[SPOILER DISCUSSION] File 948–950: The Clenched Scissors

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

 THIS THREAD is used to discuss about SPOILERS. In other words, if you only read the English version and wish to wait for the full release instead of getting spoiled, this is NOT the right place for you!

RULES OF THE SPOILER-ONLY DISCUSSION THREAD:

1. Any kind of spoiler involving the case (pictures, texts, information, full scans...) of any language that is released before the English version must be posted HERE. The English translations of the spoilers must also be posted here.

2. Any kind of discussion involving the spoilers must be posted HERE.

3. Despite being a spoiler-only thread, EVERY spoiler and discussion involving events that have not happened in the English releases STILL has to be put inside Spoiler boxes. When the file in question is fully released in English, this is not necessary anymore.

4. NO DIRECT LINK to any Japanese scans (RAWs) or English scans (Japanese spoiler pictures are allowed as long as the amount and quality of which are very far away from a full scan, like the ones we usually have).

HOW TO USE A SPOILER BOX?
 
Just simply type the following:

Text you want to write

Or more manually:

Step 1: Click the "Special BBCode" icon at the upper-left side of the edit toolbar.


Step 2: In BBCode, select "Spoiler".


Step 3: Enter the text that you want to put inside Spoiler boxes, then click OK.

File 948 Summary (Translated by bash7353, presumenothing and Spimer)

 

Conan and Haibara research Haneda Kouji's death at Agasa's place. On the same day and in the same hotel as Kouji, a wealthy person named Amanda died as well. At that time Amanda's bodyguard was suspected, but his whereabouts and identity were unknown. That means that 17 years ago the APTX4869 poison already existed. How old Ai is, Conan asks. Ai insists that she is 18.The drug was created by collecting what was left behind of her parents' research and reviving their work (that might mean that the research had been on the halt for some time until she started it again). And while it seems she made a different drug, but she fails to mention it here.

 

Returning to the case, they discover an image of a broken hand mirror. It was a cosmetics company's promotional article with 'PUT ON MASCARA' written on it, but only the letters 'P T ON' were left. In addition to a defence wound on Kouji's arm, there are traces of him tightly gripping scissors. When Conan says that, Agasa remembers anther case concerning scissors. At his own discretion Okiya comes by with meat and potato stew and suggests to go there together.

 

Okiya, who Ai is suspicious of, asks Camel, who is elsewhere, to be "her (Ai's?) bodyguard".

 

At the crime scene the body remained unchanged. Near it is a mop, despite the victim apparently having gripping scissors. Glass cups are lying around and there are blood stains belonging to the first discoverer. There were people holding a grudge against the victim which is why there are two bodyguards. A body search revealed that the first discoverer didn't have anything on them that could have been used as a weapon, at the time of the discovery the victim was already dead. Right now, the first discoverer's wounds are tended to by a policewoman.

 

When they confirm that the water tab had been left open, Okiya says that the case resembles one regarding Haneda Kouji.

 

■What is it that's concealed in the past Akai Shuuichi talks about?

 

My two cents:

 

So Koji died 17 years beforehand? That would make Shukichi 11. Just how long has he been in the Haneda family?

 

What if the drug Shiho/Ai made is the one that can shrink people, and APTX 4869 is invariably lethal?

[Serinox 127]

My two cents:

 

So Koji died 17 years beforehand? That would make Shukichi 11. Just how long has he been in the Haneda family?

 

What if the drug Shiho/Ai made is the one that can shrink people, and APTX 4869 is invariably lethal?

 

1. Considering he changed his name when he was 18: about ten years.

 

2. Ai says, she pocketed APTX 4869 and took it for her suicide attempt, but it shrank her. Do you think she accidentally pocketed a pill of her drug instead of the APTX? Wouldn't she be able to distinguish them? Additionally, Ai says that the drug she made is used as a poison, which wasn't the goal of her research and which is a usage she detests, so it seems like Ai was working on the APTX. Or do you mean she worked on both the APTX and "her" drug?

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

1. Considering he changed his name when he was 18: about ten years.

 

2. Ai says, she pocketed APTX 4869 and took it for her suicide attempt, but it shrank her. Do you think she accidentally pocketed a pill of her drug instead of the APTX? Wouldn't she be able to distinguish them? Additionally, Ai says that the drug she made is used as a poison, which wasn't the goal of her research and which is a usage she detests, so it seems like Ai was working on the APTX. Or do you mean she worked on both the APTX and "her" drug?

 

So he never met Koji, but merely heard of him, and became inspired by him that way?

 

Since she's never spoken about this other drug, and then didn't elaborate upon it when it came up—maybe she's lying about it. The APTX is clearly not what Gin forced down Shinichi's throat, since he refers to it as new (at the very least, he is ignorant that it had been used 17 years ago)—what if the drug Shiho/Ai made (not APTX 4869) that's first use was likely upon Shinichi was, in fact, a drug that would shrink those forced to ingest it. What if she was pretending to work on APTX 4689, while really making this new drug that wouldn't kill anyone, as was her parent's intention?

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

The drug back then used to Kill Kouji would have been Silver Bullet wouldn't it? I'm not surprised its also killing people like APTX if Shiho used it the base for her research. (She heavily implied it was killing most of her test mice, and the Org was using it to kill people too.) I've speculated that the two projects are the same, just by different names, one in the hands of the Miyano parents, one in the hands of Shiho, and that seems to be confirmed now. I have made more than a few posts about it and it's on the wiki under the speculation section for Silver Bullet and APTX. Conan would have naturally been surprised that it was being used 17 years ago and asked Ai about it because he doesn't know of Silver Bullet. He didn't listen to Haibara's tapes all the way through. ( I recall there is a thread at DCTP which talks about what Conan knows and doesn't to help keep track of what has been only been revealed to the reader through private thoughts.)
 
Also about the scissors and P T ON from PUT ON MASCARA it's extremely likely we are looking at a Japanese pun. Koji most likely didn't tightly grip the scissors for self defense but to make sure the mark of the scissors could not be removed from his body as it is part of the clue. By inserting a scissors related word, or something related to cut you can probably figure it out. The tap left on in the recent case is probably a cryptic pun clue in the same vein.
 
My guess is that Koji was a witness to a key part of Amanda's assassination and was silenced. We might get a lead on a Black Organization member in the past because of this case, especially if we can figure out if they came back to tamper with the crime scene.
 
 
---- The Akai family timeline so far

• Mr. Akai and Mrs. Sera are born and married. Mrs. Sera takes her husband's surname Akai.
•  ?? years ago: Shuichi Akai is born.
• 28 years ago: Shukichi Akai is born.
• 17 years ago: Koji Haneda is killed with APTX 4869 (most likely the Miyano parents' version Silver Bullet). Shukichi is 11.
• 16-17 years ago: Masumi Akai is born in Japan. At this time, the middle brother is approximately 11-12 and in junior high.
• Sometime after Masumi is conceived, her father dies. The time of the father's death is uncertain, but Masumi implies it affected the family names.
• >14-15 years ago: Masumi and Shukichi start using the family name Sera instead of Akai.
• 14-15 years ago: Shukichi enters high school with the family name Sera. Shukichi is 13-14 and Masumi is ~2.
• 11-12 years ago: Shukichi graduates high school and changes his family name from Sera to Haneda. Shukichi is age 16-17 and Masumi is 4-5. (Masumi says all three siblings have different family names. Masumi has "Sera", Shuichi has "Akai", and Shukichi has "Haneda".)
• 5-10 years ago: Shuichi sends Masumi Jeet Kune Do videos. (Masumi is 6-11 and in elementary school)
• 5 years ago: Shuichi starts infiltrating the Black Organization and dating Akemi Miyano. Shukichi is 22-23 and Masumi is 11.
• 3 years ago: Mrs. Akai and Masumi move to America, Masumi goes to middle school in America.
• 2 years ago: Shuichi is uncovered as an FBI agent and is ejected from the Black Organization.
• Current: Masumi comes back at the age of 16-17 to Japan. Shukichi has been living in Japan winning shogi awards.

[Serinox 127]

So he never met Koji, but merely heard of him, and became inspired by him that way?

That or he knew Koji, became friends with him, maybe Koji taught Shukichi his first lessons in Shogi, then Koji died and Shukichi was adopted by the Haneda parents seven years later, to secure an heir to the family name, since they might've been lacking one of those after Koji's death.

 

 

The drug back then used to Kill Kouji would have been Silver Bullet wouldn't it? I'm not surprised its also killing people like APTX if Shiho used it the base for her research. (She heavily implied it was killing most of her test mice, and the Org was using it to kill people too.) I've speculated that the two projects are the same, just by different names, one in the hands of the Miyano parents, one in the hands of Shiho, and that seems to be confirmed now. I have made more than a few posts about it and it's on the wiki under the speculation section for Silver Bullet and APTX. Conan would have naturally been surprised that it was being used 17 years ago and asked Ai about it because he doesn't know of Silver Bullet. He didn't listen to Haibara's tapes all the way through. ( I recall there is a thread at DCTP which talks about what Conan knows and doesn't to help keep track of what has been only been revealed to the reader through private thoughts.)

 

Also about the scissors and P T ON from PUT ON MASCARA it's extremely likely we are looking at a Japanese pun. Koji most likely didn't tightly grip the scissors for self defense but to make sure the mark of the scissors could not be removed from his body as it is part of the clue. By inserting a scissors related word, or something related to cut you can probably figure it out. The tap left on in the recent case is probably a cryptic pun clue in the same vein.

 

My guess is that Koji was a witness to a key part of Amanda's assassination and was silenced. We might get a lead on a Black Organization member in the past because of this case, especially if we can figure out if they came back to tamper with the crime scene.

 

 

---- The Akai family timeline so far

• Mr. Akai and Mrs. Sera are born and married. Mrs. Sera takes her husband's surname Akai.
•  ?? years ago: Shuichi Akai is born.
• 28 years ago: Shukichi Akai is born.
• 17 years ago: Koji Haneda is killed with APTX 4869 (most likely the Miyano parents' version Silver Bullet). Shukichi is 11.
• 16-17 years ago: Masumi Akai is born in Japan. At this time, the middle brother is approximately 11-12 and in junior high.
• Sometime after Masumi is conceived, her father dies. The time of the father's death is uncertain, but Masumi implies it affected the family names.
• >14-15 years ago: Masumi and Shukichi start using the family name Sera instead of Akai.
• 14-15 years ago: Shukichi enters high school with the family name Sera. Shukichi is 13-14 and Masumi is ~2.
• 11-12 years ago: Shukichi graduates high school and changes his family name from Sera to Haneda. Shukichi is age 16-17 and Masumi is 4-5. (Masumi says all three siblings have different family names. Masumi has "Sera", Shuichi has "Akai", and Shukichi has "Haneda".)
• 5-10 years ago: Shuichi sends Masumi Jeet Kune Do videos. (Masumi is 6-11 and in elementary school)
• 5 years ago: Shuichi starts infiltrating the Black Organization and dating Akemi Miyano. Shukichi is 22-23 and Masumi is 11.
• 3 years ago: Mrs. Akai and Masumi move to America, Masumi goes to middle school in America.
• 2 years ago: Shuichi is uncovered as an FBI agent and is ejected from the Black Organization.
• Current: Masumi comes back at the age of 16-17 to Japan. Shukichi has been living in Japan winning shogi awards.

 

Just a minor point in the timeline, but students are usually 18 when they graduate from high school in Japan, so that point should be 10-11 years ago, shouldn't it?

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

The drug back then used to Kill Kouji would have been Silver Bullet wouldn't it? I'm not surprised its also killing people like APTX if Shiho used it the base for her research. (She heavily implied it was killing most of her test mice, and the Org was using it to kill people too.) I've speculated that the two projects are the same, just by different names, one in the hands of the Miyano parents, one in the hands of Shiho, and that seems to be confirmed now. I have made more than a few posts about it and it's on the wiki under the speculation section for Silver Bullet and APTX. Conan would have naturally been surprised that it was being used 17 years ago and asked Ai about it because he doesn't know of Silver Bullet. He didn't listen to Haibara's tapes all the way through. ( I recall there is a thread at DCTP which talks about what Conan knows and doesn't to help keep track of what has been only been revealed to the reader through private thoughts.)

Also about the scissors and P T ON from PUT ON MASCARA it's extremely likely we are looking at a Japanese pun. Koji most likely didn't tightly grip the scissors for self defense but to make sure the mark of the scissors could not be removed from his body as it is part of the clue. By inserting a scissors related word, or something related to cut you can probably figure it out. The tap left on in the recent case is probably a cryptic pun clue in the same vein.

My guess is that Koji was a witness to a key part of Amanda's assassination and was silenced. We might get a lead on a Black Organization member in the past because of this case, especially if we can figure out if they came back to tamper with the crime scene.

I hadn't considered Silver Bullet… it should've been the first consideration.

Better put all the cutting verbs and sharp objects together and start plugging them in, then.

And the bodyguard was the one to carry it out? What about Amanda, herself? Who was she? Why was she silenced?

[Heliotropic 139]

This file was somewhat unexpected to me... I was hoping the Kouji name would lead to a follow up investigation right after, but Gosho has went off on a tangent lately... I'm quite excited for what may come out of this case, and nice to know we got some more information on the drug. 

 

Nice to see Akai back in the picture as well, but the cooking thing still kind of baffles me. Seems like a silly excuse... well, whatever, that's something rather petty to complain about at this point. Case looks like it'll be off to a great start.

[75aichan 49]

 

This file was somewhat unexpected to me... I was hoping the Kouji name would lead to a follow up investigation right after, but Gosho has went off on a tangent lately... I'm quite excited for what may come out of this case, and nice to know we got some more information on the drug. 

 

Nice to see Akai back in the picture as well, but the cooking thing still kind of baffles me. Seems like a silly excuse... well, whatever, that's something rather petty to complain about at this point. Case looks like it'll be off to a great start.

 

 

 

well don't forget Akai is still disguised as Okiya,in front of Haibara he can't really act as himself(and it seems like she's still suspicious of him)

But I agree he should change his excuse.

 

About the file I'm sad that Ai doesn't come to the crime scene with them,and that Camel is supposed to be her bodyguard...really Camel isn't the best choice considering how many times he ruined Akai's plans...

And I was expecting some Ai/Akai confrontation but I guess it's too soon...

[Serinox 127]

 

 

well don't forget Akai is still disguised as Okiya,in front of Haibara he can't really act as himself(and it seems like she's still suspicious of him)

But I agree he should change his excuse.

 

About the file I'm sad that Ai doesn't come to the crime scene with them,and that Camel is supposed to be her bodyguard...really Camel isn't the best choice considering how many times he ruined Akai's plans...

And I was expecting some Ai/Akai confrontation but I guess it's too soon...

 

It's not clear yet whether Ai will stay behind or not, the spoilers are not really clear on that. Camel could still be supposed to be her bodyguard while they are out there at the crime scene.

[Heliotropic 139]

File 948 Imgur

File 948 baidu:

 

Translations from presumenothing

p2: 17 years ago, Kouji, who held 4 shogi titles at the time, went to America for the chess competition. But on the day before the competition, he was attacked by someone unknown in his hotel room and died. The room was quite a mess, it appears that Kouji fought back, and his cause of death is unknown. Amanda Hughes, who was in the same hotel, died in another room on the same day, COD also unknown

p3: Amanda had been a big fan of Kouji and had interacted with him before. Amanda's bodyguard, whom she called "Asaka", disappeared since that day and was thus the prime suspect. "Asaka's" real identity is still unknown, and no one seems to know how Amanda ended up hiring him
 p3, cont: Haibara hasn't heard of Asaka, but she thinks the possibility of him having been an Org member is high

p3-4: Conan points out it's weird for Kouji's name to be 2 below his. Haibara says the person in charge of the data probably didn't arrange it by chronological order, but possibly by the victims' blood types instead. Conan asks Haibara how old she is, if the drug he was given existed 17 years ago. Haibara "That's rude, I've told you, haven't I? I'm 18..."

p4: Haibara says the drug may have been made by her parents, because she remade the drug by collecting the burned remains of the data. Her parents' research facility caught fire, which both destroyed the drug data and killed her parents, though she heard that it was an accident from others in the BO

 p4: Haibara's thought "But, what they truly wanted me to make..." "Was another drug..."

p4: Haibara speculates that Kouji was killed for coincidentally witnessing Amanda's murder, apparently Amanda had some sort of connections (? not sure what exactly) to the FBI and CIA. Fingerprints confirm that Amanda had been to Kouji's room, probably to have tea

p5: among the wreckage in the room is the broken mirror with P T ON, Haibara suggests that the PUT ON MASCARA, which a manufacturer had been printing on mirrors to sell with their mascara. Her sister also had one of those mirrors, which belonged to her mother

 p5-6: Haibara is disturbed by the messy state of the room, since the BO wouldn't have left it like that. In fact, Amanda's room had been made to look like nothing happened, as per their usual MO.

p6: the bathroom tap in Kouji's room was left running. Conan says someone seems to have been regularly uploading the case info online, as if asking for help to solve the mystery.

p7: Kouji's right hand bear marks of having tightly gripped the small scissors provided in the room, which reminds Agasa of a murder that happened this morning. The victim was gripping a pair of scissors Agasa invented, so Megure asked him to go to the scene

p8: Okiya (along with his extra nikujaga...) asks to go to the scene with them, saying that there's something about the case that attracted his notice.

p8: Okiya then says it's alright if Haibara doesn't go, since she can watch the house by herself. Haibara asks if he's leaving her to eat bad cooking alone
Okiya: Not at all..." "I'm just not good at cooking that dish, that's all..."

p9: Okiya calls Camel while leaving the house, requesting that he protect her

p11: victim is president of a real estate company, killed by blunt force trauma, and found holding one of Agasa's scissors

p12: the glass shards on the floor of the room have patterns and lettering on them, and seems to match another glass on the bathroom counter

p13-4: Conan notices blood on the glass shards near the doorway, but it turns out to be the first discoverer's blood.

p16: Okiya asks Takagi if the tap had been left running, and Takagi confirms it

p16: Okiya (thinking) "So it's as I expected..." Conan "Hey, Akai-san..." "This case... is there something wrong about it?" Okiya "You've noticed it too, haven't you, kid?" "It's far too similar..." "To the case where Haneda Kouji was killed... 17 years ago..." "The one that forced me to join the FBI..." "That case..."
NB the Chinese translator used 迫使 here, which is forced/coerced according to my dictionary

[Balthazar Manfredie 226]

thanks heliotropic, just what i was searching for 

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

 

This file was somewhat unexpected to me... I was hoping the Kouji name would lead to a follow up investigation right after, but Gosho has went off on a tangent lately... I'm quite excited for what may come out of this case, and nice to know we got some more information on the drug. 

 

 

These past 2 cases have been the biggest development in the Rum arc that hasn't been a lingering Bourbon arc question—2016 so far has been nothing but plot. The tangent you speak of has really been the Rum arc, in general, with all the Bourbon arc remnants that remain unanswered.

 

 

Camel is supposed to be her bodyguard...really Camel isn't the best choice considering how many times he ruined Akai's plans...

 

 

Shuichi is well aware of the point you bring up—what does it say about him that he continues to trust Andre?

 

You also have to take into consideration the dumbing down of the FBI besides Shuichi, after the Vermouth arc, considering Andre's most recent error.

 

File 948 Imgur

File 948 baidu:

 

Translations from presumenothing

p2: 17 years ago, Kouji, who held 4 shogi titles at the time, went to America for the chess competition. But on the day before the competition, he was attacked by someone unknown in his hotel room and died. The room was quite a mess, it appears that Kouji fought back, and his cause of death is unknown. Amanda Hughes, who was in the same hotel, died in another room on the same day, COD also unknown

p3: Amanda had been a big fan of Kouji and had interacted with him before. Amanda's bodyguard, whom she called "Asaka", disappeared since that day and was thus the prime suspect. "Asaka's" real identity is still unknown, and no one seems to know how Amanda ended up hiring him

 p3, cont: Haibara hasn't heard of Asaka, but she thinks the possibility of him having been an Org member is high

p3-4: Conan points out it's weird for Kouji's name to be 2 below his. Haibara says the person in charge of the data probably didn't arrange it by chronological order, but possibly by the victims' blood types instead. Conan asks Haibara how old she is, if the drug he was given existed 17 years ago. Haibara "That's rude, I've told you, haven't I? I'm 18..."

p4: Haibara says the drug may have been made by her parents, because she remade the drug by collecting the burned remains of the data. Her parents' research facility caught fire, which both destroyed the drug data and killed her parents, though she heard that it was an accident from others in the BO

 p4: Haibara's thought "But, what they truly wanted me to make..." "Was another drug..."

p4: Haibara speculates that Kouji was killed for coincidentally witnessing Amanda's murder, apparently Amanda had some sort of connections (? not sure what exactly) to the FBI and CIA. Fingerprints confirm that Amanda had been to Kouji's room, probably to have tea

p5: among the wreckage in the room is the broken mirror with P T ON, Haibara suggests that the PUT ON MASCARA, which a manufacturer had been printing on mirrors to sell with their mascara. Her sister also had one of those mirrors, which belonged to her mother

 p5-6: Haibara is disturbed by the messy state of the room, since the BO wouldn't have left it like that. In fact, Amanda's room had been made to look like nothing happened, as per their usual MO.

p6: the bathroom tap in Kouji's room was left running. Conan says someone seems to have been regularly uploading the case info online, as if asking for help to solve the mystery.

p7: Kouji's right hand bear marks of having tightly gripped the small scissors provided in the room, which reminds Agasa of a murder that happened this morning. The victim was gripping a pair of scissors Agasa invented, so Megure asked him to go to the scene

p8: Okiya (along with his extra nikujaga...) asks to go to the scene with them, saying that there's something about the case that attracted his notice.

p8: Okiya then says it's alright if Haibara doesn't go, since she can watch the house by herself. Haibara asks if he's leaving her to eat bad cooking alone

Okiya: Not at all..." "I'm just not good at cooking that dish, that's all..."

p9: Okiya calls Camel while leaving the house, requesting that he protect her

p11: victim is president of a real estate company, killed by blunt force trauma, and found holding one of Agasa's scissors

p12: the glass shards on the floor of the room have patterns and lettering on them, and seems to match another glass on the bathroom counter

p13-4: Conan notices blood on the glass shards near the doorway, but it turns out to be the first discoverer's blood.

p16: Okiya asks Takagi if the tap had been left running, and Takagi confirms it

p16: Okiya (thinking) "So it's as I expected..." Conan "Hey, Akai-san..." "This case... is there something wrong about it?" Okiya "You've noticed it too, haven't you, kid?" "It's far too similar..." "To the case where Haneda Kouji was killed... 17 years ago..." "The one that forced me to join the FBI..." "That case..."

NB the Chinese translator used 迫使 here, which is forced/coerced according to my dictionary

 

Question is, when are we getting the 17-years-ago flashback case? Next case, or two-three+ cases from now? Probably the latter, but one can never know. Seems like Shuichi wouldn't have joined the FBI if it weren't for the events of that night, nearly two decades prior.

 

Since Andre is in play, something may happen between him and Shiho/Ai—something that will bring her closer to her confrontation with Shuichi/Subaru.

 

Shiho/Ai must be referring to Silver Bullet on page 4—her parents wanted her to make that "dream drug" of theirs.

[Serinox 127]

Shuichi is well aware of the point you bring up—what does it say about him that he continues to trust Andre?

That Andre is the only FBI agent that both knows Shuichi's secret identity and can be commandeered by Shuichi?

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

That Andre is the only FBI agent that both knows Shuichi's secret identity and can be commandeered by Shuichi?

 

Jodie?

[Serinox 127]

Jodie?

Sure, she knows his identity, but she wouldn't follow Akai's orders without questions, unlike Camel, who pretty much acts like an obedient goon to Akai.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Shiho/Ai must be referring to Silver Bullet on page 4—her parents wanted her to make that "dream drug" of theirs.

 

P4: Haibara says the drug may have been made by her parents, because she remade the drug by collecting the burned remains of the data. Her parents' research facility caught fire, which both destroyed the drug data and killed her parents, though she heard that it was an accident from others in the BO

P4: Haibara's thought "But, what they truly wanted me to make..." "Was another drug..."

Eh? I came to the opposite conclusion. Shiho must have been working on her parent's drug, Silver Bullet/APTX 4869, because her work was based on her parents' drug data which she collected from the ashes of the fire (new info <3). Shiho described her effort as "remaking"; however, the higher ups wanted her to work on another drug instead of her parents' creation. Which implies another drug beyond APTX/Silver Bullet exists. We have had hints about this, such as Haibara's comment that Kudo is part of a project that is over 50 years old when the Miyano parents only came on board 30 years ago. This other drug might explain Vermouth's aging problem for instance.

The newest info creates problems for the Vermouth took Silver Bullet theory, much like the same ones that undermine the APTX version of the argument. Like APTX, the fact that Silver Bullet was also used for killing throws doubt on the theory that Vermouth willingly used the Miyano parents' Silver Bullet to achieve her current state. Unless it was forced on her or she was feeling suicidal, why would Vermouth take a death drug? And also, since Aptx4869 is a remaking of her parents' project, why would the BO not suspect Silver Bullet/APTX 4869 could cause de-aging/age-stopping if it happened to Vermouth already?

Shiho, won't you regret what you are about to do? If so, I'm totally on your side! Well, it will be you nineteenth birthday next time. Bye-bye, honey. Oh yes, maybe it's about time I told you... The truth is, your mom is making a truly terrifying drug at the moment. My lab mates are getting really excited about it, they say it's like a dream drug. Your dad and I are putting all our hopes on it and calling it the Silver Bullet! But in order to complete the drug, your dad and I will have to leave you and your sister. Please understand, Shiho.

[Uncle Sporkums 123]

Well, at least we have an idea how the Miyanos died, but in my opinion, Gosho's background scenario is becoming really inconsistent, due to him shoehorning in all this contrived (again, mo) "families are related" BS.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

So, something that's been bothering me... not very spoilery so forget the tags, less work when I remove them all later

Conan (roughly) says: "Why is Kouji's name two below mine on the list?"

Haibara (roughly) says: "The person in charge of the data probably didn't arrange it by chronological order, but possibly by the victims' blood types instead."

And I say: "Hold on, Conan. The only place that list has been shown is in Haibara's head. Haibara didn't bring any documents with her when she shrank, the Night Baron virus destroyed one drug data disk, and Haibara hid the second one. You didn't know about Haneda's name being on the list one chapter before which means Haibara hadn't shown you a list copy. So how exactly do you know about the precise order of names on this list?"

Did Haibara tell Conan that she memorized that entire list in order, and gave Conan a copy between 947 and 948? Or did Conan know a data disk survived, snuck a peek, and then didn't notice he said something revealing?

[Serinox 127]

So, something that's been bothering me... not very spoilery so forget the tags, less work when I remove them all later

Conan (roughly) says: "Why is Kouji's name two below mine on the list?"

Haibara (roughly) says: "The person in charge of the data probably didn't arrange it by chronological order, but possibly by the victims' blood types instead."

And I say: "Hold on, Conan. The only place that list has been shown is in Haibara's head. Haibara didn't bring any documents with her when she shrank, the Night Baron virus destroyed one drug data disk, and Haibara hid the second one. You didn't know about Haneda's name being on the list one chapter before which means Haibara hadn't shown you a list copy. So how exactly do you know about the precise order of names on this list?"

Did Haibara tell Conan that she memorized that entire list in order, and gave Conan a copy between 947 and 948? Or did Conan know a data disk survived, snuck a peek, and then didn't notice he said something revealing?

Well, Haibara told Conan exactly what he asks in this chapter: Kouji's name was two below yours on the APTX victim list, which of course must seem odd to him in this chapter, since Kouji died when Shinichi wasn't even born yet.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

 

P4: Haibara says the drug may have been made by her parents, because she remade the drug by collecting the burned remains of the data. Her parents' research facility caught fire, which both destroyed the drug data and killed her parents, though she heard that it was an accident from others in the BO

P4: Haibara's thought "But, what they truly wanted me to make..." "Was another drug..."

Eh? I came to the opposite conclusion. Shiho must have been working on her parent's drug, Silver Bullet/APTX 4869, because her work was based on her parents' drug data which she collected from the ashes of the fire (new info <3). Shiho described her effort as "remaking"; however, the higher ups wanted her to work on another drug instead of her parents' creation. Which implies another drug beyond APTX/Silver Bullet exists. We have had hints about this, such as Haibara's comment that Kudo is part of a project that is over 50 years old when the Miyano parents only came on board 30 years ago. This other drug might explain Vermouth's aging problem for instance.

The newest info creates problems for the Vermouth took Silver Bullet theory, much like the same ones that undermine the APTX version of the argument. Like APTX, the fact that Silver Bullet was also used for killing throws doubt on the theory that Vermouth willingly used the Miyano parents' Silver Bullet to achieve her current state. Unless it was forced on her or she was feeling suicidal, why would Vermouth take a death drug? And also, since Aptx4869 is a remaking of her parents' project, why would the BO not suspect Silver Bullet/APTX 4869 could cause de-aging/age-stopping if it happened to Vermouth already?

Shiho, won't you regret what you are about to do? If so, I'm totally on your side! Well, it will be you nineteenth birthday next time. Bye-bye, honey. Oh yes, maybe it's about time I told you... The truth is, your mom is making a truly terrifying drug at the moment. My lab mates are getting really excited about it, they say it's like a dream drug. Your dad and I are putting all our hopes on it and calling it the Silver Bullet! But in order to complete the drug, your dad and I will have to leave you and your sister. Please understand, Shiho.

 

Oh—when she thought, "they," she meant the BO, rather than her parents.

 

Sure, she knows his identity, but she wouldn't follow Akai's orders without questions, unlike Camel, who pretty much acts like an obedient goon to Akai.

 

That's a pretty harsh word to use. Isn't Vodka better suited to it?

 

But, in spite of past mistakes, Shuichi chooses to trust Andre with this responsibility—that was my point.

[Aries Bless 18]

Well, there could be two theories about this, if Koji Haneda wasn't killed by the drug that Haibara had created.

 

1 - Maybe the list wasn't really a list of only the people who died of APTX 4869, but of all people who were killed by poison used by BO, and Haibara just got it mixed up with the real 'APTX 4869-victim' list.

2 - Or maybe the Haneda Koji, who Shukichi knew, and the Haneda Koji on the list are not the same people. I have heard the Gosho Aoyama had mention a red herring in volume 18.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

Huh? Where did the suggestion that Koji wasn't killed by APTX 4869 come from?

 

The cause of death, described by the articles Shinichi/Conan was reading, seemed to be unknown—that's consistent with APTX 4869 fulfilling its assassination purpose.

 

And I don't think that someone as meticulous and smart as Shiho/Ai would mix up lists.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Oh—when she thought, "they," she meant the BO, rather than her parents.

That's an interesting interpretation! I think it would be unwise to rule out the possibility that her parents may have had plans for Shiho, since they left her alive in the hands of the Organization.

 

Huh? Where did the suggestion that Koji wasn't killed by APTX 4869 come from?

The cause of death, described by the articles Shinichi/Conan was reading, seemed to be unknown—that's consistent with APTX 4869 fulfilling its assassination purpose.

And I don't think that someone as meticulous and smart as Shiho/Ai would mix up lists.

I think the theory comes from the fact that Shiho's APTX 4869 was not in existence yet. So it must have been her parents' creation which makes things a bit more muddy. Was there project called APTX 4869 too? The same as or different than Silver Bullet?

 

Well, Haibara told Conan exactly what he asks in this chapter: Kouji's name was two below yours on the APTX victim list, which of course must seem odd to him in this chapter, since Kouji died when Shinichi wasn't even born yet.

So Haibara really did memorize that whole list in order.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

That's an interesting interpretation! I think it would be unwise to rule out the possibility that her parents may have had plans for Shiho, since they left her alive in the hands of the Organization.

 

I'm unsure of whether she meant her parents or the BO—either way, it may mean that there's another drug in play, beyond Silver Bullet and APTX 4869.

[Maltavite 61]

That's a pretty harsh word to use. Isn't Vodka better suited to it?

 

But, in spite of past mistakes, Shuichi chooses to trust Andre with this responsibility—that was my point.

Vodka has better memories than Gin. Probably the Miyanos knew the side effect of Silver Bullet/APTX-4869 but decided to hide it.

 

I'm unsure of whether she meant her parents or the BO—either way, it may mean that there's another drug in play, beyond Silver Bullet and APTX 4869.

I think that's possible BO developed another drug, maybe because the APTX has rare side effect (de-aging) or the main key within the projects deceased and they cannot resumed it. The former is out of point because only Vermouth knows the side-effect of APTX.