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Chekhov MacGuffin

Suspicious characters! Discussion about Hyoue Kuroda, Wakasa Rumi, and others.

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  On 7/30/2016 at 5:47 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I felt we needed a thread for discussion of suspicious and recurring arc characters like Hyoue Kuroda, Wakasa Rumi, Sakurako Yonehara and others so we have a place to talk about them outside of their intro chapters and the Rum thread. I figured there might be more continuous discussion if I lumped all the suspicious arc characters into one thread rather than give each one a separate thread. Secret spies? Enemies of the Organization? Hidden backstories? False identities? Awesome? Stupid? Please post theories and comments about these characters here!

 

well.. i think that new detective who appeared in chapter 975 is the most suspicious so far .. what was his name ??

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  On 10/15/2016 at 8:27 PM, nony elhussien said:

well.. i think that new detective who appeared in chapter 975 is the most suspicious so far .. what was his name ??

Wakita Kanenori...

 

  On 10/13/2016 at 6:30 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Wakita Kanenori

 

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  On 10/13/2016 at 6:30 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Gosho might be implying that Wakita, who represents the "Darkest Nightmare" horse (that races with "Pirate's Spirit"(Rum))

This is a little mistake. Darkest Nightmare and Pirate's Spirit have competed in different races and they both won theirs respectively. (Ofc this could have other implications if Gosho wants to tell us something with the two horse names)

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  On 10/15/2016 at 9:50 PM, Serinox said:

This is a little mistake. Darkest Nightmare and Pirate's Spirit have competed in different races and they both won theirs respectively. (Ofc this could have other implications if Gosho wants to tell us something with the two horse names)

Ahh, I see, thanks for the correction.

...it doesn't change much nonetheless...

This whole theory is just a stretch based on minor implications from one chapter. It's mostly wishful thinking, since I don't want another Amuro character who's willing to put a person into the hospital for his own ploy, when he is susposed to be a good guy. That car "accident", definitely doesn't sound like an accident, so I much rather see Wakita as a bad guy(BO) than a crazy agent/civilian.

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  On 10/16/2016 at 1:17 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

I don't want another Amuro character who's willing to put a person into the hospital for his own ploy, when he is susposed to be a good guy.

 

That's Shinichi's/Conan's assumption. We'll never know—since she ended up in the hospital for a different reason—if he would've actually done it.

 

A better example to make your point is him standing in the middle of a crowd of civilians (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581), disguised as a BO target, and deliberately trying to screw with the sniper (especially when that sniper is Chianti). That's a huge no-no for an NPA Officer/Agent—you can't endanger the public like that for a personal vendetta (especially when the only reason it happened is because you made it happen (File 677–File 679/Episode 563–Episode 564)). 

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  On 10/17/2016 at 12:39 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

That's Shinichi's/Conan's assumption. We'll never know—since she ended up in the hospital for a different reason—if he would've actually done it.

 

A better example to make your point is him standing in the middle of a crowd of civilians (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581), disguised as a BO target, and deliberately trying to screw with the sniper (especially when that sniper is Chianti). That's a huge no-no for an NPA Officer/Agent—you can't endanger the public like that for a personal vendetta (especially when the only reason it happened is because you made it happen (File 677–File 679/Episode 563–Episode 564)). 

I was trying to correlate the writing similarity of Wakita's character, since it's almost indicated that Wakita might have put someone in the hospital as well in order to take the victim's place in the restaurant.

 

Either way, considering that Bourbon has a track-record of being willing to do questionable things(like physically assaulting someone he's planning to protect), I don't see why Conan's assumption could be wrong. It's not like everything was conveniently put in place for his plan to work after Natsuko's incident(that lead to Scarlet).

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  On 10/17/2016 at 4:45 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

Bourbon has a track-record of being willing to do questionable things

 

I completely agree (as long, of course, as the condition, "when Shuichi is involved," is added).

 

  On 10/17/2016 at 4:45 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

I was trying to correlate the writing similarity of Wakita's character, since it's almost indicated that Wakita might have put someone in the hospital as well in order to take the victim's place in the restaurant.

 

Completely agree—whether he's Rum or another BO codenamed member, that was no accident that put the one Kanenori replaced in the hospital.

 

  On 10/17/2016 at 4:45 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

I don't see why Conan's assumption could be wrong.

 

Because he made it just after Rei/Toru told him, "You've got the wrong idea about me," and because this assumption of his was made before he and Shuichi were somehow able to use "Zero" to get ahold of Bourbon's real name. In other words, Shinichi/Conan wasn't thinking that he was dealing with a vengeful NPA Security Bureau Agent—when he made that assumption, he thought he was dealing with a BO agent who could expose the fake death plan.

 

Until Rei's/Toru's actions (i.e., risking civilians getting sniped) are discussed with him by Shinichi/Conan and or Shuichi (in, say, their next encounter, the follow up to A Song Called "Asaka" (File 954–File 957)), we won't know if he was really going to run over Natsuko Shibuya and risk killing her.

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  On 10/17/2016 at 11:40 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

I completely agree (as long, of course, as the condition, "when Shuichi is involved," is added).

Shuichi wasn't involved, until the last minute, when Rei was gonna "save" sherry by forcing her to go with him, through violence...

Also, although we can't know for sure, in his introduction, he should have already solved the case with the knowledge that he had, and since he was the one that dropped the cake that Banba stepped on, he should have already known that Banba was about to lose his only evidence to his alibi, yet he was willing to risk a civilian's innocence to test Kogoro's abilities...

That childhood flashback indicated that he was pretty aggressive as a child too..

 

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Because he made it just after Rei/Toru told him, "You've got the wrong idea about me," and because this assumption of his was made before he and Shuichi were somehow able to use "Zero" to get ahold of Bourbon's real name. In other words, Shinichi/Conan wasn't thinking that he was dealing with a vengeful NPA Security Bureau Agent—when he made that assumption, he thought he was dealing with a BO agent who could expose the fake death plan.

Fair point. Ofc, it's still a possibility, since he couldn't have done something "nicer" to her while Vermouth is beside him. I don't see how Vermouth being disguised as Natsuko/Jodie could've helped either at that point...

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  On 10/18/2016 at 6:25 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

Rei was gonna "save" sherry by forcing her to go with him, through violence...

 

It's not like he could just tell her, "Hey, I'm NPA Security Bureau!" After all, Vermouth had bugged the area near the rear so she'd know when to detonate the explosives at the right time, so the train wouldn't derail.

 

I'd say Shuichi/Subaru scaring her was more "huh?" worthy than Rei's/Toru's/Bourbon's actions (after all, it's "huh?" worthy to some that Gosho was keeping up with his trend of making sure that Shiho/Ai and Shuichi/Subaru can't really meet and talk).

 

  On 10/18/2016 at 6:25 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

Also, although we can't know for sure, in his introduction, he should have already solved the case with the knowledge that he had, and since he was the one that dropped the cake that Banba stepped on, he should have already known that Banba was about to lose his only evidence to his alibi, yet he was willing to risk a civilian's innocence to test Kogoro's abilities...

 

Trouble is, we don't know if he was an instant away from beginning his deduction before Shinichi/Conan stepped in. As with Natsuko, the point is moot, because the choice was made for him before he could actually make the choice, himself.

 

  On 10/18/2016 at 6:25 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

That childhood flashback indicated that he was pretty aggressive as a child too..

 

It seems likely to me that Rei was sent to infiltrate the police for the BO, but Wataru Date and Scotch turned him into a police spy inside the BO. So, in spite of being on the side of the law, he'd still have some BO tendencies (like Shiho/Ai saying, "There's no point in sacrificing your life for the sake of people you don't even know").

 

Ultimately, he's nowhere near the level of Gin or Chianti, or even Vodka. As a NOC, there'll be times where he'll have to undertake questionable-at-best things, but, overall, he's still a better person than the real BO members, even the ones like Vermouth, Irish and Curaçao.

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  2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

It seems likely to me that Rei was sent to infiltrate the police for the BO, but Wataru Date and Scotch turned him into a police spy inside the BO. So, in spite of being on the side of the law, he'd still have some BO tendencies (like Shiho/Ai saying, "There's no point in sacrificing your life for the sake of people you don't even know").

I'm honestly leaning more towards one of his parents being a research mate of the Miyanos. His main drive to take down the BO has got to be something more personal to him, and from the vague implications of his britishness, I'm seeing the possibility that we will eventually find out more about his parents(which in turn should serve a purpose in the plot). Also, that "Furuya Masa'aki" reading of the name in the guestbook gives me the Kouji vibe.

Both our guesses could be true as well, but I think that he got his british influence after moving to the UK, directly after the Miyano accident(his parent's death), and then eventually moved back and joined the police academy of his own free will.

 

  2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Ultimately, he's nowhere near the level of Gin or Chianti, or even Vodka. As a NOC, there'll be times where he'll have to undertake questionable-at-best things, but, overall, he's still a better person than the real BO members, even the ones like Vermouth, Irish and Curaçao.

That goes without saying...

 

This whole topic started from the discussion regarding how far Rei was willing to go for his own ambition, even at the cost of abandoning his work ethics(for whatever reason), and of the absurdity that Gosho could potentially write himself another character with similar tendencies, who could also end up being on the good side too.

 

I can definitely see past Bourbon's level of "bad deeds" since it overall didn't lead to any casualties(and some of the potential "bad deeds" are questionable, like our discussion ascertained), but something as straightforward as orchestrating a car accident, that could potentially have lead to death(if that wasn't the aim to begin with), can't be excused to Bourbon's level. If Wakita was behind that incident, then I can't see him as something else besides a bad guy(BO).

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  On 10/19/2016 at 6:08 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

I'm honestly leaning more towards one of his parents being a research mate of the Miyanos. His main drive to take down the BO has got to be something more personal to him, and from the vague implications of his britishness, I'm seeing the possibility that we will eventually find out more about his parents(which in turn should serve a purpose in the plot). Also, that "Furuya Masa'aki" reading of the name in the guestbook gives me the Kouji vibe.

Both our guesses could be true as well, but I think that he got his british influence after moving to the UK, directly after the Miyano accident(his parent's death), and then eventually moved back and joined the police academy of his own free will.

 

Even so, the BO probably wanted him to infiltrate the police.

 

As for a possible British connection or not—I'm fine, either way.

 

  On 10/19/2016 at 6:08 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

Rei was willing to go for his own ambition, even at the cost of abandoning his work ethics(for whatever reason)

 

You mean his vendetta against Shuichi over Scotch's death? Practically everything he did during his arc was related to Shuichi, and his grudge against him. That grudge is literally the only reason he walked in a crowd of civilians while being targeted by a sniper and (possibly/potentially) planned to run a civilian down.

 

Without that grudge, there'd be no Bank Heist Case (File 677–File 679/Episode 563–Episode 564), no Silent Clash (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581), no Scarlet Prologue (File 891–File 893/Episode 779–Episode 780), and no Scarlet Showdown (File 894–File 898/Episode 781–Episode 783). The Bourbon arc would pretty much become about Mystery Train and the Akai Family—even to the point that Rei/Toru/Bourbon wouldn't really be the focus and driver of the arc.

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You mean his vendetta against Shuichi over Scotch's death? Practically everything he did during his arc was related to Shuichi, and his grudge against him. That grudge is literally the only reason he walked in a crowd of civilians while being targeted by a sniper and (possibly/potentially) planned to run a civilian down.

I left that part open because I was considering the possibility of his BO influence as a child...

his motive is obviously his revenge against Akai, but what I thought we were discussing was the next layer under that, his personality and possible influences(in his childhood) that could explain his aggressive and cold-hearted decisions.

 

 

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  On 10/19/2016 at 12:09 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

I left that part open because I was considering the possibility of his BO influence as a child...

his personality and possible influences(in his childhood) that could explain his aggressive and cold-hearted decisions.

 

Probably a similar extent to Shiho/Ai, but the reason these decisions become prominent are due to his obvious motive—otherwise, he'd just be slightly more aggressive/cold-hearted than than your average NOC.

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After reading File 977, I'm seriously confused with Gosho’s implications...

 

The first impression I got was that Wakita is a BO member who looks down on Rum:

Wakita - "Pirate's Spirit is such a weak horse..."

 

And now, the second impression I'm getting is that Wakita is actually Rum:

Suspect - "Today is the episode where second-in-command of the boss appears"

 

I can't tell if it's all just random easter eggs, a red-herring, or if Wakita is actually Rum and he's very self-conscious and underestimates his abilities...  :/

 

Like Conan pointed out, the disciple-thingy is getting old. Are we gonna have a clash between Amuro and Wakita now? (Amuro has to uphold his disciple-act after all :P)

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  On 10/27/2016 at 11:07 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

And now, the second impression I'm getting is that Wakita is actually Rum:

Suspect - "Today is the episode where second-in-command of the boss appears"

 

This screams trolling by Gosho. Seriously, "the second-in-command of the boss appears?" That's a sledgehammer to the face of even those who are unversed in DC mysteries. Between Kanenori and Hyoue, the red herring levels are off the charts.

 

Your first impression is more likely to be correct—Gosho typically finds a purpose for his red herring characters, so it's doubtful that Kanenori's just a wandering chef, and nothing else. He's, in all probability, not Rum, either (if he is, then we're retreading the Bourbon arc... people definitely won't be happy 'bout that). Thus, he's probably a BO member who has a relationship with Rum similar to Chianti's relationship with Vermouth.

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  On 10/28/2016 at 10:27 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

This screams trolling by Gosho. Seriously, "the second-in-command of the boss appears?" That's a sledgehammer to the face of even those who are unversed in DC mysteries. Between Kanenori and Hyoue, the red herring levels are off the charts.

 

Your first impression is more likely to be correct—Gosho typically finds a purpose for his red herring characters, so it's doubtful that Kanenori's just a wandering chef, and nothing else. He's, in all probability, not Rum, either (if he is, then we're retreading the Bourbon arc... people definitely won't be happy 'bout that). Thus, he's probably a BO member who has a relationship with Rum similar to Chianti's relationship with Vermouth.

As much as I want to pass it off as a red-herring....I'm gonna stay neutral on this matter and simply say that he is a BO member(since we had enough indirect hints from Gosho that Wakita is most likely BO related), without completely dismissing the possibility that he could be Rum. I'm still obviously leaning more towards(and prefer) Wakita being a member with some antipathy between him and Rum...but it's really hard to say. Not that it's confirmed yet, but I still think that Rumi is a very obvious Asaka suspect too, and it does seem to me like she will end up being Asaka as well.

 

EDIT: Since the actual translation is "Close associate of the boss", rather than "second-in-command", Wakita could still be another BO member, who sees Rum as weak and that the boss still bets on him(according to the "Pirate's spirit" comment) and who is a close associate to the boss(according to the Yaiba comment), which is Gosho's way of creating a red-herring by playing with the truth rather than outright lie.

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Before anything else, Sorry for the double post(although the former post is old by now)...

 

So, I'll be doing a series of individual post for each Rum arc character and plot in which I go through everything worth noting about them and summarize my thoughts on it.

 

 

Rum Arc Discussion Series: Wakita Kanenori

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita.png

 

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  On 10/28/2016 at 11:17 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Since the actual translation is "Close associate of the boss", rather than "second-in-command", Wakita could still be another BO member, who sees Rum as weak and that the boss still bets on him(according to the "Pirate's spirit" comment) and who is a close associate to the boss(according to the Yaiba comment), which is Gosho's way of creating a red-herring by playing with the truth rather than outright lie.

 

Yeah, it isn't Gosho's style to straight up lie to our faces—he, rather, tries to utilize techniques like misdirection.

 

  On 1/11/2017 at 2:41 PM, MeiTanteixX said:

Before anything else, Sorry for the double post(although the former post is old by now)...

 

So, I'll be doing a series of individual post for each Rum arc character and plot in which I go through everything worth noting about them and summarize my thoughts on it.

 

Rum Arc Discussion Series: Wakita Kanenori

 

Rum+Arc+Character+-+Wakita.png

 

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Totally agree.

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Rum Arc Discussion Series: Wakasa Rumi 

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  On 1/22/2017 at 2:12 PM, MeiTanteixX said:
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  On 1/22/2017 at 11:27 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

If Rumi is Vermouth, then who's uploading the info about the case?... and who, then, is Asaka, if Rumi's not?


About her investigating Shuichi/Subaru—if her mentioning whiskey is a reference to him, then does she suspect that Subaru Okiya is actually Rye? Is she going to find out, and what is she going to do with that info if she does? Get Hidemi/Rena/Kir executed?

Then there's her actually showing up during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" (954–957), at all—if she's really smart enough to be hinting Shinichi/Conan as Rumi, then surely she's smart enough to realize that Rei/Toru/Bourbon is a NOC (or, at least, suspect him to be one to the degree that Shuichi did, when he was in the Organization as Dai/Rye). Therefore, she wouldn't show up during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" because she'd know that he was a NOC, and, therefore, wouldn't hurt Ran and Shinichi/Conan.


Even though Shinichi/Conan wouldn't be her primary objective, if she's Rumi, what would she do if she finds out he is looking into that case?

Don't get me wrong, your theory on how Rumi could be Vermouth is interesting... but it's not my first choice as to who Rumi is. I will keep it in mind, though.

 

If Rumi is Vermouth, then Asaka would obviously be someone else. Who Asaka is would be a topic for later, since Rumi hasn't even been dismissed yet, but we could still get more suspects(not that it's likely), and Rum has obviously not been dismissed yet either.

 

If it's Gosho's hint to us fans that "Whisky"/Rye is her objective, then she is most likely suspecting him to be Rye, since she's aware of Bourbon's hate for Rye, and he showed anger while staring at Subaru, which I would assume is rare to Vermouth(since he always acts arrogant and confident around her). What she does after is heavily influenced on how risky it would be for Conan.

 

There's really no correlation between how clever Vermouth is at hinting to Conan and how good Rei plays his Bourbon role. They're two independent variables. Scotch most likely factored into why Akai got suspicious of Bourbon, since Scotch's death affected Bourbon's behavior towards Akai way more than he anticipated(which ended up making his tie to the dead spy more suspicious).

 

Depends on what consequences she is worried about. She obviously doesn't want him to keep digging to the point that the BO notices, like they "did" with Kogoro.

 

Happy to know that, but as you can see, I'm torn about this. The simpler way to put this is:

- if Asaka is Rum, Rumi is Vermouth.

- If Asaka is a woman, Rumi is Asaka.

But this thinking-style doesn’t satisfy me either, since Asaka could still be someone Rumi-equivalent(or a man), while Rumi is Vermouth. So until Rumi meets Ran or visits the professor, I'm gonna stand comfortably in the middle and equally weigh both options.

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  On 1/23/2017 at 12:19 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

If it's Gosho's hint to us fans that "Whisky"/Rye is her objective, then she is most likely suspecting him to be Rye, since she's aware of Bourbon's hate for Rye, and he showed anger while staring at Subaru, which I would assume is rare to Vermouth(since he always acts arrogant and confident around her). What she does after is heavily influenced on how risky it would be for Conan.

I think she'd probably focus on getting Hidemi/Rena/Kir exposed and killed—especially considering she already suspected her of being a NOC—after all, the reason Shuichi faked his death was so that she could keep her cover. If she dies, then their plan goes up in smoke (that is, unless she would be able to get out big info to them before she died). No need to bring the BO spotlight on Subaru Okiya, and risk those involved with him being caught in the crossfire.

 

  On 1/23/2017 at 12:19 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

There's really no correlation between how clever Vermouth is at hinting to Conan and how good Rei plays his Bourbon role. They're two independent variables. Scotch most likely factored into why Akai got suspicious of Bourbon, since Scotch's death affected Bourbon's behavior towards Akai way more than he anticipated (which ended up making his tie to the dead spy more suspicious).

But this is Vermouth we're talking about, here. Rei/Toru/Bourbon would have to be on her level, as an actor, to fool her completely, considering that they're frequent partners—and even then, just one slip up could prove very problematic.

 

If she's Rumi—and her deductive prowess is good enough to be able to hint Shinichi/Conan, of all people—her odds of realizing Bourbon's a NOC are higher, especially in tandem with her acting experience. I think her impromptu appearance during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" (954–957) decreased the odds that she currently knows that Rei/Toru/Bourbon is a NOC. Therefore, I think the odds of contradiction would be lower if Vermouth is not Rumi—it's more likely to me that she's not Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC, than she is Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC.

 

  On 1/23/2017 at 12:19 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

Asaka could still be someone Rumi-equivalent(or a man), while Rumi is Vermouth. So until Rumi meets Ran or visits the professor, I'm gonna stand comfortably in the middle and equally weigh both options.

Or Shuichi/Subaru.

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  On 1/25/2017 at 7:49 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

I think she'd probably focus on getting Hidemi/Rena/Kir exposed and killed—especially considering she already suspected her of being a NOC—after all, the reason Shuichi faked his death was so that she could keep her cover. If she dies, then their plan goes up in smoke (that is, unless she would be able to get out big info to them before she died). No need to bring the BO spotlight on Subaru Okiya, and risk those involved with him being caught in the crossfire.

 

But this is Vermouth we're talking about, here. Rei/Toru/Bourbon would have to be on her level, as an actor, to fool her completely, considering that they're frequent partners—and even then, just one slip up could prove very problematic.

 

If she's Rumi—and her deductive prowess is good enough to be able to hint Shinichi/Conan, of all people—her odds of realizing Bourbon's a NOC are higher, especially in tandem with her acting experience. I think her impromptu appearance during the Hado Rokumichi "murder" (954–957) decreased the odds that she currently knows that Rei/Toru/Bourbon is a NOC. Therefore, I think the odds of contradiction would be lower if Vermouth is not Rumi—it's more likely to me that she's not Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC, than she is Rumi and doesn't know that Bourbon is a NOC.

 

Or Shuichi/Subaru.

If she can kill Kir without getting backlash from the BO, then yeah, that would have to be her move. Otherwise, she would need to explain herself as to why she thought Kir was a spy. Maybe that's when her first reason for suspecting her could work in her favor(unless it's intuition or acting-experience-based).

 

Well, being an infiltrator, u do need to be able to act sufficiently, and with his intelligence and experience, I would assume that Bourbon knows what traps to avoid and what-not during conversations. But who knows...maybe Vermouth is already suspicious of him, but isn't certain enough to leave him be with her treasures.

 

But if she simply had time to investigate everything surrounding that skeleton, then maybe she simply had a time advantage over Conan. I get your reasoning though, and going by that estimated probability, she does have a lower chance of being Vermouth.

 

If she was Vermouth, I feel like that would be a big leap for him to orchestrate, but sure. :P

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  On 1/25/2017 at 8:06 AM, MeiTanteixX said:

...maybe Vermouth is already suspicious of him, but isn't certain enough to leave him be with her treasures.

Well, even if she were to find out he's a NOC (assuming she doesn't currently know that he is), she would have to be careful in taking action against him—after all, he said if he dies, her secret will get leaked (898/783).

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