Discussion Thread about Rum

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

13 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

More or less the order is right, but perhaps Rum did not know how many people were in the room, so he decided to wait on it since he heard no scream. Rather than exposing himself, he would wait for a minute maybe while texting someone. Kohji, for his part would want to hide the mirror in his already messy room since it wouldn't make sense for a cut mirror to be on his body or Amanda's. So he tries his best to hide it by moving to his room, for it is the best option he could've think so in his state. Rum also knows about APTX way of killing, so since he is short on time and don't want to implicate another culprit is involved in the crime by using a tool that is not compatible with Asaca (Asaca perhaps brought his/her weapon and  beaten Kohji with it, so using another tool would implicate another person. Hence it is best to use APTX in order to ensure nothing traces back to him).

Those are all really reasonable explanations for the things I pointed out. I hope we learn more details of the Kohji case soon!

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

9 hours ago, gg1998 said:

Here the two assumption you are making which seem to be a little contentious 

1) Even if Amanda exposed Rum's name to Kohji, how was he so sure that Rum has done it in the first place, his first instinct would be to implicate Asaka.

2) So you're saying that Kohji already cut the mirror in Amanda's bathroom but then why the taps were left opened in Kohji's bathroom?(Okiya Subaru confirms this while he was asking whereabouts of the clenched scissors case.)3) 

 

Again, when Asaca attacked Kohji, he knew once he saw Amanda's body that it was Rum because of Rum MO. Something that perhaps he was told off by Amanda as well. Regarding the 2nd point, maybe Kohji was washing his face before being attacked by Asaca. However after the fight, he runs to Amanda's room to cut the mirror. And later he comes back to his room leaving the taps open, and if either Asaca or Rum closed it, then they would higher up the chances of leaving trail behind.

[gg1998 3]

10 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Again, when Asaca attacked Kohji, he knew once he saw Amanda's body that it was Rum because of Rum MO. Something that perhaps he was told off by Amanda as well. Regarding the 2nd point, maybe Kohji was washing his face before being attacked by Asaca. However after the fight, he runs to Amanda's room to cut the mirror. And later he comes back to his room leaving the taps open, and if either Asaca or Rum closed it, then they would higher up the chances of leaving trail behind.

You need a constant flow of Water to cut the mirror. That's what it is as explained in the end of the chapter. So if Kohji was dying and almost using his last bit of strength to cut the mirror he must have opened the taps in the place where he was cutting the mirror. According to you it was Amanda's room(i.e her bathroom) now if Kohji scrambled out of there, closing the taps,while holding the mirror in his left hand and the scissors in his dominant hand(right hand) reaches his room. Throws away the mirror, throws away the scissors, throws away a bunch of stuff to the ground. Doing all these while he's poisoned by APT which works almost instantly. See where the problem is your theory?

Also why did he think it was Rum, if Asaka attacked him and he saw Amanda's corpse then he would have implicated Asaka, because he didn't know about Rum's involvement.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

On 5/11/2017 at 6:53 AM, gg1998 said:

You need a constant flow of Water to cut the mirror. That's what it is as explained in the end of the chapter. So if Kohji was dying and almost using his last bit of strength to cut the mirror he must have opened the taps in the place where he was cutting the mirror. According to you it was Amanda's room(i.e her bathroom) now if Kohji scrambled out of there, closing the taps,while holding the mirror in his left hand and the scissors in his dominant hand(right hand) reaches his room. Throws away the mirror, throws away the scissors, throws away a bunch of stuff to the ground. Doing all these while he's poisoned by APT which works almost instantly. See where the problem is your theory?

Also why did he think it was Rum, if Asaka attacked him and he saw Amanda's corpse then he would have implicated Asaka, because he didn't know about Rum's involvement.

You make possible flaws, however he wan't poisoned before throwing away the stuff. Rather it was after, and don't forget it was 17 years ago when Shiho was 1 year old, so most likely it was a prototype that had longer time to kill. And AGAIN he knew it was Rum because Amanda had slipped the information about Rum's MO (way of killing), perhaps because there was no implication of a force on the body hence he guessed it would be a prototype drug, therefore Rum. In contrast to Asaca who is more aggressive in their way of killing.

[gg1998 3]

7 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

You make possible flaws, however he wan't poisoned before throwing away the stuff. Rather it was after, and don't forget it was 17 years ago when Shiho was 1 year old, so most likely it was a prototype that had longer time to kill. And AGAIN he knew it was Rum because Amanda had slipped the information about Rum's MO (way of killing), perhaps because there was no implication of a force on the body hence he guessed it would be a prototype drug, therefore Rum. In contrast to Asaca who is more aggressive in their way of killing.

You're the one making possible flawed/contradictory assumptions in the first place.

1. Why Taps in Kohji's bathroom was opened while they weren't opened in Amanda's bathroom? The answer to this question is that Kohji created his dying message in his bathroom not in Amanda's. That means he was attacked and killed in his room not in Amanda's. 
2. You're assuming that the prototype took longer time to kill. Where is it verified? Don't invent facts to suit your theory.
3. For argument's sake let's assume that Amanda told him about Rum, but then according to You logic Asaca was Kohji's killer. Then why did Kohji need to cut the extra "U" in the dying message? If Asaca and Rum were related implicating anyone would be fine as the other can easily be traced, now Kohji used his last strength to implicate a person whose Code name(not even real name) is only known to a select few. How would you like to explain it?
4. Kohji wasn't wearing gloves, so why his fingerprint wasn't found in the Amanda's room?
5. Why on the other hand Amanda's fingerprint were found in Kohji's room?

 

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

4 hours ago, gg1998 said:

You're the one making possible flawed/contradictory assumptions in the first place.

1. Why Taps in Kohji's bathroom was opened while they weren't opened in Amanda's bathroom? The answer to this question is that Kohji created his dying message in his bathroom not in Amanda's. That means he was attacked and killed in his room not in Amanda's. 
2. You're assuming that the prototype took longer time to kill. Where is it verified? Don't invent facts to suit your theory.
3. For argument's sake let's assume that Amanda told him about Rum, but then according to You logic Asaca was Kohji's killer. Then why did Kohji need to cut the extra "U" in the dying message? If Asaca and Rum were related implicating anyone would be fine as the other can easily be traced, now Kohji used his last strength to implicate a person whose Code name(not even real name) is only known to a select few. How would you like to explain it?
4. Kohji wasn't wearing gloves, so why his fingerprint wasn't found in the Amanda's room?
5. Why on the other hand Amanda's fingerprint were found in Kohji's room?

 

1. Your dwelling on the taps in the bathroom in Kohji's room, don't forget the taps in Amanda's were open as well. 

2. I'm not inventing facts, I'm merely assuming the prototype had longer time to take effects. I might be wrong, and you might be wrong, it is only up to Gosho to answer it. So don't point fingers where everything we say is also possible

3. The fact that he mentioned the existence of such name, he knew it would reach the CIA or FBI.

4. I haven't read according to you, whether Kohji's fingerprints were left or not. Assuming it is as you say, either they were cleaned by Rum. Or he simply didn't touch anything that left his fingerprints (the doorknob was touched by every visitor so his would be missed with, and the taps again may have been erased due to water)

5. Because she visited him on several occasions.

While Holmes did say do not invent facts to suit theories, it is necessary to assume many theories and find the most suitable one. So it is not about inventing facts, but assuming the most suitable facts for temporarily uncertain facts  

[MeiTanteixX 184]

27 minutes ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

1. Your dwelling on the taps in the bathroom in Kohji's room, don't forget the taps in Amanda's were open as well. 

nope, it wasn't. Only Kohji's room had the tap open.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

21 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

nope, it wasn't. Only Kohji's room had the tap open.

I may have remembered incorrectly, however the alternative would be that Kohji was beaten in his room but knocked out Asaca and then left the evidence and ran to Amanda's room (not sure why but could've wanted to hold her hostage or something) and then Asaca went after him ran off and Rum went after him and killed him. It is not like I'm enforcing my theory or anything, don't forget it may be sensible but from the start it is a weak one and I'm trying to find a closure to it. It may be all wrong, and might be somewhat right or an alternative to the one truth. It is merely an assumption in a sensible way.

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

I just had a thought. Remember that Kohji was associated with the Akai family, and the Akai family patriarch was, in turn, associated with the Black Organization. Imagine this scenario.

 

Kohji is told by Akai's father that Rum has been sent to kill Amanda before she can deliver the information she has to American authorities. Recognizing that the Organization must be brought down, as well as wanting to protect Amanda's life, Kohji goes do warn her but he doesn't know who Rum is so he can only give her a vague warning that someone called Rum means to kill her. Rum, who had already established a cover as Asaka, hears this warning and decides that he/she must eliminate Kohji before Kohji can figure out that Asaka=Rum and warn Amanda. At this point, Asaka/Rum attacks Kohji first and gives him the prototype APTX after a struggle. Thinking Kohji dead, Asaka/Rum leaves in a hurry to find Amanda, deciding the time is right to make his/her move to kill the would-be informant before any other unforeseen hindrances appear. Kohji knows he's dying and cannot find Amanda before Asaka/Rum does so he uses his last moments before succumbing to the poison to leave a dying message in hopes that Amanda might find him before Asaka/Rum finds her. His message, of course, being "ASACA RUM" to warn Amanda that her trusted bodyguard is actually the ruthless killer bent on destroying her. Alas, either Amanda fails to find Kohji's last message to her or, by the time she finds it, it is too late and Asaka/Rum had already closed in on her.

 

If you think about it, this scenario answers a lot of questions. Why would Kohji leave a dying message implicating Rum when nobody should even realize Rum exists? Since the message does implicate Rum, it was obviously intended for someone who was aware of Rum and could benefit from the knowledge that Asaka was Rum, but who could that be (I actually have another possible theory on who was the intended recipient of the dying message, which I shall address momentarily)? Why would the middle Akai child have such strong affection toward Kohji if he was nothing but a victim whose murder investigation his father was involved in somehow? So many questions, cleared up by this.

 

Oh, and regarding how long it takes for APTX to kill, we can use Shinichi's transformation into Conan as a frame of reference. I'm order to revert his body to a childlike state, the poison had to reach and take effect on the majority of the cells in his body. Well, even for someone who was not lucky enough to survive as Conan did, in order to kill them, the poison stil must spread throughout most of the body and have time to complete it's devastating work. For that reason, until we see definitive proof to contrary, it is safe to estimate that death by APTX would take approximately the same amount of time as Conan's transformation. As long as the change took, it is perfectly within reason that Rum could have ave rushed away thinking Kohji dead while Kohji still had time to leave his message.

 

Now, I mentioned another possible theory about who Kohji's message might have been for if not Amanda. As I mentioned earlier, it is apparent that there are ties between Kohji and the Akai family. If the above theory turns out to be false, meaning it was not Akai Sr. who warned Kohji about Rum in the first place, then perhaps this message was perhaps MEANT for the Akai patriarch, who still already had at least some basic knowledge of the Organization, with the purpose to identify, for the one man who would know what to do with the information, exactly who killed him and Amanda.

 

Also, I've seen the theory bounced around a lot that Asaka is not Rum but was a legitimate bodyguard who went into hiding after the double murder because he/she was the prime suspect and Vegas ha/she was waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on Rum, and it is now Asaka who keeps posting the information about the case in an attempt to draw Rum out. An interesting theoey, but even aside from the obvious question about the dying message (what could "ASACA RUM" mean if not saying that Asaka is Rum?), there is the question of how Asaka would have obtained law enforcement files on the case to release! Asaka is supposed to be on the run and hiding out from authorities, so how does he/she waltz into one or more law enforcement agencies to get all of the files relating to this unsolved case, in which he/she is the prime suspect? It seems ludicrous. I have another more likely theory on who is releasing the files. What if it is someone who worked on the case in some way? Someone who was at the time with a law enforcement agency? Someone who knew one or both of the victims and wanted to bring down their killer and the Organization he/she represents? In short, for those who don't see where I'm going with this, I think it is Akai's father who keeps leaking the case files online.

 

Just some thoughts for you guys to mull over. I'd love to hear any reactions to them.

[gg1998 3]

7 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

1. Your dwelling on the taps in the bathroom in Kohji's room, don't forget the taps in Amanda's were open as well. 

2. I'm not inventing facts, I'm merely assuming the prototype had longer time to take effects. I might be wrong, and you might be wrong, it is only up to Gosho to answer it. So don't point fingers where everything we say is also possible

3. The fact that he mentioned the existence of such name, he knew it would reach the CIA or FBI.

4. I haven't read according to you, whether Kohji's fingerprints were left or not. Assuming it is as you say, either they were cleaned by Rum. Or he simply didn't touch anything that left his fingerprints (the doorknob was touched by every visitor so his would be missed with, and the taps again may have been erased due to water)

5. Because she visited him on several occasions.

While Holmes did say do not invent facts to suit theories, it is necessary to assume many theories and find the most suitable one. So it is not about inventing facts, but assuming the most suitable facts for temporarily uncertain facts  

1) That's the pivotal point of the case. It indicates where the glass was cut in the first place.

2) Where is the basis of such assumption? You can't assume random things for the benefit of your version.

3) The question is why would he even know the name in the first place? Why he would even consider that the name is known to FBI and CIA? As far as we know, neither the CIA nor the FBI officially knows the existence of Rum. If your assumption was valid then Akai and/or Kir would have known about the Rum during their time as Fbi(Cia) agents.

4) If Kohji's fingerprints were cleared by Rum, then it means after Kohji dragged himself out of Amanda's room, Rum came in after that, so absence of Kohji's body would have put him on alert and if he was calm enough to rub-off the prints then why didn't he try to find Kohji and ensured his death.

5) Why Kohji would be visiting Amanda in the first place? The visit was already done as Amanda already had gone to Kohji's room and came back to her own room. There is no further purpose for them to visit each other again. 

6) Last but not the least, if Kohji had the strength to get back to his room, write the dying message, smash random things to hide the dying message, but didn't call the hotel lobby for help? I thought Shogi players are smarter than that.

7) What you're assuming is things which will help your version. You're not building up your theory based on established facts.

 

 

6 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

nope, it wasn't. Only Kohji's room had the tap open.

Thx for the one liner, MTX.

 

5 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

I just had a thought. Remember that Kohji was associated with the Akai family, and the Akai family patriarch was, in turn, associated with the Black Organization. Imagine this scenario.

 

Kohji is told by Akai's father that Rum has been sent to kill Amanda before she can deliver the information she has to American authorities. Recognizing that the Organization must be brought down, as well as wanting to protect Amanda's life, Kohji goes do warn her but he doesn't know who Rum is so he can only give her a vague warning that someone called Rum means to kill her. Rum, who had already established a cover as Asaka, hears this warning and decides that he/she must eliminate Kohji before Kohji can figure out that Asaka=Rum and warn Amanda. At this point, Asaka/Rum attacks Kohji first and gives him the prototype APTX after a struggle. Thinking Kohji dead, Asaka/Rum leaves in a hurry to find Amanda, deciding the time is right to make his/her move to kill the would-be informant before any other unforeseen hindrances appear. Kohji knows he's dying and cannot find Amanda before Asaka/Rum does so he uses his last moments before succumbing to the poison to leave a dying message in hopes that Amanda might find him before Asaka/Rum finds her. His message, of course, being "ASACA RUM" to warn Amanda that her trusted bodyguard is actually the ruthless killer bent on destroying her. Alas, either Amanda fails to find Kohji's last message to her or, by the time she finds it, it is too late and Asaka/Rum had already closed in on her.

 

If you think about it, this scenario answers a lot of questions. Why would Kohji leave a dying message implicating Rum when nobody should even realize Rum exists? Since the message does implicate Rum, it was obviously intended for someone who was aware of Rum and could benefit from the knowledge that Asaka was Rum, but who could that be (I actually have another possible theory on who was the intended recipient of the dying message, which I shall address momentarily)? Why would the middle Akai child have such strong affection toward Kohji if he was nothing but a victim whose murder investigation his father was involved in somehow? So many questions, cleared up by this.

 

Oh, and regarding how long it takes for APTX to kill, we can use Shinichi's transformation into Conan as a frame of reference. I'm order to revert his body to a childlike state, the poison had to reach and take effect on the majority of the cells in his body. Well, even for someone who was not lucky enough to survive as Conan did, in order to kill them, the poison stil must spread throughout most of the body and have time to complete it's devastating work. For that reason, until we see definitive proof to contrary, it is safe to estimate that death by APTX would take approximately the same amount of time as Conan's transformation. As long as the change took, it is perfectly within reason that Rum could have ave rushed away thinking Kohji dead while Kohji still had time to leave his message.

 

Now, I mentioned another possible theory about who Kohji's message might have been for if not Amanda. As I mentioned earlier, it is apparent that there are ties between Kohji and the Akai family. If the above theory turns out to be false, meaning it was not Akai Sr. who warned Kohji about Rum in the first place, then perhaps this message was perhaps MEANT for the Akai patriarch, who still already had at least some basic knowledge of the Organization, with the purpose to identify, for the one man who would know what to do with the information, exactly who killed him and Amanda.

 

Also, I've seen the theory bounced around a lot that Asaka is not Rum but was a legitimate bodyguard who went into hiding after the double murder because he/she was the prime suspect and Vegas ha/she was waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on Rum, and it is now Asaka who keeps posting the information about the case in an attempt to draw Rum out. An interesting theoey, but even aside from the obvious question about the dying message (what could "ASACA RUM" mean if not saying that Asaka is Rum?), there is the question of how Asaka would have obtained law enforcement files on the case to release! Asaka is supposed to be on the run and hiding out from authorities, so how does he/she waltz into one or more law enforcement agencies to get all of the files relating to this unsolved case, in which he/she is the prime suspect? It seems ludicrous. I have another more likely theory on who is releasing the files. What if it is someone who worked on the case in some way? Someone who was at the time with a law enforcement agency? Someone who knew one or both of the victims and wanted to bring down their killer and the Organization he/she represents? In short, for those who don't see where I'm going with this, I think it is Akai's father who keeps leaking the case files online.

 

Just some thoughts for you guys to mull over. I'd love to hear any reactions to them.

1. A horrendous mistake you seemed to have made. Akai family got tied with Haneda family after Sukichi was adopted in the haneda family 10 years ago. The Haneda Kohji case happened 17 years ago. At that point of time Akai and Haneda families were unrelated.
2. So would a CIA agent endanger a random Shogi player of Japan by asking him to prevent a possible top notch killer? I rate Tsutomu-san more rationally. BTW beware, if Subaru san hears that you're making his dad look idiotic, he might snipe out your brains.
3. Haneda didn't write the dying message after he was drowsed with APTX, because he was already injured and APTX on an injured person invites loss of consciousness. Then the dying message wouldn't have been there. Haneda ran to the bathroom, after getting bashed up, he wrote the dying message, threw the mirror to make sure nothing comes into the assailant's mind. Then Rum breaks in and kills him with APTX.
4. Not necessarily a person from FBI or CIA. A primary discoverer of the body could have photographed that stuff also. If it was a person from FBI or CIA then he/she would have all the resources to solve this case, he/she won't be so persevere in uploding the case's stuff.

[Serinox 127]

6 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

Akai family got tied with Haneda family after Sukichi was adopted in the haneda family 10 years ago. The Haneda Kohji case happened 17 years ago. At that point of time Akai and Haneda families were unrelated.

We can't know that for sure; Shukichi speaks with high respect of Koji and his motto and the way he does it, it seems like the have met in the past and he knew him well. Of course, that's not set in stone, but it is entirely possible that Koji and Shukichi became acquainted some 17-20 years ago when Shukichi was in elementary school and they adopted kind of an mentor/student relationship and that Koji was the one who Shukichi into shogi.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

42 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

1) That's the pivotal point of the case. It indicates where the glass was cut in the first place.

2) Where is the basis of such assumption? You can't assume random things for the benefit of your version.

3) The question is why would he even know the name in the first place? Why he would even consider that the name is known to FBI and CIA? As far as we know, neither the CIA nor the FBI officially knows the existence of Rum. If your assumption was valid then Akai and/or Kir would have known about the Rum during their time as Fbi(Cia) agents.

4) If Kohji's fingerprints were cleared by Rum, then it means after Kohji dragged himself out of Amanda's room, Rum came in after that, so absence of Kohji's body would have put him on alert and if he was calm enough to rub-off the prints then why didn't he try to find Kohji and ensured his death.

5) Why Kohji would be visiting Amanda in the first place? The visit was already done as Amanda already had gone to Kohji's room and came back to her own room. There is no further purpose for them to visit each other again. 

6) Last but not the least, if Kohji had the strength to get back to his room, write the dying message, smash random things to hide the dying message, but didn't call the hotel lobby for help? I thought Shogi players are smarter than that.

7) What you're assuming is things which will help your version. You're not building up your theory based on established facts.

 

1. It is, the order was at fault perhaps.

2. The basis, is that it was developed in a 17-20 years of process. It is a mere speculation that a drug was time consuming but became instant years later, hence it truly may be wrong but nonetheless it is an assumption and you don't have to believe it.

3. You said 'officially', hence some friends of Amanda knows of the existence of Rum and she told him about that fact. Again this is a mere guess.

4. Because he knew Rum is about to die either ways, weak I know but again only a guess. No concrete evidence based on.

5. It would indicate that he knew that Asaca worked on her/his own, and he went to the next person he knew.

6. Because he needed a reliable evidence to leave behind, and not another would be corpse, that is if he did not suspect the lobby workers.

7. True, again this is a mere theory with no established facts. So it can be criticized, and blamed. However it is an idea whether it is true or not.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

2 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

I just had a thought. Remember that Kohji was associated with the Akai family, and the Akai family patriarch was, in turn, associated with the Black Organization. Imagine this scenario.

 

Kohji is told by Akai's father that Rum has been sent to kill Amanda before she can deliver the information she has to American authorities. Recognizing that the Organization must be brought down, as well as wanting to protect Amanda's life, Kohji goes do warn her but he doesn't know who Rum is so he can only give her a vague warning that someone called Rum means to kill her. Rum, who had already established a cover as Asaka, hears this warning and decides that he/she must eliminate Kohji before Kohji can figure out that Asaka=Rum and warn Amanda. At this point, Asaka/Rum attacks Kohji first and gives him the prototype APTX after a struggle. Thinking Kohji dead, Asaka/Rum leaves in a hurry to find Amanda, deciding the time is right to make his/her move to kill the would-be informant before any other unforeseen hindrances appear. Kohji knows he's dying and cannot find Amanda before Asaka/Rum does so he uses his last moments before succumbing to the poison to leave a dying message in hopes that Amanda might find him before Asaka/Rum finds her. His message, of course, being "ASACA RUM" to warn Amanda that her trusted bodyguard is actually the ruthless killer bent on destroying her. Alas, either Amanda fails to find Kohji's last message to her or, by the time she finds it, it is too late and Asaka/Rum had already closed in on her.

 

If you think about it, this scenario answers a lot of questions. Why would Kohji leave a dying message implicating Rum when nobody should even realize Rum exists? Since the message does implicate Rum, it was obviously intended for someone who was aware of Rum and could benefit from the knowledge that Asaka was Rum, but who could that be (I actually have another possible theory on who was the intended recipient of the dying message, which I shall address momentarily)? Why would the middle Akai child have such strong affection toward Kohji if he was nothing but a victim whose murder investigation his father was involved in somehow? So many questions, cleared up by this.

 

Oh, and regarding how long it takes for APTX to kill, we can use Shinichi's transformation into Conan as a frame of reference. I'm order to revert his body to a childlike state, the poison had to reach and take effect on the majority of the cells in his body. Well, even for someone who was not lucky enough to survive as Conan did, in order to kill them, the poison stil must spread throughout most of the body and have time to complete it's devastating work. For that reason, until we see definitive proof to contrary, it is safe to estimate that death by APTX would take approximately the same amount of time as Conan's transformation. As long as the change took, it is perfectly within reason that Rum could have ave rushed away thinking Kohji dead while Kohji still had time to leave his message.

Interesting, but there's one problem you haven't explained...

Why was Kohji's room left as a mess, but not Amanda's, if Kohji was killed before her?

 

2 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Now, I mentioned another possible theory about who Kohji's message might have been for if not Amanda. As I mentioned earlier, it is apparent that there are ties between Kohji and the Akai family. If the above theory turns out to be false, meaning it was not Akai Sr. who warned Kohji about Rum in the first place, then perhaps this message was perhaps MEANT for the Akai patriarch, who still already had at least some basic knowledge of the Organization, with the purpose to identify, for the one man who would know what to do with the information, exactly who killed him and Amanda.

So you're saying that Amanda told Kohji, while knowing that Kohji has connections to a non-FBI-agent detective(Tsutomu)? Why would she rely on Kohji's non-FBI friend if she herself has ties to both FBI and CIA? Would that mean that Asaka killed Amanda first(after hearing her tell Kohji)?

 

2 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Also, I've seen the theory bounced around a lot that Asaka is not Rum but was a legitimate bodyguard who went into hiding after the double murder because he/she was the prime suspect and Vegas ha/she was waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on Rum, and it is now Asaka who keeps posting the information about the case in an attempt to draw Rum out. An interesting theoey, but even aside from the obvious question about the dying message (what could "ASACA RUM" mean if not saying that Asaka is Rum?), there is the question of how Asaka would have obtained law enforcement files on the case to release! Asaka is supposed to be on the run and hiding out from authorities, so how does he/she waltz into one or more law enforcement agencies to get all of the files relating to this unsolved case, in which he/she is the prime suspect? It seems ludicrous

There's no info in the website that would be exclusive to the law enforcement agancies. Like Agasa said, there was "minute-details" in it, implying that it's info that only someone that was there could get. As for the dying message, "CARASUMA" is still a viable reading(meaning that Kohji picked up something from the perpetrator, like the family crest, that pointed to the "Karasuma" family).

 

2 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

 I have another more likely theory on who is releasing the files. What if it is someone who worked on the case in some way? Someone who was at the time with a law enforcement agency? Someone who knew one or both of the victims and wanted to bring down their killer and the Organization he/she represents? In short, for those who don't see where I'm going with this, I think it is Akai's father who keeps leaking the case files online.

Possible... less likely however if Tsutomu is Kuroda.

 

2 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Just some thoughts for you guys to mull over. I'd love to hear any reactions to them.

 Hope to get your reaction now

[gg1998 3]

2 hours ago, Serinox said:

We can't know that for sure; Shukichi speaks with high respect of Koji and his motto and the way he does it, it seems like the have met in the past and he knew him well. Of course, that's not set in stone, but it is entirely possible that Koji and Shukichi became acquainted some 17-20 years ago when Shukichi was in elementary school and they adopted kind of an mentor/student relationship and that Koji was the one who Shukichi into shogi.

Still, even if Kohji and Kichi had some sort of kinship, does it imply that Tsutomu-san would be using Kohji(A shogi player) as Amanda's shield against Rum? You might have mistaken my point @Serinox I only implied that the officially Haneda and akai family got together around 10 years ago.

1 hour ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

1. It is, the order was at fault perhaps.

2. The basis, is that it was developed in a 17-20 years of process. It is a mere speculation that a drug was time consuming but became instant years later, hence it truly may be wrong but nonetheless it is an assumption and you don't have to believe it.

3. You said 'officially', hence some friends of Amanda knows of the existence of Rum and she told him about that fact. Again this is a mere guess.

4. Because he knew Rum is about to die either ways, weak I know but again only a guess. No concrete evidence based on.

5. It would indicate that he knew that Asaca worked on her/his own, and he went to the next person he knew.

6. Because he needed a reliable evidence to leave behind, and not another would be corpse, that is if he did not suspect the lobby workers.

7. True, again this is a mere theory with no established facts. So it can be criticized, and blamed. However it is an idea whether it is true or not.

1. There's no order, the glass was cut in Kohji's bathroom. End of the story, period.
2. Still it's a mere speculation, if you're giving a theory then those stuff can't be used. If you're speculating, then it's fine.
3. Officially means the Officials of FBI and CIA. You're again assuming Amanda knew about Rum in the first place but we have no evidence to back it up, even if she knew about it and she passed on the info, then during the time of briefing kai and Kir prior to their infiltration, their respective agencies would have given them a small tip about Rum, because that's a vital information. But the discovery of the person named Rum working in Bo, took Akai and Kir by surprise. If they had prior knowledge about Rum then this reaction wouldn't have come into play.
4. It's a guess so nothing can be said, but quite unlikely.
5. I don't understand your point.
6. He was suffering yet had enough stamina to get out of that room, then why he didn't call for help?Mind it ,according to your theory he was attacked, he wrote the dying message, took the mirror also took the scissors, staggered out of the room, went to his room, broke a bunch of stuff to shield the dying message and then died. If he had stamina of doing all these things with a bashed up face and other debilitating injuries, why didn't he call for help?

@MeiTanteixX WAKASA RUMI, Chikara Katsumata are also viable options along with CARASUMA.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

23 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

 

1. There's no order, the glass was cut in Kohji's bathroom. End of the story, period.
2. Still it's a mere speculation, if you're giving a theory then those stuff can't be used. If you're speculating, then it's fine.
3. Officially means the Officials of FBI and CIA. You're again assuming Amanda knew about Rum in the first place but we have no evidence to back it up, even if she knew about it and she passed on the info, then during the time of briefing kai and Kir prior to their infiltration, their respective agencies would have given them a small tip about Rum, because that's a vital information. But the discovery of the person named Rum working in Bo, took Akai and Kir by surprise. If they had prior knowledge about Rum then this reaction wouldn't have come into play.
4. It's a guess so nothing can be said, but quite unlikely.
5. I don't understand your point.
6. He was suffering yet had enough stamina to get out of that room, then why he didn't call for help?Mind it ,according to your theory he was attacked, he wrote the dying message, took the mirror also took the scissors, staggered out of the room, went to his room, broke a bunch of stuff to shield the dying message and then died. If he had stamina of doing all these things with a bashed up face and other debilitating injuries, why didn't he call for help?

@MeiTanteixX WAKASA RUMI, Chikara Katsumata are also viable options along with CARASUMA.

You might be right, again this is my speculation. I can give many possible theory to many things you point out, but again nothing can be said is true or false unless Gosho confirms or denies them.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

@MeiTanteixX WAKASA RUMI, Chikara Katsumata are also viable options along with CARASUMA.

"CARASUMA" is the only name that fits with the message completely. The other ones lack letters. "Wakasa Rumi" is most likely just an alias made to look like the dying message, rather than it being what the message was saying.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

There is so much misinformation going on in this whole thread right now. Some of it is probably because the chapter went through three languages before it was translated into English leading to misunderstandings, but there appears to be a lot of misremembering too. Seriously, @MeiTanteixX and @gg1998 need to both go read the seventeen year old case wiki page. Part of the reason I bailed out on replying to either of you was because neither of you were putting in the effort to make sure your facts match manga. 

 

 

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

There is so much misinformation going on in this whole thread right now. Some of it is probably because the chapter went through three languages before it was translated into English leading to misunderstandings, but there appears to be a lot of misremembering too. Seriously, @MeiTanteixX and @gg1998 need to both go read the seventeen year old case wiki page. Part of the reason I bailed out on replying to either of you was because neither of you were putting in the effort to make sure your facts match manga. 

 

 

The official English Translation from Batoto says "That Kohji's sink was running not Amanda's."

 

2 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

"CARASUMA" is the only name that fits with the message completely. The other ones lack letters. "Wakasa Rumi" is most likely just an alias made to look like the dying message, rather than it being what the message was saying.

Let me give you two examples, so that those two possibilities will also make as much sense as your theory.

1. I and some other forum posters often refer to you as MTX, now if we had to name you and we could only use letters M,T,X and we made a message MTX it will still direct to you. Though your full username won't be there.
2. Let's take the example of my username, now my username can also be referred to as g19, if the person didn't have enough time or didn't have enough letters to begin with. We really don't know that whether the dying message was complete or not. We also don't know whether the mirror ran out of characters to construct the whole message.

 

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

There is so much misinformation going on in this whole thread right now. Some of it is probably because the chapter went through three languages before it was translated into English leading to misunderstandings, but there appears to be a lot of misremembering too. Seriously, @MeiTanteixX and @gg1998 need to both go read the seventeen year old case wiki page. Part of the reason I bailed out on replying to either of you was because neither of you were putting in the effort to make sure your facts match manga. 

 

 

From the page of the "official" English Translation from batoto, if you have any further queries then this link will help too https://plus.google.com/+ShuichiAkai84/posts/aCgVXipisST

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

@gg1998, there appears to be a loop you are completely out of.

 

One, there are no official translations of these chapters until VIZ gets to it a decade from now or whenever that is.

 

Two, that translation on Batoto was done by fans, and I actually know who these people are. This chapter (948) was done after the DCTP manga CnD. At the time this was going on, replacement scanlators were still trying to work things out. The Clenched Scissors case was translated from Japanese, into Chinese, into Indonesian, and then into English. Yeah. 3 languages before English. Not surprisingly, there were some things that were translated wrongly. (Hell, I am more impressed by how much was correct. The translators are awesome to maintain that level of fidelity after three rounds) But anyway, these errors were discussed extensively on the DCTP spoiler boxes, and elsewhere at the time.  I understand that not everyone got the memo.

 

Three, in order to keep an accurate record, a page was created on the wiki, and with the help of those who have access to original Japanese scans, Japanese speakers, and others, the correct version of events was described. Most of it was little things, like Amanda being a "wealthy person", not an investor. However the state of Amanda and Kohji's room was incorrectly described. The true state of affairs is that only Kohji's room was messy and showed signs of a struggle; Amanda's was left like she just keeled over and died, and even the faucet was left running in it. So it was Amanda's room had the faucet on. Not Kohji's. (unless it wasn't mentioned by the mystery website maker.)

 

Four, I highly encourage anyone interested in the Kohji case to check this page out: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Case_from_17_years_ago

[gg1998 3]

35 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

@gg1998, there appears to be a loop you are completely out of.

 

One, there are no official translations of these chapters until VIZ gets to it a decade from now or whenever that is.

 

Two, that translation on Batoto was done by fans, and I actually know who these people are. This chapter (948) was done after the DCTP manga CnD. At the time this was going on, replacement scanlators were still trying to work things out. The Clenched Scissors case was translated from Japanese, into Chinese, into Indonesian, and then into English. Yeah. 3 languages before English. Not surprisingly, there were some things that were translated wrongly. (Hell, I am more impressed by how much was correct. The translators are awesome to maintain that level of fidelity after three rounds) But anyway, these errors were discussed extensively on the DCTP spoiler boxes, and elsewhere at the time.  I understand that not everyone got the memo.

 

Three, in order to keep an accurate record, a page was created on the wiki, and with the help of those who have access to original Japanese scans, Japanese speakers, and others, the correct version of events was described. Most of it was little things, like Amanda being a "wealthy person", not an investor. However the state of Amanda and Kohji's room was incorrectly described. The true state of affairs is that only Kohji's room was messy and showed signs of a struggle; Amanda's was left like she just keeled over and died, and even the faucet was left running in it. So it was Amanda's room had the faucet on. Not Kohji's. (unless it wasn't mentioned by the mystery website maker.)

 

Four, I highly encourage anyone interested in the Kohji case to check this page out: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Case_from_17_years_ago

"official" doesn't mean Official. 

Okiya Subaru mentions in the same chapter with emphasis on whether the taps were running at the crime scene or not? Kohji case was his point of interest and he drew parallels with it. So it's evident enough that Kohji's room was referred not Amanda's.

 

[MeiTanteixX 184]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

@gg1998, there appears to be a loop you are completely out of.

 

One, there are no official translations of these chapters until VIZ gets to it a decade from now or whenever that is.

 

Two, that translation on Batoto was done by fans, and I actually know who these people are. This chapter (948) was done after the DCTP manga CnD. At the time this was going on, replacement scanlators were still trying to work things out. The Clenched Scissors case was translated from Japanese, into Chinese, into Indonesian, and then into English. Yeah. 3 languages before English. Not surprisingly, there were some things that were translated wrongly. (Hell, I am more impressed by how much was correct. The translators are awesome to maintain that level of fidelity after three rounds) But anyway, these errors were discussed extensively on the DCTP spoiler boxes, and elsewhere at the time.  I understand that not everyone got the memo.

 

Three, in order to keep an accurate record, a page was created on the wiki, and with the help of those who have access to original Japanese scans, Japanese speakers, and others, the correct version of events was described. Most of it was little things, like Amanda being a "wealthy person", not an investor. However the state of Amanda and Kohji's room was incorrectly described. The true state of affairs is that only Kohji's room was messy and showed signs of a struggle; Amanda's was left like she just keeled over and died, and even the faucet was left running in it. So it was Amanda's room had the faucet on. Not Kohji's. (unless it wasn't mentioned by the mystery website maker.)

 

Four, I highly encourage anyone interested in the Kohji case to check this page out: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Case_from_17_years_ago

I'm relying on Spimer's and Gent's words. Spimer confirmed that Haibara never says "just as messy"(but rather is claiming that Amanda's room followed BO's M.O) and Conan says that Kohji's room has the tap open. Gent says that Wakarimashita corrected him and that the end-result is what is now written in Batoto. Looks like you are the one out of the loop.

 

From the narrative of the case exposition and the "clenched scissor" case development, it makes sense too that Kohji used the tap in his room and that Amanda's room was successfully cleaned(which makes Kohji's death stick out even more). Otherwise Conan would've pondered on why Kohji was in Amanda's room when he cut the mirror.

 

(Edit: sadly, I rely only on DCW wiki when I want to confirm some trivial info rather than the main plot info, since there's a bit of a bias in stuff like the BO research info).

[gg1998 3]

39 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I'm relying on Spimer's and Gent's words. Spimer confirmed that Haibara never says "just as messy"(but rather is claiming that Amanda's room followed BO's M.O) and Conan says that Kohji's room has the tap open. Gent says that Wakarimashita corrected him and that the end-result is what is now written in Batoto. Looks like you are the one out of the loop.

 

From the narrative of the case exposition and the "clenched scissor" case development, it makes sense too that Kohji used the tap in his room and that Amanda's room was successfully cleaned(which makes Kohji's death stick out even more). Otherwise Conan would've pondered on why Kohji was in Amanda's room when he cut the mirror.

 

(Edit: sadly, I rely only on DCW wiki when I want to confirm some trivial info rather than the main plot info, since there's a bit of a bias in stuff like the BO research info).

You just confirmed what I was going to attempt. I was going to drop a message to Gent and was readying to get screen-shots of our convo for out of the loop people. Looks like you saved my data usage by some MB's. Thanks MTX.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

2 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I'm relying on Spimer's and Gent's words. Spimer confirmed that Haibara never says "just as messy"(but rather is claiming that Amanda's room followed BO's M.O) and Conan says that Kohji's room has the tap open. Gent says that Wakarimashita corrected him and that the end-result is what is now written in Batoto. Looks like you are the one out of the loop.

 

From the narrative of the case exposition and the "clenched scissor" case development, it makes sense too that Kohji used the tap in his room and that Amanda's room was successfully cleaned(which makes Kohji's death stick out even more). Otherwise Conan would've pondered on why Kohji was in Amanda's room when he cut the mirror.

 

I don't know what to tell you except that I double checked the panel and it doesn't match what you say.

 

Haibara: 実際,殺された資産家の部屋はそうだつたみたいだし... (Jissai, korosareta shisan-ka no heya wa sōdatsuta mitaidashi.)

Conan: 確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しつ放しだつたつて書いてある. (Tashika ni senmenjo no jaguchi no mizu mo dashitsu hanashidatsuta tsute kaitearu.)

 

Haibara: In fact, the room of the wealthy person who was killed had a similar impression, right? ["similar impression" meaning like the BO's style mentioned in the preceding sentence from the previous panel]

Conan: Certainly, it says the water of the bathroom faucet was left running.

 

I'm not a masterful translator, but even I can see it doesn't obviously switch topics to "Kohji's room" or "Haneda Kohji" in that panel.

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Chekhov MacGuffin
missing "a"

[Jimmy-kud0-tv2 34]

Here is pages 2-8 of that chapter in Japanese for further reading

http://imgur.com/a/iFkXk 

[MeiTanteixX 184]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

I don't know what to tell you except that I double checked the panel and it doesn't match what you say.

 

Haibara: 実際,殺された資産家の部屋はそうだつたみたいだし... (Jissai, korosareta shisan-ka no heya wa sōdatsuta mitaidashi.)

Conan: 確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しつ放しだつたつて書いてある. (Tashika ni senmenjo no jaguchi no mizu mo dashitsu hanashidatsuta tsute kaitearu.)

 

Haibara: In fact, the room of the wealthy person who was killed had a similar impression, right? ["similar impression" meaning like the BO's style mentioned in the preceding sentence from the previous panel]

Exactly my point, meaning that it follows the M.O, unlike what is written in the Wiki.

 

Quote

 

Conan: Certainly, it says the water of the bathroom faucet was left running.

 

Quote

I'm not a masterful translator, but even I can see it doesn't obviously switch topics to "Kohji's room" or "Haneda Kohji" in that panel.

 

It IS switching, Because Haneda's room was Conan's initial focus. Haibara side-tracked him with the Amanda-room-comparison, and after confirming Haibara's claim by saying "seems like it"/"Certainly", he keeps going with what he was reading about Kohji's room.