MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted January 25, 2017 On 1/25/2017 at 9:25 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said: Well, even if she were to find out he's a NOC (assuming she doesn't currently know that he is), she would have to be careful in taking action against him—after all, he said if he dies, her secret will get leaked (898/783). Yeah. I have this strong gut-feeling he's bluffing though. It's a clever strategy because even if Vermouth caught on to that possibility, she definitely wouldn't wanna risk it by killing him anyway(since she's clearly afraid of its leakage). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted January 26, 2017 On 1/25/2017 at 9:35 PM, MeiTanteixX said: I have this strong gut-feeling he's bluffing though. It's a clever strategy because even if Vermouth caught on to that possibility, she definitely wouldn't wanna risk it by killing him anyway(since she's clearly afraid of its leakage). Yeah, because if she wasn't, she might've killed him right then and there (898/783). Her secret may very well, indeed, be about her relationship to the Boss/Anokata, but he may not know how they're related. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted February 1, 2017 Rum Arc Discussion Series: The Kohji Case Reveal hidden contents The Kohji case had a lot of scattered information. Although it's limited, we have gotten many clues that are worth discussing. As we know, The 17-year-old double-murder was done by the Black Organization. This was a cemented fact, the moment we found out that Kohji's name was written in the APTX list(the list of victims that were drugged by the organization's experimental drug)(File 947). Then, it was established that Rum(BO's current second-in-command) was the culprit, through Gin(File 953). The victims were Haneda Kohji and Amanda Hughes, and the prime suspect was Asaka. We also know that Akai Tsutomu was involved. In total, we have 5 important players in this case, and I'll be going though each one of them. Haneda Kohji Haneda Kohji was a shogi-player and had come to the US to participate in a chess competition. The day before the competition, he was killed in his hotel room. What we know from that "Kohji website"(which contained the details surrounding that case) is that he was visited by Amanda Hughes(a huge fan of his), before his death. The reason this was "assumed" was because her fingerprints were found on different places inside Kohji's room. Since her fingerprints were found on teacups, sofa and knife & forks, it is assumed that they were sitting on the sofa, drinking tea and eating snacks while having a chat(File 948). After Amanda left, he was later assaulted by Rum, the culprit of that case, and the defensive wounds in Kohji's arms, including the broken crockery and smashed cups, suggested that he was struggling against him until he was forced with the prototype drug(made by Sherry's parents). For an unknown reason however, Rum had fled the scene, before cleaning up the messy room in order to make it look like nothing happened(following the BO's M.O)(948). Because of this, Kohji was able to leave a dying message, by "cutting" out specific letters from a hand-mirror after putting it under hot water. This was assumed due to the fact that his hand had marks that suggested that he was gripping a pair of scissors very tightly, and that the sink in his room was left open, as well as that a hand-mirror with missing letters was found. The missing letters were "*U* ** MASCARA"(derived from "PUT ON MASCARA"). As we know, Conan's(and the rest of the cast's) interpretation of the dying message was that the removed letters "U MASCARA" was the message itself, and that it could be rearranged as "ASACA RUM", and could be seen as "Asaka is Rum". Whether this is the true interpretation or not, or whether the arrangement is even correct, is still a debate, but that it coincides with the names of two important players in this case is a hard fact. There are two incidents that needs attention. The first is Kohji's clearly highlighted meeting with Amanda, not long before his death, and the second is Rum's sudden escape from the crime scene. These two holes in the "Kohji website info" most likely plays a big role in the overall case development, since they are left vague by Gosho because he's planning on filling them in later on. Amanda's conversation with Kohji therefore carries a hidden development. Going by Haibara's assumption, Amanda was most likely Rum's target, and Kohji was most likely targeted by Rum because he was affiliated with her and had met her very recently(which, again follows the M.O of the BO, since they try to erase any potential leads to them). If Kohji wasn't directly connected to the BO, then there's no way for him to know about the BO members' code-name(as assumed by Conan). Considering that Rum left the scene right after his attack(second hole), there shouldn't have been a moment were his code-name could be heard by Kohji. If Conan's assumption is true, is it possible that Amanda's conversation with Kohji(first hole) played an important role in this scenario? Depending on Amanda's affiliation with the BO, she could have potentially shared information about the BO/Rum with Kohji. This does however raise the question of why she would go to Kohji(of all people), her favorite shogi player that happened to visit the US for a match, to share that dangerous information. From the knowledge that we currently have regarding Kohji's and Amanda's relationship, it does seem out of place and too unrealistic to be the case, which by extension makes the assumption that Kohji knew about the BO/Rum, as well as "ASACA RUM" interpretation, less likely. The second hole suggests an interference, or an urgent development, that forced Rum to leave the scene. This sudden development lead to Kohji being alone in the room, followed by him leaving the dying message. Assuming that Kohji didn't know about Rum/BO(in other words, "ASACA=RUM" is incorrect), it would mean that his message could have been mainly one of three things. The first possibility is a warning. If he for some reason had a suspicion about the killer's original target, or the next target, then his message could've served as a warning for that target(like in File 133). The second possibility is the identity of the culprit. Like the majority of all dying message, this message could have been revealing the culprit's identity, meaning that Kohji recognized Rum and knew his name(Examples:"karasuma"/"Sakamura"/"Masakura"[a sake name apparently btw]/etc.). In this case, it would mean that Rum is a famous figure, similar to Chris Vineyard(Vermouth). Since we know that Kohji was struggling against Rum, it wouldn't be strange if Rum lost his disguise(hat/cap/mask/etc) in the middle of it, and ended up revealing himself to Kohji. If Rum wasn't a known figure however, it's possible that Rum had distinguishable characteristics/features that Kohji was alluding to in his message(like scar/age-group/gender/symbol). The third possibility is a final word. From the very beginning, this could have been a message intended for a loved one, or someone else that he wanted to relay a final message to. It's also possible that the message had more than one meaning, but with the restrained time, it's unlikely. Overall, considering that he had alphabetic letters to work with, and since he's in the US, it's not a stretch to assume that the message can be read by non-japanese speakers, but it's also possible that the message relies on knowledge that he's the most comfortable with, like shogi and chess(interestingly enough, the numbers in chessboards fits with the number of letters in the message). Amanda Hughes Amanda Hughes was an old wealthy and influential person who was Kohji's fan. Just like with Kohji, she was killed by Rum. Although her name was never seen in the APTX list, her mysterious death suggests that she died from the prototype drug(which leaves no trace after being digested). According to Haibara, Amanda was most likely the organization's target, due to her powerful position in society, and she even had connections to the FBI & CIA(File 948). Before her death, as mentioned, she visited Kohji to chat about something. After the visit, she died after digesting the prototype drug. The fact that there was no indication of a struggle, and the that the room was left tidy, means that Rum successfully followed the BO's M.O, which by extension makes the fact that the Kohji crime scene was a mess even more suspicion. Somehow, Amanda got herself a bodyguard that she called "Asaka". The bodyguard Asaka disappeared directly after the murder, ultimately making him/her the prime suspect. Even close acquaintances of Amanda were clueless as to how she hired Asaka, meaning that it was done secretly for some reason(948). In Amanda's case, we can once again find another important hole in the information. The third hole is the mystery behind the way Amanda hired Asaka, and why. An influential person like Amanda hiring bodyguards(for no reason) is nothing uncommon, but the fact that it was hidden from her close relatives and acquaintances suggests that there was a hidden motive behind it. If she was aware of the BO's plans to assassinate her, then it would explain her secret activities. For her to be aware of it however, it would imply that she's connected to them in someway. Seeing as she's a wealthy woman, it's very likely that she was investing money to the BO(possibly for their research). The fact that she didn't seek help from her FBI/CIA contacts(as far as we know) suggests that she might have been avoiding them(possibly due her involvement with a criminal organization). The fact she might be aware that her life is in danger might be due to her doing something that she knows went against the BO's wishes. It could've also been a mistake on her part, that she knew was unforgivable. Another reason could be that she fell under their suspicion, due to her ties with the FBI/CIA being accidentally revealed, leading to the BO losing their trust on her(whether she was spying for them or not). So how did Amanda hire Asaka? Going by Conan's assumption("ASACA=RUM"), it would mean that she unknowingly secretly hired Rum, a BO member. But if her secrecy is due to the anticipated BO threat, then that would mean that she hired the "threat" himself to protect herself from it. That kind of mistake is very alerting, since you would assume that someone who's likely fearing for their life would be extra picky and careful with the people they hire. Also, if she really did that mistake, it would mean that Rum had all the time to kill her, before they arrived in the hotel, but not only did he let her live up to that point, but he also let her meet Kohji, which lead to him having to unnecessarily kill him afterwards(and ultimately make mistakes). Following this line of thought, it's very unlikely that Amanda hired/met Rum before she visited the hotel(assuming again, that "ASACA=RUM" is true). If this is the case, it also seems quite unlikely and unsafe for someone in her position to meet/hire someone, that she hasn't met before, in a public place like a hotel(especially if she was aware of the BO threat, hence her secret hiring). This makes the overall "ASACA=RUM" interpretation even more improbable. If we were to ignore Conan's assumption, then all these inconsistencies that we currently have disappears. This still leaves us with the question of how Asaka was hired. If we consider the the first hole in the "Kohji website info"(Amanda's meeting with Kohji), then it could potentially fill this third hole(Asaka's hiring). If Asaka was hired during Amanda's meeting with Kohji, then it could explain why the hiring was such a mystery to everyone close to her. What this would imply is that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard, who came with him to the US. As I addressed before, the likelihood that Amanda would reveal dangerous info about the BO to a shogi player, that she happens to admire, is very unlikely. It's not as unlikely however that she might have addressed general worries for her life during her chat with him. This could've ultimately lead to Kohji having his trusted bodyguard Asaka assigned to Amanda, as extra precaution, during her stay in the hotel(if not until the competition the next day), in order calm her nerves. Asaka As I mentioned in my Rumi discussion, there are certain contradictions about Asaka. To summarize it, if Asaka is Rum, then Asaka can't be a woman. The thing that suggested to Hotta, as well as Conan, that Asaka is female is the fact she was seen carrying a hand-mirror. That hand-mirror was most likely the same hand-mirror that Kohji used for his dying message. This is another clue that could help us shed some light to this Asaka mystery. When Agasa asked if it was Amanda's hand-mirror, Haibara mentioned that it's probably Kohji's and that it's normal for Shogi-players to care for their looks, but that it also might've been given to him by someone(File 948). This looked a lot like Gosho's way of alluding to the truth, like he usually does with Conan(when the last thing he points out after his previous points ends up being the correct one). Kohji being given the hand-mirror by someone is most likely the truth. What we also need to take into consideration however is that Asaka was at some point seen with a hand-mirror(File 953). Again, if we look at it through the "ASACA=RUM" mindset, it would imply that at some point, the hand-mirror went from Rum to Kohji(since Rum fled the scene before Kohji left the message with the hand-mirror, and since the room was never cleaned up, Rum likely never returned). The only possible way for that to happen is if he dropped his hand-mirror during his struggle with Kohji, but that still raises the question of why Rum carries a hand-mirror to begin with. It's not a rule that only females can carry it, but from Gosho's depiction of that plot-point, we are supposed to see gender-stereotypes as the norm. Taking this fact into consideration, including the implications that the hand-mirror was most likely given to Kohji, once again lessens the likelihood of "ASACA=RUM" interpretation to be true. If Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard however, it would explain why Asaka was seen with it and how it was given to Kohji. This would imply that Asaka is indeed a female bodyguard, who shared her hand-mirror with the person she's hired to protect, Kohji. If we were to follow this line of thought however, we come to the realization that even after Asaka was assigned to Amanda, by Kohji, Rum still managed to kill her. The tidiness of the room suggest that a mess wasn't created, or that he successfully cleaned after himself without interference. Right after killing Amanda, he went straight to Kohji's room, but what happened to Asaka? If there was never a mess in Amanda's room to begin with, then it's possible that his attack on her wasn't as straightforward as when he dealt with Kohji. Rum could've planned out the best strategy to poison her without having to directly force it into her. With this possibility in mind, it wouldn't be impossible for Rum to have overlooked Asaka(who he didn't expect to be in Amanda's room as she unknowingly digested the poison). How he directly dealt with Kohji, using force, indicates that Kohji's assassination was most likely an urgent last-minute-plan(after finding out about his meeting with Amanda). That's when the second hole comes into the picture(where Rum, for an unknown reason, suddenly flees from Kohji's room, after forcing him with the drug), and after Asaka realized that both of them were dead, she likely fled due to all of it looking like she did it(especially since she was in both of their rooms). If Rum directly attacked Amanda as well however, and then later cleaned up her room, it's also possible that he in fact did attack Asaka along with Amanda, and forced her with the drug, after finding out that she was Kohji's bodyguard(meaning that Kohji met Amanda). Although we have no clues to shrinking side-effects of the early prototypes made by Sherry's parents, it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the possibility that Asaka shrank, which in turn would explain her sudden disappearance after Kohji's and Amanda's death. Pisco's line about Sherry's prototype's shrinking effect suggests that her parents never got their research that far(File 242), but Pisco's knowledge could've easily been limited as well. Akai Tsutomu The first time Akai's father was mentioned was in File 949. Subaru revealed that his father was involved in Kohji's case and that his involvement was the reason he joined the FBI. When Conan asked if Tsutomu worked with the FBI, Subaru answered:"He wasn't FBI, but..." In this very case(FIle 948-950), there are two important groups that were name-dropped, the FBI & the CIA. These drops were most likely intentionally setup by Gosho for this very hint to be established. Akai Tsutomu was involved for a reason, and it was most likely connected to Amanda, who was targeted by the BO and had ties to both the FBI & CIA. The fact that Subaru left an ambiguous "but..."(as if an alternative answer was underway before he interrupted himself), right after denying that his father worked with the FBI, indicates that Tsutomu must be working with the other alternative, that was recently mentioned alongside the first alternative, the CIA. It's a clever story-telling tactic to hide the answer while at the same time leaving it right under the reader's nose. His involvement with a case that takes place in the US(even though his family lives in the UK) further indicates that his father was tied to the country in someway(which makes sense if he was a CIA-agent). Adding to the fact that Akai had an unknown source that possessed CIA intel(File 595) further hints towards this direction. His goal was most likely Amanda Hughes. It's possible that the CIA picked up on her suspicious activities that connected her to the BO(her possible investments for example). Whatever the reason was, it lead curious Tsutomu to the hotel. What we later find out is that Tsutomu disappeared after Kohji's and Amanda's death, similarly to Asaka. Mary reveals that he apparently sent a final message during his disappearance, warning his family that "he made enemies with really horrible people" and that they should flee to Japan and act like he's dead(File 972). This was followed by Akai, who thinks to himself about his father's body not being found. Tsutomu said that he had "made enemies" with some really "horrible people". This was clearly alluding to the BO, but what is interesting to note is that he said that "he made enemies". This is a clear indication that Tsutomu stood against the BO during his involvement in the Kohji case, meaning that he interfered with their activities, which lead to him becoming their target. This very situation that he got himself into coincides awfully well with the second hole in the "Kohji website info"(Rum's sudden escape from Kohji's room) and could potentially be the answer to it. The reason to why Rum couldn't follow the BO's M.O in Kohji's room and instead fled could be due to Tsutomu's interference. After finding Amanda's corpse, Tsutomu might've run straight to Kohji's room and encountered Rum, who had just forced Kohji with the drug. The fact that Akai was talking about "a dead body not being found", indicates that there were most likely signs of Tsutomu's potential death(but with no trace of a body). The usual signs of death is if blood is found in a crime scene. If Tsutomu's blood was in Kohji's room, then it's very likely that a fight took place between Rum and Tsutomu, ultimately leading towards Rum's escape and Tsutomu's disappearance(after realizing the trouble his family could get into). While Rum was distracted by Tsutomu, Kohji would have the little time that he needed to leave a message, as he's slowly dying by the drug(similarly to how Shinichi struggles before the shrinking-effect kicks in). This scenario would imply that Akai Tsutomu is still alive(if there's no future development that would suggest otherwise). Rum In this whole case exposition(File 948-954), the only hard facts we have regarding Rum and the BO is that Rum screwed up his job(File 953), and that the BO is aware of the dying message, and that it can be read as "ASACA RUM"(File 954). This very limited information doesn't tell us much about Rum, or if "ASACA=RUM" is true, but it does imply that Rum's mistake is connected to the second hole(Rum suddenly fleeing from the scene). Following my previous potential explanation to that hole, it's possible that Tsutomu was the cause to Rum's escape, which lead to all the mistakes that followed with it(The M.O not being fulfilled, Tsutomu not being dealt with and Kohji managing to leave a potentially-dangerous message). Now, taking Conan's assumption to consideration, the message would clearly pose a problem to the BO. But if we look at it from the second perspective(dismissing Conan's assumption), it would mean that another weight is added to Rum's mistake, Asaka. Her disappearance is clearly another problem that highlights Rum's mistake from 17 years ago, since the "Kohji website" keeps reminding them that one person, that was involved, managed to escape(whether Asaka was overlooked at the moment of the crime or not) and could pose a threat if they(Asaka) possess threatening information. Them investigating anything that involves "ASACA RUM"(the dying message) wouldn't be surprising, if Asaka is still being searched by them and that the message might be connected to her. The Kohji Website's uploader When Agasa was surprised by the amount of detail in the Kohji website, Conan revealed that the website was taken down multiple times, but the uploader kept putting it up continuously as if they were desperately seeking help(File 948). This was then followed by Agasa emphasizing the suspicious "minute detail" that the website had regarding that case. This was clearly Gosho's way to hint us that the uploader was someone that was there and participated in that case in someway. Currently, there are only two players in that case that would have a reason to seek help, Tsutomu and Asaka. Taking once again Conan's assumption into consideration, it would mean that the uploader is Tsutomu, or someone that Tsutomu shared the details with(which in that case would exclude Mary, since the implications in File 972 suggested that the text was the only thing he sent to her). If we again disregard Conan's assumption, it would leave Asaka as an option too. The narrative in the website is done as if it's from a neutral person. This is a clever move if you want to avoid suspicion by the people that's hunting you. With that in mind, Asaka could've easily portrayed herself as the prime suspect, since she's aware that it's the first thing an outsider would see her as, after her disappearance(hence why she fled in the first place, if it wasn't because of a shrinking). If it's Tsutomu, then he might not even know if Asaka is Rum or not, unless Rum had distinguishable features/clothes that contradicts the Asaka photo. Whoever it was(Asaka or Tsutomu), it's very clear that Gosho is alluding to that the uploader is someone that was directly involved in that 17-year-old case. Summary:Haneda Kohji - An important development most likely took place during his meeting with Amanda(first plot hole). - A sudden development took place, that interfered with Rum's assassination of Kohji(after successfully drugging him) and forced him to flee, before Kohji left the dying message(second plot hole) - The likelihood that Haneda Kohji had prior knowledge on the BO is currently low. - His dying message is more likely to be something that americans can also interpret, but it might also rely on knowledge that he's comfortable with(like Chess/Shogi).Amanda Hughes - The way she hired Asaka is important(third plot hole). - She was most likely connected to the BO in someway(hence why she was targeted), and her secret hiring of Asaka suggests that she was most likely worried for her life. - The third plot hole might be connected to the first, meaning that Asaka was assigned to Amanda during her meeting with Kohji(in other words, that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard).Asaka - The hand-mirror was at some point with Asaka, and then ended up with Kohji, and the likelihood that it was given to him is high. - If the hand-mirror is Asaka's, and was given to Kohji, then the likelihood that Asaka is female is high(in other words, Asaka being Rum is low). - If Asaka is female, the reason to her disappearance could be due to wanting to avoid blame for the murders, or that she was also attacked with the drug, but instead shrank.Akai Tsutomu - Tsutomu is most likely a CIA agent, and he might've been investigating Amanda's affiliation with the BO. - His text to Mary suggests that he took a stand that interfered with the BO's mission, ultimately making them his enemies. - His interference might be connected to the second plot hole, meaning that he interfered with Rum's assassination, and ended up helping Kohji leave a dying message. Tsutomu might've fought with Rum and bled, but successfully managed to fend him off and flee himself.Rum - Rum's mistake is most likely the fact that he was unable to deal with the interference that lead to Kohji successfully leaving a dying message and Rum not being able to clean up after himself. - If Tsutomu was the interference, then his disappearance adds up to Rum's mistakes. - If Asaka is female, then her disappearance also adds up to Rum's mistakes, and the BO are most likely still searching for her.The Kohji website's uploader - The uploader is most likely someone directly involved in that case. - If Asaka is Rum, then the only alternative is Tsutomu, or someone he shared the info with(excluding Mary). - If Asaka is female, then the likelihood that the uploader is either Asaka or Tsutomu is high. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted February 10, 2017 Reveal hidden contents Well, guess who's back in 987... The plot thickens... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted February 10, 2017 On 2/10/2017 at 7:43 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said: Reveal hidden contents Well, guess who's back in 987... The plot thickens... Without telling me who, can you tell me how many plot characters we have in the cast for next chapter? (I think I already know three) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Serinox 127 Report post Posted February 10, 2017 The spoiler pages have shown two plot characters so far. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted February 10, 2017 On 2/10/2017 at 12:55 PM, Serinox said: The spoiler pages have shown two plot characters so far. I see, thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted February 21, 2017 Rum Arc Discussion Series: Iori Muga Reveal hidden contents Iori Muga is the latest recurring character that was introduced. There are many that has dismissed him as a potential Rum suspect, so I'm gonna go through everything worth noting in his introduction case(File 981-983). Iori's plot involvement As we know, at the end of Iori's introduction case(File 983), we found out that he was Momiji's butler, who was spying on Heiji during the case. The moment he was revealed to be connected to Momiji, a romance-subplot-related upcoming-movie guest, a majority(me included) almost immediately disqualified him as a Rum candidate, in the first few seconds. Many seems to think that Momiji's story will end, or that the love drama will conclude, in the movie, due to the movie focusing on Heiji and Kazuha's romance and Momiji being a love rival, as well as due to the cover art(drawn by Gosho) where Momiji is crying(as if a heart-break took place). There are however two important points that contradicts this notion. The first point is the fact that both Momiji and Iori are canon characters. This means that they started as manga characters and will without a doubt end as manga characters. Judging by Gosho's history with the movies and how he treats the canon relative to the movie, the manga is not dependent on the movies. This ultimately means that Momiji's and Iori's story will be dealt with within the manga and not conclude in the movies. The second point is the anime schedule, relative to the movie. The anime and the movies always goes hand in hand, in which the anime schedule is always adjusted to the movie premiere. Recently, it has involved adding special side-episodes that are supposed to tie the movies with the anime. Since the anime has no chance of catching up to Iori's and Momiji's latest appearances(File 983) before the movie premiere, there's no chance for the movie to smoothly connect with their anime appearances(in which Momiji is still an active love rival) so that it can conclude her story in the movie. This means that the movie will not impact Momiji's love story and her appearance will likely just serve as fanservice and teaser for her manga appearances. This means that Gosho's cover art was just another red-herring(like the M18 cover with Akai being targeted) to generate hype for the movie, and this also means that Iori has the potential to be involved in the main plot like any other new character in the Rum arc. Iori's identity So far, Iori has only appeared in one case, but in this case(File 981-983) there was a lot of indications that makes him a valid Rum suspect. I'll go through all the individual descriptions of Rum. Rum is said to be a "strong man". Iori hasn't shown any physical feats that can portray him as a strong man, however, Gosho gave us an important hint that suggest that Iori has certain physical capabilities. During his first intro chapter(File 981), he intervened in Heiji's and Amuro's conversation. That moment, Iori took Heiji and Conan off-guard, and they reacted by thinking that they couldn't sense his presence. Considering that Iori revealed his presence when he intervened in the conversation, it's safe to assume that he didn't intend to keep himself hidden. This means that he sneaked up on them unintentionally, meaning that it's a habit. The habit of concealing oneself is a very common trait by infiltrators, investigators, and assassins. This indicates that Iori is at least physically trained in concealing himself, which usually follows with other physical capabillities that could portray him as "strong"(depending on his original occupation). During the second chapter of his intro(File 982), we find out that he was standing in front of the exit after the blackout ended. Amuro suspected that Iori was trying to flee, but Iori excused it as him trying to stop anyone that would attempt to flee, after hearing a scream. Iori's excuse is very questionable. Based on his excuse, it means that his first instinct was that the scream was a murder. This is a very suspicious preconception, since it would imply that Iori is used to hearing screams during murders. For him to react that fast after hearing one scream, it would imply that his reaction, of going to the exit, was also a habit. This habit is also very suspicious, because it's commonly associated with someone who's used to being present during crimes. The most common people that are involved in the heat of a crime are usually the criminals themselves. Following this line of thought, it would mean that his habit could be something that stems from him being an assassin. A common assassination strategy is usually to blind the target with darkness, sneak up on them and finish them off, and then immediately hurry to the exit before the lights turn on. This could be why Iori reacted to the scream by trying to flee(because he's used to fleeing the moment he hears screams that he instigated). If he's an assassin, then it would naturally come with physical capabilities that are meant to take down your target(just like how Rum was capable of physically taking down Kohji, before drugging him), which coincides with the "strong" description of Rum. Rum is said to be an "effeminate man". At the end of Iori's intro case(File 983), we get a glimpse at Iori's true appearance(without a hat) and he's revealed to have long curly hair. This instantly fits with Rum's description about a feminine appearance. Rum is said to be an "old man". There's another hidden information about Iori that Gosho was hinting at. The first thing Iori did during his intro(File 981) is that he intervened with Amuro's and heiji's conversation. The historical references he was mentioning, connected to the "unlucky day friday 13th", all originated from Europe. They were specific instances in European history that are not common knowledge in Japan. This was alluding to Iori having a European influence. If we however connect this indication with a very clear appearance that Iori has, we can come to the conclusion that Iori is most likely half-European. The appearance I'm referring to is his eyebrows. Iori's eyebrows are light-coloured/blond. That seems to suggest that his natural hair colour is actually light/blond. Since he showed knowledge of a Japanese superstition(Butsumetsu, File 981), and since no one has commented on him having a foreign look, Iori is most likely Japanese, and based on his natural hair colour and knowledge of Europe, he's most likely half-european(probably British). This would make him a young light/blond-haired Japanese, which is very rare and would attract a lot of attention when seen in public. Iori most likely dyed his hair black to blend in with other Japanese people. With his natural appearance however, it's not hard to believe that he could be described as an old man, if seen from afar, because only old men, that are japanese, usually have light-colored hair. Rum has a prosthetic eye. During Iori's intro case, we didn't get many opportunities to observe his movement and behavior that would suggest that he can't see with one eye. However, in File 988, Rumi, who seemingly has two functioning eyes, got suspected of having one disfunctional eye(the right eye). This was well crafted by Gosho, since he made sure that most of Rumi's head movement were consistent so that it wouldn't reveal that she has two functioning eyes. In my Rumi discussion, the evidence that I used to prove that she has two functioning eyes was that she turned both sides to look back without turning her body. Her left side is proven to work, since almost all her movement when looking back is to the left side. Her right side however was only one instance in File 968, when she was arguably looking at Genta's direction. It's very hard to tell if her pupils are on the right(because she picked up on the robbers' presence behind them, like Haibara), or if she's really looking at Genta. If it's not the latter(which I first assumed it was), then her being one-eyed isn't necessarily ruled out, meaning that Haibara's suspicion in File 988 isn't a completely unreasonable outcome. The point of this Rumi topic however is the fact that both of Rumi's eyes have been shown to move around, depending on the direction she is looking, and yet, Gosho is showing that she's valid enough to be suspected as someone with an artificial eye(which shouldn't be able to move). This could possibly mean that Gosho is disregarding the eye movement of characters with unnoticeable prosthetic eyes for plot conveniences(similarly to Conan's voice-changing bowtie not being noticed as the sound from a speaker). If that's the case, then Iori, who has shown to have moving eyes(like when he looked at the door to the side or at the phone below, File 982), might still have a prosthetic eye. If he has a prosthetic eye, then it's probably his left eye. My reasoning for that is based on Gosho's artistic choices when he creates a reflection effect on Rumi's glasses. All those times when the reflection covered one eye, it was always the right eye, which is being suspected to be disfunctional(File 968/979/980/988). Simarly to this, the two instances in Iori's introduction case, both reflections covered the left eye(File 981/982). If Iori is Rum, isn't he too young for the 17-year-old case? By the time of the Kohji case, Iori was at least 13 years old(since his "Iori identity" is 30). That was the age that Shiho became a full-fledged high-ranked scientist of the Black Organization, due to her being an academic prodigy. Similarly to that, Rum could've also been a prodigy, that showed so much potential in an early age and was able to carry out assassinations. Teenagers mature at different rates, so it's not impossible that he had an acceptable build and a lot of techniques to take down his opponents before finishing them off(in this case, with poison). Following my previous speculations on the potential Wakita-foreshadowing(About the boss betting so much on Rum and that Wakita sees Rum as weak), it's possible that Wakita's underestimation of Rum is based on Rum's inexperience and how he's too young to be the second-in-command, while the Boss disregards that(similarly to Sherry's case), and bets a lot on Rum's potential of being an excellent commander. Iori's overall portrayal of being "Watson", in his introduction case, could be Gosho's foreshadowing to Iori's overall role in the story. Since the boss is supposed to be a parallell to "Holmes", then Rum would equate to "Watson". The boss is most likely a sherlockian, due to him using "Sherlock Holmes" references to the experimental drug(Apotoxin [4869=Shi-Ha-Ro-Ku=Sherlock], and "incomplete detective"[APTX database password: "Shelling Ford"]), so Rum being "Watson" to the boss isn't an unreasonable assumption. Also, since friday 13th(Iori's intro day) involved major main plot development before(Akai's "death"), it's not weird that Gosho would intentionally use that day as a little nod to the readers that Iori's introduction is just as important. Iori's goal If Iori is Rum, then the only possible reason to why he would be Momiji's butler is her family, the Ooka, or someone the Ooka family are close to. So far, we don't have enough information to go beyond that, but if that's the case, then his butler behavior is definitely an act, in order to achieve something bigger. Summary: - Movie 21 will not resolve Momiji's and Iori's current subplot. - Iori is a valid Rum suspect, and could in fact be Rum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gg1998 3 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) On 1/25/2017 at 9:35 PM, MeiTanteixX said: Yeah. I have this strong gut-feeling he's bluffing though. It's a clever strategy because even if Vermouth caught on to that possibility, she definitely wouldn't wanna risk it by killing him anyway(since she's clearly afraid of its leakage). On 1/26/2017 at 2:51 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said: Yeah, because if she wasn't, she might've killed him right then and there (898/783). Her secret may very well, indeed, be about her relationship to the Boss/Anokata, but he may not know how they're related. On 2/1/2017 at 5:37 PM, MeiTanteixX said: Rum Arc Discussion Series: The Kohji Case Reveal hidden contents The Kohji case had a lot of scattered information. Although it's limited, we have gotten many clues that are worth discussing. As we know, The 17-year-old double-murder was done by the Black Organization. This was a cemented fact, the moment we found out that Kohji's name was written in the APTX list(the list of victims that were drugged by the organization's experimental drug)(File 947). Then, it was established that Rum(BO's current second-in-command) was the culprit, through Gin(File 953). The victims were Haneda Kohji and Amanda Hughes, and the prime suspect was Asaka. We also know that Akai Tsutomu was involved. In total, we have 5 important players in this case, and I'll be going though each one of them. Haneda Kohji Haneda Kohji was a shogi-player and had come to the US to participate in a chess competition. The day before the competition, he was killed in his hotel room. What we know from that "Kohji website"(which contained the details surrounding that case) is that he was visited by Amanda Hughes(a huge fan of his), before his death. The reason this was "assumed" was because her fingerprints were found on different places inside Kohji's room. Since her fingerprints were found on teacups, sofa and knife & forks, it is assumed that they were sitting on the sofa, drinking tea and eating snacks while having a chat(File 948). After Amanda left, he was later assaulted by Rum, the culprit of that case, and the defensive wounds in Kohji's arms, including the broken crockery and smashed cups, suggested that he was struggling against him until he was forced with the prototype drug(made by Sherry's parents). For an unknown reason however, Rum had fled the scene, before cleaning up the messy room in order to make it look like nothing happened(following the BO's M.O)(948). Because of this, Kohji was able to leave a dying message, by "cutting" out specific letters from a hand-mirror after putting it under hot water. This was assumed due to the fact that his hand had marks that suggested that he was gripping a pair of scissors very tightly, and that the sink in his room was left open, as well as that a hand-mirror with missing letters was found. The missing letters were "*U* ** MASCARA"(derived from "PUT ON MASCARA"). As we know, Conan's(and the rest of the cast's) interpretation of the dying message was that the removed letters "U MASCARA" was the message itself, and that it could be rearranged as "ASACA RUM", and could be seen as "Asaka is Rum". Whether this is the true interpretation or not, or whether the arrangement is even correct, is still a debate, but that it coincides with the names of two important players in this case is a hard fact. There are two incidents that needs attention. The first is Kohji's clearly highlighted meeting with Amanda, not long before his death, and the second is Rum's sudden escape from the crime scene. These two holes in the "Kohji website info" most likely plays a big role in the overall case development, since they are left vague by Gosho because he's planning on filling them in later on. Amanda's conversation with Kohji therefore carries a hidden development. Going by Haibara's assumption, Amanda was most likely Rum's target, and Kohji was most likely targeted by Rum because he was affiliated with her and had met her very recently(which, again follows the M.O of the BO, since they try to erase any potential leads to them). If Kohji wasn't directly connected to the BO, then there's no way for him to know about the BO members' code-name(as assumed by Conan). Considering that Rum left the scene right after his attack(second hole), there shouldn't have been a moment were his code-name could be heard by Kohji. If Conan's assumption is true, is it possible that Amanda's conversation with Kohji(first hole) played an important role in this scenario? Depending on Amanda's affiliation with the BO, she could have potentially shared information about the BO/Rum with Kohji. This does however raise the question of why she would go to Kohji(of all people), her favorite shogi player that happened to visit the US for a match, to share that dangerous information. From the knowledge that we currently have regarding Kohji's and Amanda's relationship, it does seem out of place and too unrealistic to be the case, which by extension makes the assumption that Kohji knew about the BO/Rum, as well as "ASACA RUM" interpretation, less likely. The second hole suggests an interference, or an urgent development, that forced Rum to leave the scene. This sudden development lead to Kohji being alone in the room, followed by him leaving the dying message. Assuming that Kohji didn't know about Rum/BO(in other words, "ASACA=RUM" is incorrect), it would mean that his message could have been mainly one of three things. The first possibility is a warning. If he for some reason had a suspicion about the killer's original target, or the next target, then his message could've served as a warning for that target(like in File 133). The second possibility is the identity of the culprit. Like the majority of all dying message, this message could have been revealing the culprit's identity, meaning that Kohji recognized Rum and knew his name(Examples:"karasuma"/"Sakamura"/"Masakura"[a sake name apparently btw]/etc.). In this case, it would mean that Rum is a famous figure, similar to Chris Vineyard(Vermouth). Since we know that Kohji was struggling against Rum, it wouldn't be strange if Rum lost his disguise(hat/cap/mask/etc) in the middle of it, and ended up revealing himself to Kohji. If Rum wasn't a known figure however, it's possible that Rum had distinguishable characteristics/features that Kohji was alluding to in his message(like scar/age-group/gender/symbol). The third possibility is a final word. From the very beginning, this could have been a message intended for a loved one, or someone else that he wanted to relay a final message to. It's also possible that the message had more than one meaning, but with the restrained time, it's unlikely. Overall, considering that he had alphabetic letters to work with, and since he's in the US, it's not a stretch to assume that the message can be read by non-japanese speakers, but it's also possible that the message relies on knowledge that he's the most comfortable with, like shogi and chess(interestingly enough, the numbers in chessboards fits with the number of letters in the message). Amanda Hughes Amanda Hughes was an old wealthy and influential person who was Kohji's fan. Just like with Kohji, she was killed by Rum. Although her name was never seen in the APTX list, her mysterious death suggests that she died from the prototype drug(which leaves no trace after being digested). According to Haibara, Amanda was most likely the organization's target, due to her powerful position in society, and she even had connections to the FBI & CIA(File 948). Before her death, as mentioned, she visited Kohji to chat about something. After the visit, she died after digesting the prototype drug. The fact that there was no indication of a struggle, and the that the room was left tidy, means that Rum successfully followed the BO's M.O, which by extension makes the fact that the Kohji crime scene was a mess even more suspicion. Somehow, Amanda got herself a bodyguard that she called "Asaka". The bodyguard Asaka disappeared directly after the murder, ultimately making him/her the prime suspect. Even close acquaintances of Amanda were clueless as to how she hired Asaka, meaning that it was done secretly for some reason(948). In Amanda's case, we can once again find another important hole in the information. The third hole is the mystery behind the way Amanda hired Asaka, and why. An influential person like Amanda hiring bodyguards(for no reason) is nothing uncommon, but the fact that it was hidden from her close relatives and acquaintances suggests that there was a hidden motive behind it. If she was aware of the BO's plans to assassinate her, then it would explain her secret activities. For her to be aware of it however, it would imply that she's connected to them in someway. Seeing as she's a wealthy woman, it's very likely that she was investing money to the BO(possibly for their research). The fact that she didn't seek help from her FBI/CIA contacts(as far as we know) suggests that she might have been avoiding them(possibly due her involvement with a criminal organization). The fact she might be aware that her life is in danger might be due to her doing something that she knows went against the BO's wishes. It could've also been a mistake on her part, that she knew was unforgivable. Another reason could be that she fell under their suspicion, due to her ties with the FBI/CIA being accidentally revealed, leading to the BO losing their trust on her(whether she was spying for them or not). So how did Amanda hire Asaka? Going by Conan's assumption("ASACA=RUM"), it would mean that she unknowingly secretly hired Rum, a BO member. But if her secrecy is due to the anticipated BO threat, then that would mean that she hired the "threat" himself to protect herself from it. That kind of mistake is very alerting, since you would assume that someone who's likely fearing for their life would be extra picky and careful with the people they hire. Also, if she really did that mistake, it would mean that Rum had all the time to kill her, before they arrived in the hotel, but not only did he let her live up to that point, but he also let her meet Kohji, which lead to him having to unnecessarily kill him afterwards(and ultimately make mistakes). Following this line of thought, it's very unlikely that Amanda hired/met Rum before she visited the hotel(assuming again, that "ASACA=RUM" is true). If this is the case, it also seems quite unlikely and unsafe for someone in her position to meet/hire someone, that she hasn't met before, in a public place like a hotel(especially if she was aware of the BO threat, hence her secret hiring). This makes the overall "ASACA=RUM" interpretation even more improbable. If we were to ignore Conan's assumption, then all these inconsistencies that we currently have disappears. This still leaves us with the question of how Asaka was hired. If we consider the the first hole in the "Kohji website info"(Amanda's meeting with Kohji), then it could potentially fill this third hole(Asaka's hiring). If Asaka was hired during Amanda's meeting with Kohji, then it could explain why the hiring was such a mystery to everyone close to her. What this would imply is that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard, who came with him to the US. As I addressed before, the likelihood that Amanda would reveal dangerous info about the BO to a shogi player, that she happens to admire, is very unlikely. It's not as unlikely however that she might have addressed general worries for her life during her chat with him. This could've ultimately lead to Kohji having his trusted bodyguard Asaka assigned to Amanda, as extra precaution, during her stay in the hotel(if not until the competition the next day), in order calm her nerves. Asaka As I mentioned in my Rumi discussion, there are certain contradictions about Asaka. To summarize it, if Asaka is Rum, then Asaka can't be a woman. The thing that suggested to Hotta, as well as Conan, that Asaka is female is the fact she was seen carrying a hand-mirror. That hand-mirror was most likely the same hand-mirror that Kohji used for his dying message. This is another clue that could help us shed some light to this Asaka mystery. When Agasa asked if it was Amanda's hand-mirror, Haibara mentioned that it's probably Kohji's and that it's normal for Shogi-players to care for their looks, but that it also might've been given to him by someone(File 948). This looked a lot like Gosho's way of alluding to the truth, like he usually does with Conan(when the last thing he points out after his previous points ends up being the correct one). Kohji being given the hand-mirror by someone is most likely the truth. What we also need to take into consideration however is that Asaka was at some point seen with a hand-mirror(File 953). Again, if we look at it through the "ASACA=RUM" mindset, it would imply that at some point, the hand-mirror went from Rum to Kohji(since Rum fled the scene before Kohji left the message with the hand-mirror, and since the room was never cleaned up, Rum likely never returned). The only possible way for that to happen is if he dropped his hand-mirror during his struggle with Kohji, but that still raises the question of why Rum carries a hand-mirror to begin with. It's not a rule that only females can carry it, but from Gosho's depiction of that plot-point, we are supposed to see gender-stereotypes as the norm. Taking this fact into consideration, including the implications that the hand-mirror was most likely given to Kohji, once again lessens the likelihood of "ASACA=RUM" interpretation to be true. If Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard however, it would explain why Asaka was seen with it and how it was given to Kohji. This would imply that Asaka is indeed a female bodyguard, who shared her hand-mirror with the person she's hired to protect, Kohji. If we were to follow this line of thought however, we come to the realization that even after Asaka was assigned to Amanda, by Kohji, Rum still managed to kill her. The tidiness of the room suggest that a mess wasn't created, or that he successfully cleaned after himself without interference. Right after killing Amanda, he went straight to Kohji's room, but what happened to Asaka? If there was never a mess in Amanda's room to begin with, then it's possible that his attack on her wasn't as straightforward as when he dealt with Kohji. Rum could've planned out the best strategy to poison her without having to directly force it into her. With this possibility in mind, it wouldn't be impossible for Rum to have overlooked Asaka(who he didn't expect to be in Amanda's room as she unknowingly digested the poison). How he directly dealt with Kohji, using force, indicates that Kohji's assassination was most likely an urgent last-minute-plan(after finding out about his meeting with Amanda). That's when the second hole comes into the picture(where Rum, for an unknown reason, suddenly flees from Kohji's room, after forcing him with the drug), and after Asaka realized that both of them were dead, she likely fled due to all of it looking like she did it(especially since she was in both of their rooms). If Rum directly attacked Amanda as well however, and then later cleaned up her room, it's also possible that he in fact did attack Asaka along with Amanda, and forced her with the drug, after finding out that she was Kohji's bodyguard(meaning that Kohji met Amanda). Although we have no clues to shrinking side-effects of the early prototypes made by Sherry's parents, it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the possibility that Asaka shrank, which in turn would explain her sudden disappearance after Kohji's and Amanda's death. Pisco's line about Sherry's prototype's shrinking effect suggests that her parents never got their research that far(File 242), but Pisco's knowledge could've easily been limited as well. Akai Tsutomu The first time Akai's father was mentioned was in File 949. Subaru revealed that his father was involved in Kohji's case and that his involvement was the reason he joined the FBI. When Conan asked if Tsutomu worked with the FBI, Subaru answered:"He wasn't FBI, but..." In this very case(FIle 948-950), there are two important groups that were name-dropped, the FBI & the CIA. These drops were most likely intentionally setup by Gosho for this very hint to be established. Akai Tsutomu was involved for a reason, and it was most likely connected to Amanda, who was targeted by the BO and had ties to both the FBI & CIA. The fact that Subaru left an ambiguous "but..."(as if an alternative answer was underway before he interrupted himself), right after denying that his father worked with the FBI, indicates that Tsutomu must be working with the other alternative, that was recently mentioned alongside the first alternative, the CIA. It's a clever story-telling tactic to hide the answer while at the same time leaving it right under the reader's nose. His involvement with a case that takes place in the US(even though his family lives in the UK) further indicates that his father was tied to the country in someway(which makes sense if he was a CIA-agent). Adding to the fact that Akai had an unknown source that possessed CIA intel(File 595) further hints towards this direction. His goal was most likely Amanda Hughes. It's possible that the CIA picked up on her suspicious activities that connected her to the BO(her possible investments for example). Whatever the reason was, it lead curious Tsutomu to the hotel. What we later find out is that Tsutomu disappeared after Kohji's and Amanda's death, similarly to Asaka. Mary reveals that he apparently sent a final message during his disappearance, warning his family that "he made enemies with really horrible people" and that they should flee to Japan and act like he's dead(File 972). This was followed by Akai, who thinks to himself about his father's body not being found. Tsutomu said that he had "made enemies" with some really "horrible people". This was clearly alluding to the BO, but what is interesting to note is that he said that "he made enemies". This is a clear indication that Tsutomu stood against the BO during his involvement in the Kohji case, meaning that he interfered with their activities, which lead to him becoming their target. This very situation that he got himself into coincides awfully well with the second hole in the "Kohji website info"(Rum's sudden escape from Kohji's room) and could potentially be the answer to it. The reason to why Rum couldn't follow the BO's M.O in Kohji's room and instead fled could be due to Tsutomu's interference. After finding Amanda's corpse, Tsutomu might've run straight to Kohji's room and encountered Rum, who had just forced Kohji with the drug. The fact that Akai was talking about "a dead body not being found", indicates that there were most likely signs of Tsutomu's potential death(but with no trace of a body). The usual signs of death is if blood is found in a crime scene. If Tsutomu's blood was in Kohji's room, then it's very likely that a fight took place between Rum and Tsutomu, ultimately leading towards Rum's escape and Tsutomu's disappearance(after realizing the trouble his family could get into). While Rum was distracted by Tsutomu, Kohji would have the little time that he needed to leave a message, as he's slowly dying by the drug(similarly to how Shinichi struggles before the shrinking-effect kicks in). This scenario would imply that Akai Tsutomu is still alive(if there's no future development that would suggest otherwise). Rum In this whole case exposition(File 948-954), the only hard facts we have regarding Rum and the BO is that Rum screwed up his job(File 953), and that the BO is aware of the dying message, and that it can be read as "ASACA RUM"(File 954). This very limited information doesn't tell us much about Rum, or if "ASACA=RUM" is true, but it does imply that Rum's mistake is connected to the second hole(Rum suddenly fleeing from the scene). Following my previous potential explanation to that hole, it's possible that Tsutomu was the cause to Rum's escape, which lead to all the mistakes that followed with it(The M.O not being fulfilled, Tsutomu not being dealt with and Kohji managing to leave a potentially-dangerous message). Now, taking Conan's assumption to consideration, the message would clearly pose a problem to the BO. But if we look at it from the second perspective(dismissing Conan's assumption), it would mean that another weight is added to Rum's mistake, Asaka. Her disappearance is clearly another problem that highlights Rum's mistake from 17 years ago, since the "Kohji website" keeps reminding them that one person, that was involved, managed to escape(whether Asaka was overlooked at the moment of the crime or not) and could pose a threat if they(Asaka) possess threatening information. Them investigating anything that involves "ASACA RUM"(the dying message) wouldn't be surprising, if Asaka is still being searched by them and that the message might be connected to her. The Kohji Website's uploader When Agasa was surprised by the amount of detail in the Kohji website, Conan revealed that the website was taken down multiple times, but the uploader kept putting it up continuously as if they were desperately seeking help(File 948). This was then followed by Agasa emphasizing the suspicious "minute detail" that the website had regarding that case. This was clearly Gosho's way to hint us that the uploader was someone that was there and participated in that case in someway. Currently, there are only two players in that case that would have a reason to seek help, Tsutomu and Asaka. Taking once again Conan's assumption into consideration, it would mean that the uploader is Tsutomu, or someone that Tsutomu shared the details with(which in that case would exclude Mary, since the implications in File 972 suggested that the text was the only thing he sent to her). If we again disregard Conan's assumption, it would leave Asaka as an option too. The narrative in the website is done as if it's from a neutral person. This is a clever move if you want to avoid suspicion by the people that's hunting you. With that in mind, Asaka could've easily portrayed herself as the prime suspect, since she's aware that it's the first thing an outsider would see her as, after her disappearance(hence why she fled in the first place, if it wasn't because of a shrinking). If it's Tsutomu, then he might not even know if Asaka is Rum or not, unless Rum had distinguishable features/clothes that contradicts the Asaka photo. Whoever it was(Asaka or Tsutomu), it's very clear that Gosho is alluding to that the uploader is someone that was directly involved in that 17-year-old case. Summary:Haneda Kohji - An important development most likely took place during his meeting with Amanda(first plot hole). - A sudden development took place, that interfered with Rum's assassination of Kohji(after successfully drugging him) and forced him to flee, before Kohji left the dying message(second plot hole) - The likelihood that Haneda Kohji had prior knowledge on the BO is currently low. - His dying message is more likely to be something that americans can also interpret, but it might also rely on knowledge that he's comfortable with(like Chess/Shogi).Amanda Hughes - The way she hired Asaka is important(third plot hole). - She was most likely connected to the BO in someway(hence why she was targeted), and her secret hiring of Asaka suggests that she was most likely worried for her life. - The third plot hole might be connected to the first, meaning that Asaka was assigned to Amanda during her meeting with Kohji(in other words, that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard).Asaka - The hand-mirror was at some point with Asaka, and then ended up with Kohji, and the likelihood that it was given to him is high. - If the hand-mirror is Asaka's, and was given to Kohji, then the likelihood that Asaka is female is high(in other words, Asaka being Rum is low). - If Asaka is female, the reason to her disappearance could be due to wanting to avoid blame for the murders, or that she was also attacked with the drug, but instead shrank.Akai Tsutomu - Tsutomu is most likely a CIA agent, and he might've been investigating Amanda's affiliation with the BO. - His text to Mary suggests that he took a stand that interfered with the BO's mission, ultimately making them his enemies. - His interference might be connected to the second plot hole, meaning that he interfered with Rum's assassination, and ended up helping Kohji leave a dying message. Tsutomu might've fought with Rum and bled, but successfully managed to fend him off and flee himself.Rum - Rum's mistake is most likely the fact that he was unable to deal with the interference that lead to Kohji successfully leaving a dying message and Rum not being able to clean up after himself. - If Tsutomu was the interference, then his disappearance adds up to Rum's mistakes. - If Asaka is female, then her disappearance also adds up to Rum's mistakes, and the BO are most likely still searching for her.The Kohji website's uploader - The uploader is most likely someone directly involved in that case. - If Asaka is Rum, then the only alternative is Tsutomu, or someone he shared the info with(excluding Mary). - If Asaka is female, then the likelihood that the uploader is either Asaka or Tsutomu is high. I also have similar issues with the Haneda case, A random thought just came to my mind about the Haneda Kohji murder case. What the does dying message really mean? "ASACA RUM" doesn't seem to be pointing anything at all, other than mention of the two names. How did Haneda know about the codename of the BO operative? Why Rum didn't notice the dying message, cause when Rum was poisoning Haneda by APTX, he ought to have seen the dying message, then why the BO operative didn't do anything about it? Was the message really left by Haneda?(Cause we know about a series of defensive injuries inflicted upon him and then he was poisoned by APTX so that no trace is left. Then how did Haneda was able to write the dying message. Conan readily compared the case with the one he was solving but the method's were vastly different. The Haneda's case looked more similar to the poisoning of Shinichi in the very first episode. First knocking the man out and then forcing him the APTX capsule. That's why I'm inclined to think that it was a ploy of Rum to implicate Asaca and Asaca being wary of been photographed made sense if she was an undercover agent protecting the American lady.) Edited February 22, 2017 by gg1998 Grammatical mistake Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 On 1/26/2017 at 2:51 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said: Her secret may very well, indeed, be about her relationship to the Boss/Anokata, but he may not know how they're related. Just noticed that you interpreted my "bluff argument" wrong. When I said Bourbon was bluffing, I was referring to the consequences of Vermouth Killing him, not that Bourbon is acting like he knows the secret(he definitely knows the secret). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/22/2017 at 11:40 AM, MeiTanteixX said: When I said Bourbon was bluffing, I was referring to the consequences of Vermouth Killing him, not that Bourbon is acting like he knows the secret(he definitely knows the secret). Nah, my response wasn't about him bluffing. I just thought there was a possibility that he may only know that, say, Vermouth and Anokata are family members... in other words, it may be that he doesn't know if they were siblings or parent and child—he would just know that they're family. But you'll notice I put "may" in italics—the reason is, there's a higher chance that he knows the whole thing. If he does know the whole thing, then him eventually telling someone, in a file—thus telling us—is very much an anticipated ting. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/22/2017 at 1:28 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said: Nah, my response wasn't about him bluffing. I just thought there was a possibility that he may only know that, say, Vermouth and Anokata are family members... in other words, it may be that he doesn't know if they were siblings or parent and child—he would just know that they're family. But you'll notice I put "may" in italics—the reason is, there's a higher chance that he knows the whole thing. If he does know the whole thing, then him eventually telling someone, in a file—thus telling us—is very much an anticipated ting. So my first understanding was correct... damn... I should have trusted you x) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/22/2017 at 1:38 PM, MeiTanteixX said: So my first understanding was correct... damn... I should have trusted you x) Nah, it's cool. You can never be as sure as you may like unless you ask, right? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 1/22/2017 at 11:27 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said: Reveal hidden contents Even though Shinichi/Conan wouldn't be her primary objective, if she's Rumi, what would she do if she finds out he is looking into that case? Remember this question? Based on her possible grudge on Rum(since she was gripping that object hard in reaction to "Prosthetic"), and based on this finding... I think that she has a personal connection to Kohji and wants Conan's help to solve the dying message(while in disguise as Rumi). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 10:48 AM, MeiTanteixX said: Remember this question? Based on her possible grudge on Rum(since she was gripping that object hard in reaction to "Prosthetic"), and based on this finding... I think that she has a personal connection to Kohji and wants Conan's help to solve the dying message(while in disguise as Rumi). Nope, still don't buy it—and I won't until we get a panel of Rumi pulling her "face" off to reveal Vermouth's, or we get Vermouth in background overlay beside Rumi (like how she was in background overlay while disguised as Azusa (954–957)). Then you can do whatever victory flourish you will. This goes way beyond allowing Shinichi/Conan to target the BO by not telling them about him—this is straight up aid to Shinichi/Conan. There's been no prior indication of her being willing to do anything more than let him work out of the BO's sight. If she's really been this smart all along, she should've already solved it, and she should not have been outwitted by Shinichi/Conan before (429–434/345). Especially when she seemed so determined to kill Shiho/Ai. And this would mean that Vermouth is Asaka, right? So, for some reason, the boss/anokata sent 2 members to deal with Amanda, but Vermouth... fell in love?... and wanted to get back at Rum? I'd rather have a new character than Vermouth doing her disguise schtick again... and she's crying for Ayumi, now? When is she acting, and when is she showing her real self? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 11:28 AM, DCUniverseAficionado said: This goes way beyond allowing Shinichi/Conan to target the BO by not telling them about him—this is straight up aid to Shinichi/Conan. She's not really aiding him if she simply wants his aid to solve the dying message. Quote If she's really been this smart all along, she should've already solved it, and she should not have been outwitted by Shinichi/Conan before (429–434/345). If you are once again talking about Rumi's intelligence, then as I said, we haven't really been proven that she isn't smart enough. As for this dying message, we don't know even know if the message is missing something or what knowledge it relies on. We can't just generalise the whole confrontation in File 429-434 without taking into account all the factors that played into it. Conan and Yukiko's disguise-teamwork shouldn't have been in her realm of possibilities(since I doubt she even knew Yukiko was in Japan and she wasn't aware that Conan was onto her). Ran was an unpredictable interference(her weakness), and in the end, she did outsmart Conan and successfully fled. Quote And this would mean that Vermouth's Asaka, right? So, for some reason, the boss/anokata sent 2 members to deal with Amanda, but Vermouth... fell in love?... and wanted to get back at Rum? Nope. Rumi is not Asaka. Quote I'd rather have a new character than Vermouth doing her disguise schtick again... and she's crying for Ayumi, now? When is she acting, and when is she showing her real self? I think it was genuine, based on how Haibara was able to ignore her suspicion because of it. The whole "stab her" was meant as a distraction, but I don't doubt that she would under other circumstances be capable of killing children. Quote Then you can do whatever victory flourish you will. If we got that twist, there would be no time to flourish anything. I would be just as mind-blown(like how I was by the Subaru reveal, even though I knew and agreed with the Akai theory). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 11:53 AM, MeiTanteixX said: She's not really aiding him if she simply wants his aid to solve the dying message. But even if that's her motivation, she's risking unintentionally aiding him. It's still a murder perpetrated by the BO that's tied to the BO's #2 that she wants him to help her with. So far, it seems to me that she's only been willing to aid him by merely not giving him up to the BO. If she's Rumi, she'd be butting into the Rum arc, and stealing the spotlight, simply showing that she's even more unloyal to the BO than already indicated. And her motivation for this bucking of the trend is only a case from 17 years ago? I would expect a case she's personally invested in to be from 20+ years ago, and for it to be revealed—and for Shinichi/Conan to then find out about it—later on in the story (at the very least, past File 1000). I'd rather see a new character than Vermouth in disguise. On 3/3/2017 at 11:53 AM, MeiTanteixX said: We can't just generalise the whole confrontation in File 429-434 without taking into account all the factors that played into it. Conan and Yukiko's disguise-teamwork shouldn't have been in her realm of possibilities(since I doubt she even knew Yukiko was in Japan and she wasn't aware that Conan was onto her). Ran was an unpredictable interference(her weakness), and in the end, she did outsmart Conan and successfully fled. If she's as smart as Rumi seems to be (hinting Shinichi/Conan to solve a murder case), then I see no reason she couldn't have predicted that. If she'd realized that Conan was Shinichi, then surely she could predict that her old friend, his mother, would aid him with the skill they'd learned together. It'd be even more foolish of her to underestimate his intelligence like that. She had a stroke of luck fall her way when Shiho/Ai arrived, then Ran took that away—apart from that, she was completely outsmarted by Shinichi/Conan, in that particular situation. She foolishly texted the boss, clearly not predicting that he would've prepared for his initial plan to go awry. And I don't count that sleeping gas phone—she should always have something like that, right? I doubt it was an item she only brought for, and used in, that particular situation. Shinichi's/Conan's heart monitor and recorder, on the other hand—now that's something he would've only brought for that situation. Bottom line—Vermouth has come off to me as being below Shinichi's/Conan's intellectual level (she is smarter than most, yes... but in terms of facing off against the top tier intellects in DC... not so much). Therefore, I find it doubtful that Rumi, someone who figured out the solution to a murder and then hinted Shinichi/Conan to solving it, is actually her in disguise. Considering her determination, at the time, to do away with Shiho/Ai, there's no way she'd hold back her intelligence and let Shinichi/Conan beat her—if she was as smart as I find Rumi to be, Shiho/Ai would be dead. On 3/3/2017 at 11:53 AM, MeiTanteixX said: Nope. Rumi is not Asaka. Oh, that's right—for you, Mary is Asaka, correct? So Vermouth was not at the hotel when the murder happened?... then how did she get that piece of glass? On 3/3/2017 at 11:53 AM, MeiTanteixX said: I think it was genuine, based on how Haibara was able to ignore her suspicion because of it. So Vermouth was genuinely relieved that Ayumi was alright, to the point of tears? On 3/3/2017 at 11:53 AM, MeiTanteixX said: The whole "stab her" was meant as a distraction, but I don't doubt that she would under other circumstances be capable of killing children. If you say she was only acting psychotic so Hyoue could grab the culprit from behind, I'm fine with that. Vermouth never struck me as psychotic... unless she's using that cool, collected assassin aura she gives off as a cover for the damaged, broken person that she really is, inside. On 3/3/2017 at 11:53 AM, MeiTanteixX said: I would be just as mind-blown (like how I was by the Subaru reveal, even though I knew and agreed with the Akai theory). I, too, can theorize and speculate and not have the enjoyment taken out of it, because of it—glad to hear you can, as well. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 1:12 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said: If she's as smart as Rumi seems to be (hinting Shinichi/Conan to solve a murder case), then I see no reason she couldn't have predicted that. If she'd realized that Conan was Shinichi, then surely she could predict that her old friend, his mother, would aid him with the skill they'd learned together. It'd be even more foolish of her to underestimate his intelligence like that. Considering that that case was when she realized Conan might be their Silver Bullet, I don't doubt that she underestimated him a bit(hence why she anticipated that he would go to the Halloween party). She only had NY-ending/School festival/Bus-Hijack/Omiai/haunted-apartment-start/Miyano-house-start to base her suspicions on. None which hinted to Yukiko being involved. Shinichi managed to trick her by seeming oblivious, due to knowing that the house was bugged(like he later did in Mystery train). Hinting to Conan about cases doesn't make her an all-knowing-entity. Quote She had a stroke of luck fall her way when Shiho/Ai arrived, then Ran took that away—apart from that, she was completely outsmarted by Shinichi/Conan, in that particular situation. She foolishly texted the boss, clearly not predicting that he would've prepared for his initial plan to go awry. And I don't count that sleeping gas phone—she should always have something like that, right? I doubt it was an item she only brought for, and used in, that particular situation. Shinichi's/Conan's heart monitor and recorder, on the other hand—now that's something he would've only brought for that situation. We can't know that for sure. She is clearly aware of his stun-gun wrist-watch(after Bus Hijack), so she could've easily thought ahead in case she would be faced by it(I was actually planning on using that in the last fan chapter :P). When Conan brought that for that situation, it was for the situation in his original plan, when he was captured as Haibara, not after all the setbacks would occur. He was lucky that Vermouth was forced to take him as a hostage(even after knowing he's not Haibara). Quote Oh, that's right—for you, Mary is Asaka, correct? To me, at the moment, Asaka hasn't been introduced yet(or at the very least isn't one of the obvious Rum arc characters). "Mary = Asaka" was debunked ever since the Ripple series(File 972-974). Quote So Vermouth was not at the hotel when the murder happened?... then how did she get that piece of glass? She got it afterwards. Maybe she was in the hotel to meet Kohji(who she seems to have personal relationship with, of some sort)(it's the US, so it's not weird that Sharon would be there). She could have easily disguised herself as a cop and found/taken it from where Kohji hid it(inside the sink maybe?) As well. Quote So Vermouth was genuinely relieved that Ayumi was alright, to the point of tears? Rumi's two sides was being emphasised through Haibara's and Conan's behavior(the way I see it, it's identical to Vermouth's overall portrayal, and since Vermouth is Gosho's favorite BO member, I don't find it weird that he used Haibara to transmit two opinions(Haibara's and his own)). Quote If you say she was only acting psychotic so Hyoue could grab the culprit from behind, I'm fine with that. Don't know how aware she was of Kuroda's intentions, but if anything else, maybe she was planning on doing what Subaru did to save Ayumi. Quote Vermouth never struck me as psychotic... unless she's using that cool, collected assassin aura she gives off as a cover for the damaged, broken person that she really is, inside. Subaru showed a completely new side of Akai, so I'm ready for new sides overall. Quote I, too, can theorize and speculate and not have the enjoyment taken out of it, because of it—glad to hear you can, as well. I'm the kind of person who gets a thrill from being confused. Gosho managed to throw so many curveballs in the latest development, I was having a blast piecing them together. Overall, I think the fact that Haibara's sense was overlooked makes it an even more vital clue to Rumi's identity, and I can't at the moment see Asaka as a BO member, with everything in mind. Also, the biggest indicator(along with the sense) is that Rumi is aware of Rum's artificial eye, when even Kuroda himself(who seems to have clashed with Rum) doesn't seem to know about it, nonetheless Rum's appearance(since he suspected Rumi). So far, none other than BO members has shown knowledge of his prosthetic eye, which further supports the idea that Rumi is BO-affiliated, and therefore, more likely Vermouth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 2:04 PM, MeiTanteixX said: Considering that that case was when she realized Conan might be their Silver Bullet, I don't doubt that she underestimated him a bit(hence why she anticipated that he would go to the Halloween party). She only had NY-ending/School festival/Bus-Hijack/Omiai/haunted-apartment-start/Miyano-house-start to base her suspicions on. None which hinted to Yukiko being involved. Shinichi managed to trick her by seeming oblivious, due to knowing that the house was bugged(like he later did in Mystery train). Hinting to Conan about cases doesn't make her an all-knowing-entity. She shouldn't need hints—she knows Conan's true identity. She knows who his mother is. She knows his mother's capabilities. Therefore, she should've been prepared for Shinichi/Conan to utilize Yukiko's disguising skills. All knowing entity? Nope. I'm just saying that those smart enough to hint Shinichi/Conan of all people should be smarter than she came off during the Vermouth arc climax (again, she's smarter than most of DC's cast, but I don't think she's at the uppermost echelon... hence why I find it difficult to believe that she can suddenly hint Shinichi/Conan). On 3/3/2017 at 2:04 PM, MeiTanteixX said: When Conan brought that for that situation, it was for the situation in his original plan, when he was captured as Haibara, not after all the setbacks would occur. He was lucky that Vermouth was forced to take him as a hostage (even after knowing he's not Haibara). Oh, he didn't get lucky. He knew that, since the BO itself hadn't already made a move on him, Vermouth wasn't out to kill him. Vermouth was the one who got lucky, here. Actually, that device worked for his backup plan as well as his initial plan—in fact, the backup had a greater chance of getting him what he wanted—Vermouth was incredibly careless to text Anokata before making sure that he didn't have any more aces up his sleeve. On 3/3/2017 at 2:04 PM, MeiTanteixX said: To me, at the moment, Asaka hasn't been introduced yet(or at the very least isn't one of the obvious Rum arc characters). "Mary = Asaka" was debunked ever since the Ripple series(File 972-974). Indeed, it was debunked—for me, I never really took that theory that seriously, so that case was just the final, "it's obviously not that," for me—thanks for correcting my assumption that you still held that position. If they haven't been already, will Asaka be introduced soon, then? But if they have, then who is it? On 3/3/2017 at 2:04 PM, MeiTanteixX said: She got it afterwards. Maybe she was in the hotel to meet Kohji(who she seems to have personal relationship with, of some sort)(it's the US, so it's not weird that Sharon would be there. She could have easily disguised herself as a cop and found/taken it from where Kohji hid it(inside the sink maybe?) As well. Could Koji be the dead husband that Sharon mentioned during Golden Apple (350–354/286–288)? Regardless of whether they were romantically involved, I'm surprised Gosho hasn't namedropped Sharon Vineyard somewhere in these past 40 Files. Then I'd be more on board with your theory. On 3/3/2017 at 2:04 PM, MeiTanteixX said: Rumi's two sides was being emphasised through Haibara's and Conan's behavior(the way I see it, it's identical to Vermouth's overall portrayal, and since Vermouth is Gosho's favorite BO member, I don't find it weird that he used Haibara to transmit two opinions(Haibara's and his own)). I'm surprised that Vermouth hasn't taken this chance to kill Shiho/Ai. It's the best chance she's had, in the whole series. She went around her own promise, before, because it was Shiho/Ai. Especially since Shiho/Ai has now let her guard down, I'm going to wonder why she doesn't do so, from every case onwards. On 3/3/2017 at 2:04 PM, MeiTanteixX said: Overall, I think that the fact Haibara's sense was overlooked makes it an even more vital clue to Rumi's identity, and I can't at the moment see Asaka as a BO member, with everything in mind. Also, the biggest indicator(along with the sense) is that Rumi is aware of Rum's artificial eye, when even Kuroda himself doesn't(who seems to have clashed with Rum) know about it, nonetheless his appearance(since he suspected Rumi). So far, we none other than BO members has shown knowledge of his prosthetic eye, which further supports the idea that Rumi is BO-affiliated. Connected to the BO? Sure. Knows about the artificial eye. Sure. Connected to Koji? Sure. Still doesn't convince me why it's then more likely that she's Vermouth, and not as likely why she's not Asaka. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 2:47 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said: She shouldn't need hints—she knows Conan's true identity. She knows who his mother is. She knows his mother's capabilities. Therefore, she should've been prepared for Shinichi/Conan to utilize Yukiko's disguising skills. Yeah, but still, it doesn't give her a reason to believe that he is involving her. She didn't even know that Heiji(the detective from the festival) was involved in his secret. The only allies she could assume he had was Agasa and Haibara(after overhearing their convo through the bugs). Again, the whole plan was based on the preconception that Conan wasn't "Silver Bullet" level. Quote Oh, he didn't get lucky. He knew that, since the BO itself hadn't already made a move on him, Vermouth wasn't out to kill him. Vermouth was the one who got lucky, here. I'm saying that he couldn't have predicted everything leading up to Vermouth taking him as a hostage(after Haibara ruined the plan). It was luck that got him to a situation where his plan was still in motion. Quote Actually, that device worked for his backup plan as well as his initial plan—in fact, the backup had a greater chance of getting him what he wanted—Vermouth was incredibly careless to text Anokata before making sure that he didn't have any more aces up his sleeve. Which again, Conan was lucky that it worked in his favor at the end(after all the setbacks). Vermouth was definitely careless, but that shouldn't discredit her anymore than when Conan is careless. In the end though, the latest case is the only thing that truly showed that Rumi was one step ahead of Conan in the case(but keep in mind that it only partained to the main trick of the case, and not the rest of the details), since we didn't see her get as involved in the case as Kuroda and Conan. Quote Indeed, it was debunked—for me, I never really took that theory that seriously, so that case was just the final, "it's obviously not that," for me—thanks for correcting my assumption that you still held that position. No problem. Rumi still feels like an obvious Asaka suspect, and considering that she's being treated as Asaka/Rum, I think that the option has diminished just very slightly(to the Asaka theory's credit though, she hasn't openly been addressed as Asaka/Rum yet, but she is still giving me the "Subaru" vibe). Quote If they haven't been already, will Asaka be introduced soon, then? But if they have, then who is it? I'm being open-minded to options, but the only I can think of is the bartender from Jii's bar(File 853-855), and even she seems irrelevant(and it's based on the idea that Asaka shrank and then aged). Otherwise, I'm betting on Asaka being an upcoming new character and also that she's behind the website. Quote Could Koji be the dead husband that Sharon mentioned during Golden Apple (350–354/286–288)? Regardless of whether they were romantically involved, I'm surprised Gosho hasn't namedropped Sharon Vineyard somewhere in these past 40 Files. Then I'd be more on board with your theory. That's one of my options. It would imply however that they had a secret marriage. The flashback with his grave doesn't seem fake(although clearly the story is, since Sharon is Chris), so it would also imply that she made a memorial of Kohji there(unless he was really buried in the US). I wouldn't mind them just being close friends(shogi buddies? :P). It's never too late to hint at things(Kuroda was introduced before the Tsutomu mystery started after all)[I know, I just assumed the Tsutomu theory as fact, but I can't help how obvious it seems now]. Quote I'm surprised that Vermouth hasn't taken this chance to kill Shiho/Ai. It's the best chance she's had, in the whole series. She went around her own promise, before, because it was Shiho/Ai. Especially since Shiho/Ai has now let her guard down, I'm going to wonder why she doesn't do so, from every case onwards. Maybe we are looking at the start to some new development in their relationship, seeing as Haibara is growing attached to Rumi. Quote Connected to the BO? Sure. Knows about the artificial eye. Sure. Connected to Koji? Sure. Still doesn't convince me why it's then more likely that she's Vermouth, and not as likely why she's not Asaka. If we base it on facts alone, the only living female that Haibara has sensed the BO smell from is Vermouth alone(hence the likelihood pointing at her favor at the moment). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DCUniverseAficionado 252 Report post Posted March 3, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 3:31 PM, MeiTanteixX said: Yeah, but still, it doesn't give her a reason to believe that he is involving her. She didn't even know that Heiji(the detective from the festival) was involved in his secret. The only allies she could assume he had was Agasa and Haibara(after overhearing their convo through the bugs). Again, the whole plan was based on the preconception that Conan wasn't "Silver Bullet" level. In that particular situation? Maybe, but even so, it was very unwise of her (and even more so if she's as intelligent as Rumi comes off to me). Perhaps not Heiji, specifically, but it would've been wiser for her to anticipate a 3rd and 4th compatriot of Shinichi's/Conan's (and, again, even more so if she's as intelligent as Rumi comes off to me). On 3/3/2017 at 3:31 PM, MeiTanteixX said: I'm saying that he couldn't have predicted everything leading up to Vermouth taking him as a hostage(after Haibara ruined the plan). It was luck that got him to a situation where his plan was still in motion. Which again, Conan was lucky that it worked in his favor at the end(after all the setbacks). Vermouth was definitely careless, but that shouldn't discredit her anymore than when Conan is careless. In the end though, the latest case is the only thing that truly showed that Rumi was one step ahead of Conan in the case(but keep in mind that it only partained to the main trick of the case, and not the rest of the details), since we didn't see her get as involved in the case as Kuroda and Conan. Even if you solely attribute it to luck, he was standing on more solid ground than her (looming specter of the BO above Shinichi/Conan and everyone connected to him aside). Her job entails situations like this—Shinichi's/Conan's a civilian. Intellects, aside, she's the one with tons of experience, and the capability to have more experience than pretty much everyone else. No need to go any further than that when it's Shinichi/Conan you're hinting. But, again, it's him she's hinting. So, suddenly, Vermouth has jumped from smart but below his level to smart and above his level. In the 10 cases she's appeared in since the Full Moon Showdown, I don't think there's been any indication that she's gotten that smart. During this period, she even got outwitted again with a less elaborate and more impromptu, riskier plan by Shinichi/Conan. Let's be clear—she's by no means dumb... but she's not at that level. On 3/3/2017 at 3:31 PM, MeiTanteixX said: I'm being open-minded to options, but the only I can think of is the bartender from Jii's bar(File 853-855), and even she seems irrelevant(and it's based on the idea that Asaka shrank and then aged). I'm betting on Asaka being... behind the website. Ah, those theories... I get where they come from, but... there's just no precedent. Unless it's revealed that Mary was shrunk 6-8 years ago and then grew from a elementary schooler into a middle schooler... and I really don't consider that a likely outcome, by any stretch. Whether Asaka turns out to be Rumi or not, I think we can agree on that. On 3/3/2017 at 3:31 PM, MeiTanteixX said: That's one of my options. It would imply however that they had a secret marriage. The flashback with his grave doesn't seem fake(although clearly the story is, since Sharon is Chris), so it would also imply that she made a memorial of Kohji there(unless he was really buried in the US). I wouldn't mind them just being close friends(shogi buddies? :P). It's never too late to hint at things(Kuroda was introduced before the Tsutomu mystery started after all)[I know, I just assumed the Tsutomu theory as fact, but I can't help how obvious it seems now]. Oh, you mean just like how Atsushi was shown in the anime, but not in the manga, Vermouth visiting her husband's grave was shown in the anime, but not in the manga. Eh, maybe—it just seems to me that they'd have to be lovers, and/or Koji would've had to have done something for her like Shinichi and Ran did during Golden Apple. Well, he'd better do so soon—only 10 chapters remain until DC hits quadruple digits... if Rumi is Vermouth, I would've expected Sharon Vineyard namedrops and more mysterious expressions and reactions from her during A Song Called "ASACA" (954–957), considering why she and Rei/Toru/Bourbon are there. You mean you think Post-Coma Hyoue is actually Tsutomu Akai? That's my long-shot prediction, too. On 3/3/2017 at 3:31 PM, MeiTanteixX said: Maybe we are looking at the start to some new development in their relationship, seeing as Haibara is growing attached to Rumi. Eh, I'm not that sure... her efforts to kill Shiho/Ai seemed really personal (and recent, with Mystery Train (818–824/701–704)... which really wasn't that long ago, in terms of where we are, now)... and, for her part, Shiho/Ai must've feared and hated Vermouth. On 3/3/2017 at 3:31 PM, MeiTanteixX said: If we base it on facts alone, the only living female that Haibara has sensed the BO smell from is Vermouth alone(hence the likelihood pointing at her favor at the moment). The way her eyes are drawn during the intense parts... they don't seem to be drawn in the way Gosho draws the western eyes that characters like Vermouth have... they seem so hostile... even for Gin. So beady, and... like a scribbled tempest (best I can describe it, at the moment). It just strikes me as someone else—I'd prefer an actual new character have this distinctive edge, rather than it just be another side of Vermouth in her 2nd sensei disguise. The only female BO members we've had are: Shiho/Sherry, Akemi, Elena, Hidemi/Rena/Kir, Chianti, and Vermouth. That's six, with half of them being Miyanos—2 are dead, 1 is a traitor, 1 is a NOC, and 1 has questionable loyalty, leaving only 1 loyal member. Comparatively, there are 13 male BO members—7 dead, 1 escaped, 1 a former NOC, 1 a current NOC, and 3 loyal members. Shiho/Ai hasn't met so many of the BO's members, including Chianti, the only currently living and completely loyal member. Who knows, maybe this is indicative that this must be Vermouth... but maybe this could be someone she's never met, but someone who carries that implacable musk. If Rumi isn't Vermouth, then she has her own past. How'd she end up a bodyguard? How'd she get so strong and smart? What's her exact connection to Koji? There would need to be some explanations... including whether or not something happened to her that left her with that scent (a scent that we haven't anyone else beside Shiho/Ai detect, so we don't know if only she can detect it). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted March 4, 2017 On 3/3/2017 at 9:21 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said: Her job entails situations like this—Shinichi's/Conan's a civilian. Intellects, aside, she's the one with tons of experience, and the capability to have more experience than pretty much everyone else. Still, she's dealing with a completely different opponent that she has never fought against before,... a teen in a child's body, who should be limited in every way, which makes it easier for her to underestimate his capabilities(yet he proved how well he could utilize his surroundings[Gadgets, allies etc.] to the point that he could be a "Silver Bullet"). Quote No need to go any further than that when it's Shinichi/Conan you're hinting. But, again, it's him she's hinting. So, suddenly, Vermouth has jumped from smart but below his level to smart and above his level. In the 10 cases she's appeared in since the Full Moon Showdown, I don't think there's been any indication that she's gotten that smart. During this period, she even got outwitted again with a less elaborate and more impromptu, riskier plan by Shinichi/Conan. Let's be clear—she's by no means dumb... but she's not at that level. I think it's a big stretch to jump that far ahead with the assumption that Rumi is completely beyond Conan level, based on a one-time deal where she hints him(while being on equal ground with him(since in File 966, she had a time advantage)). Subaru has shown to be on Conan's level, and even he has hinted to Conan before. Sure, we didn't see what gave Rumi the idea with the balancing toy, but that doesn't really tell us the level she is in comparison to Conan(considering that she really just hinted at one part of the trick). I still don't think this is a matter of her getting smarter, but rather her revealing how smart she is. I still can't see her as inferior in any way during the Fullmoon showdown, just because Conan took her by surprise(due to her underestimation). Even a great genius can miscalculate and underestimate(especially when most of their data is controlled and limited[Since Conan made sure that she didn't know of his true awareness, and that she didn't find out about his secret counter-attack]). Quote Ah, those theories... I get where they come from, but... there's just no precedent. Unless it's revealed that Mary was shrunk 6-8 years ago and then grew from a elementary schooler into a middle schooler... and I really don't consider that a likely outcome, by any stretch. There's no precedent that proves otherwise either. I can't take Pisco's knowledge of the SB research process as fact, since he wasn't a research-mate. In the end, I prefer not to overlook any possibilities(just because they don't have a precedent). Quote Oh, you mean just like how Atsushi was shown in the anime, but not in the manga, Vermouth visiting her husband's grave was shown in the anime, but not in the manga. Actually, it's clearly shown in the manga too(File 351): I'm saying that this flashback scene is most likely real(why else make it so elaborate for a lie), but the story about Chris disguising as this mystery man is fake(Sharon was most likely covering up her secret meeting with this man, and since there was rumors about her bad relationship with Chris, this "meeting with a man" story probably hit the news and Sharon covered it up with the "chris" lie). Point is, that's not necessarily the husband's real appearance(because he might be someone else), and there was a memorial/grave of her husband in the US. Quote Well, he'd better do so soon—only 10 chapters remain until DC hits quadruple digits... if Rumi is Vermouth, I would've expected Sharon Vineyard namedrops and more mysterious expressions and reactions from her during A Song Called "ASACA" (954–957), considering why she and Rei/Toru/Bourbon are there. The criteria doesn't have to be Sharon's namedrop though. It can be anything Vermouth-related. And if he keeps the ambiguity of Rumi's identity beyond File 1000, I personally don't see any harm in that. That case served as a setup for her Rum plot involvement and Subaru investigation, but again, since we don't really know what's inside her pocket yet, it's still early to say that she's tied to Kohji(that's my current suspicion though(which can easily change if isn't a shard), since the shard shape matched well with the object shape). Quote Eh, I'm not that sure... her efforts to kill Shiho/Ai seemed really personal (and recent, with Mystery Train (818–824/701–704)... which really wasn't that long ago, in terms of where we are, now)... and, for her part, Shiho/Ai must've feared and hated Vermouth. Merely stating that idea. So far at least, Haibara might be starting to see Vermouth in a different light. Rumi hasn't shown any treatment of Haibara that would contradict with Vermouth's wish to want her dead, and she clearly respects her promise to Conan enough to not directly go back on her words. Quote The way her eyes are drawn during the intense parts... they don't seem to be drawn in the way Gosho draws the western eyes that characters like Vermouth have... they seem so hostile... even for Gin. So beady, and... like a scribbled tempest (best I can describe it, at the moment). It just strikes me as someone else It's a disguise, so she's bound to look different(no matter how the difference is portrayed). Subaru's closed-eye-style would also qualify as too unique of a style to be same guy that recently(at that time) "died". Quote The only female BO members we've had are: Shiho/Sherry, Akemi, Elena, Hidemi/Rena/Kir, Chianti, and Vermouth. That's six, with half of them being Miyanos—2 are dead, 1 is a traitor, 1 is a NOC, and 1 has questionable loyalty, leaving only 1 loyal member. Comparatively, there are 13 male BO members—7 dead, 1 escaped, 1 a former NOC, 1 a current NOC, and 3 loyal members. Shiho/Ai hasn't met so many of the BO's members, including Chianti, the only currently living and completely loyal member. Who knows, maybe this is indicative that this must be Vermouth... but maybe this could be someone she's never met, but someone who carries that implacable musk. And only one being currently alive that Haibara has sensed in the past. The rest isn't precedent, like how we knew beforehand that Akai was sensed by her(at the end of Contact with BO), to figure out that Subaru could be him. I'm pretty sure we would have been alluded to a character(that Haibara could sense) during the start of the Kohji/Rum plot if that was the case(like how File 948-950 setup Tsutomu(Kuroda), File 951-953 setup Wakita, File 954-957 setup Rumi(the way I see it), File 958-962 setup Iori(at least the ending part). I can't see Asaka as BO either(from everything that we know about her and the Kohji case). So far, Vermouth is most reasonable and fact-grounded option. Quote If Rumi isn't Vermouth, then she has her own past. How'd she end up a bodyguard? How'd she get so strong and smart? What's her exact connection to Koji? There would need to be some explanations... including whether or not something happened to her that left her with that scent (a scent that we haven't anyone else beside Shiho/Ai detect, so we don't know if only she can detect it). I already have this theory that Asaka is Kohji's bodyguard, who was assigned to Amanda, during their meeting. This makes everything fit together(Kohji being given the hand-mirror by someone, Asaka being seen with it[because it was originally hers] and Amanda's secret hiring). If Asaka was his bodyguard, then she could easily have more layers in her relationship with Kohji. Don't know where you are going with this(by suggesting another "Haibara"), but the only answer that would explain the BO trigger is if Asaka was a former BO member. Don't see why she would happen to get involved with a Shogi player, but regardless of that, it's a stretch to assume that Haibara can sense her(when we really have only a select few confirmed that she could sense: Pisco, Vermouth, Akemi, Rye, Bourbon). Since she couldn't sense Numabuchi(who she never met before), and openly expressed concern over that matter(as if it's worth considering), I think the pattern makes sense that she can only sense people that she has met at some point(Pisco met her as a baby, and Rei was seen with Elena before she left, so he could've met Shiho). Not stating this pattern as fact, but I feel like "Asaka" would be a random addition to this selected people that Haibara has sensed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gg1998 3 Report post Posted March 4, 2017 That "U"-glass thing is really illogical, cause after this fall of Rumi, that thing would surely have broken into pieces or injured Rumi's butt. Even after the fall the thing still is intact and Rumi's butt is as healthy as possible. The tear-drop of Rumi can also be interpreted as a tear of repentance. She talked about some horrible shit which she didn't mean in the first-place. Otherwise the tear makes no sense, if she was really honest about those words then the outcome would make no impact on her, but if she didn't mean those utterances then those things surely will take a toll on her psyche. Vermouth doesn't like to do such things when she's disguising as someone else, because playing a character who also plays another character isn't really helpful to a covert op. like her. If Rumi was Vermouth she would have behaved like any other worried and afraid elementary school teacher and would have let Kuroda or the inspector to take charge of the situation. If she was really Vermouth, then why she's ruffling her feathers with Kuroda? Does a police chief's undue attention help in any way, a BO covert op.? Why Kuroda was making statements as if he knew Rumi like the back-end of his palm? Why Rumi used her mastery of using reverse psychological trick to disarm the culprit despite knowing that Kuroda's one eye is on her all the time? Isn't it another nail in her coffin cause now not only Kuroda but Conan also is hot on her heels. The name Wakasa Rumi looks to be very provocative due to its resemblance with "ASACA RUM", if BO is so touchy feely about the very name Asaca, that they even went to investigate an unrelated old song's composer then why a BO operative would use that name? Won't it be counter productive cause too much attention would be generated and focused on that person? Why Rumi acts like a nincompoop when she isn't? We all have seen that in her disguises that Vermouth blends in with the character and avoids situations when her disguise could be blown up. Now she's doing exactly opposite in her supposed "Rumi" avatar. If Rumi has problems with her vision, then how come she can fight off the goons and elbow the golfer with exact precision? Her spectacles also don't look as a part of the disguise, infact her specs looks like to be a part of her daily life. If she can fight and do all other stuff with them, then I'm sure it's her specs and they are not disguise. Why the sudden change in Haibara's attitude towards Rumi? If she felt BO pressure from her? But then she felt the pressure when she reacted to the word "Prosthetic", Haibara in general felt her presence to be neutral. And then when Conan is going in for the kill she dissuades him, probably Haibara has already figured out Rumi's identity and wants to take a swift revenge on Conan for his antics in Subaru-arc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MeiTanteixX 184 Report post Posted March 4, 2017 On 3/4/2017 at 4:58 AM, gg1998 said: That "U"-glass thing is really illogical, cause after this fall of Rumi, that thing would surely have broken into pieces or injured Rumi's butt. Even after the fall the thing still is intact and Rumi's butt is as healthy as possible. Well, we still don't know what it is. But we can't deny how similar that shape is to that shard(more so then to a Shogi tile). Whatever it is, it's connected to her grudge on Rum. Before the details of the shape was shown, I was betting on Rum killing Sharon's husband(which would be an awaited development to Vermouth's backstory). Quote The tear-drop of Rumi can also be interpreted as a tear of repentance. She talked about some horrible shit which she didn't mean in the first-place. Otherwise the tear makes no sense, if she was really honest about those words then the outcome would make no impact on her, but if she didn't mean those utterances then those things surely will take a toll on her psyche. Vermouth doesn't like to do such things when she's disguising as someone else, because playing a character who also plays another character isn't really helpful to a covert op. like her. If Rumi was Vermouth she would have behaved like any other worried and afraid elementary school teacher and would have let Kuroda or the inspector to take charge of the situation. The way I see the "stab her" antics, it's that she obviously wasn't gonna hurt Ayumi, but the idea that she's capable of killing children isn't false either. You have to be a bigger monster to overwhelm another. This monster however is Vermouth, and she has another side to her character, a caring and kind side, which was shown through her genuine worry for Ayumi, that was able to move even the suspecting Haibara. Quote If she was really Vermouth, then why she's ruffling her feathers with Kuroda? Does a police chief's undue attention help in any way, a BO covert op.? I mentioned this before, but when you create a new identity from scratch, I can imagine it's very hard to stay on character, when there's no real "script" to follow. Unintentionally, bits of your true self can easily slip out. The whole deal with Kuroda was her being suspicious enough to the point that she was trying to provoke a confirmation to her suspicion from Kuroda, that he came because of her(meaning that he came because he thinks she's the prime suspect Asaka and that he's involved in the Kohji case somehow). The method she did it with was an effective one, and it clearly had her true self mixed with it. Quote Why Kuroda was making statements as if he knew Rumi like the back-end of his palm? Because he assumed she's Asaka, including that Asaka is Rum(meaning that if he was involved, he has never met Asaka and Rum's appearance doesn't contradict the ambiguous Asaka photo). Kuroda implied that he clashed with Rum at some point("that person" was definitely referring to Rum, and it was left gender neutral so that we wouldn't assume that Rum is either gender). Quote Why Rumi used her mastery of using reverse psychological trick to disarm the culprit despite knowing that Kuroda's one eye is on her all the time? Isn't it another nail in her coffin cause now not only Kuroda but Conan also is hot on her heels. Conan hasn't shown indications that would make her believe that he's onto her(which I'm sure she's waiting for, since she is clearly trying to provoke a reaction from him with her name). No one obviously heard her, since she went close enough to the culprit that only he could hear her(And I bet she was gonna pull off a "Subaru"). Quote The name Wakasa Rumi looks to be very provocative due to its resemblance with "ASACA RUM", if BO is so touchy feely about the very name Asaca, that they even went to investigate an unrelated old song's composer then why a BO operative would use that name? Won't it be counter productive cause too much attention would be generated and focused on that person? Only if that name slips out of the elementary school environment. Quote If she can fight and do all other stuff with them, then I'm sure it's her specs and they are not disguise. Or, she's simply that good. Incompatible glasses doesn't mean blindness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gg1998 3 Report post Posted March 4, 2017 Quote Well, we still don't know what it is. But we can't deny how similar that shape is to that shard(more so then to a Shogi tile). Whatever it is, it's connected to her grudge on Rum. Before the details of the shape was shown, I was betting on Rum killing Sharon's husband(which would be an awaited development to Vermouth's backstory). That's why I said that after the fall, glass piece theory is negated. Quote The way I see the "stab her" antics, it's that she obviously wasn't gonna hurt Ayumi, but the idea that she's capable of killing children isn't false either. You have to be a bigger monster to overwhelm another. This monster however is Vermouth, and she has another side to her character, a caring and kind side, which was shown through her genuine worry for Ayumi, that was able to move even the suspecting Haibara. It's irrational/self-defeating for Vermouth to behave as you have mentioned above. I'll give you the reason, Vermouth's goal isn't to become the next Christopher Reeve, who famously said, that his director told him to forget about the dual role and think like, "You're playing Superman, who is playing Clerk Kent." So here our great actress is playing the role of Wakasa Rumi, where Wakasa Rumi is playing the beast mode. I think Vermouth knows the difference between being Chris Reeve and being Peggy Tylor. Quote I mentioned this before, but when you create a new identity from scratch, I can imagine it's very hard to stay on character, when there's no real "script" to follow. Unintentionally, bits of your true self can easily slip out. The whole deal with Kuroda was her being suspicious enough to the point that she was trying to provoke a confirmation to her suspicion from Kuroda, that he came because of her(meaning that he came because he thinks she's the prime suspect Asaka and that he's involved in the Kohji case somehow). The method she did it with was an effective one, and it clearly had her true self mixed with it. Again resorting to wishful thinking, are we? If there's no real script then why Rumi flips and flops between a beast and nincompoop? Why she appears to be dumb when in reality she isn't? If I assume her to be Vermouth, then the moment she saw Kuroda in the tent, she would be alert and need to act normal. Just to ensure ,someone is suspecting her or not, she would never behave in a suspicious manner, it's a self defeating approach, it will only doom her mission. Cause if she is really Vermouth she doesn't need a confirmation by her antics, she already knows it, cause the other camping party was a regular bunch and the DB is a regular kiddy group, so it leaves only her, Conan and Hibara. But Conan and Hibara are just two kids, why the prefectural chief would take an interest in them? But the way Kuroda mentioned One-eye to her, it was clear like daylight that Kuroda was suspecting her, still she reacts to draw more suspicion, is she a stupid drunk or the very mention of Rum ticks her off? Neither looks be Vermouth's trait cause Vermouth is a cool and calculating person not a hot head. Quote Because he assumed she's Asaka, including that Asaka is Rum(meaning that if he was involved, he has never met Asaka and Rum's appearance doesn't contradict the ambiguous Asaka photo). Kuroda implied that he clashed with Rum at some point("that person" was definitely referring to Rum, and it was left gender neutral so that we wouldn't assume that Rum is either gender). No, Kuroda isn't illogical too. Kuroda's problem with this person was her name, cause her name clearly draws attention towards the Koji case and her mannerisms and exploits tell us that she's a more than it meets the eye. That's why Kuroda is behind her and if anyone wanted to provoke the other to verify his suspicion then it was Kuroda, he constantly provoked her by "One eye" and Rumi gave him a piece of her mind thus justifying his suspicion, here Kuroda was the master player not Rumi. Quote Because he assumed she's Asaka, including that Asaka is Rum(meaning that if he was involved, he has never met Asaka and Rum's appearance doesn't contradict the ambiguous Asaka photo). Kuroda implied that he clashed with Rum at some point("that person" was definitely referring to Rum, and it was left gender neutral so that we wouldn't assume that Rum is either gender). Yup she was going to pull off a Subaru, but the culprit could still spill the beans to Kuroda and the Keiji-san, so she risked it, unlike Vermouth, who would have offered herself to be the hostage instead of Ayumi and would have behaved like another worried school teacher, not a battle hardened psychologist. Quote Only if that name slips out of the elementary school environment. It has already slipped out and thanks to her own undoing. Forget about the two high-profile cases that she has solved with her Kodomo-group? In that universe all the connected parties are fully aware of her name. Quote Only if that name slips out of the elementary school environment. No, she has had those glasses for a long time, that's why she can do stuff with ease. From personal experience I know that if the power of the glass and eye requirement don't match then it screws up one's eyes. Vermouth intentionally won't do anything to hurt her eyes, btw those specs are powerful, cause the way Rumi is portrayed gives me that impression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
