Damage control is when you're aware that something's up that a certain displeased contingent/group don't care for, and are trying to appease said displeased contingent/group. Thus, having Ran find out that Shinichi is Conan, say, post File 1000, isn't damage control. It's snail's pace development, paired with long stagnation, but development nonetheless. That a problem for you? Again, point taken.

 

"Outright bad?" Ah, so stagnation is a decline for you—at least in this case—then. I can definitely understand—in this case. But I still think "outright bad" is a bit much/harsh—"very disappointing," on the other hand? I would not consider that to be a bit much/harsh. (But there are probably those who'd use harsher words and say DC is already "outright bad," at the least)

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