Discussion Thread about Rum

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Just now, MeiTanteixX said:

Exactly my point, meaning that it follows the M.O, unlike what is written in the Wiki.

 

 

It IS switching, Because Haneda's room was Conan initial focus! Haibara side-tracked him with the Amanda-room-comparison, and after confirming Haibara's claim by saying "seems like it"/"Certainly", he keeps going with what he was reading about Kohji's room.

Uh, I really don't think it says that. You can ask someone who knows better, but it's pretty clear that Conan is responding to Haibara, who was describing the "wealthy person's" (aka Amanda's room). This is the preceding line I mentioned above above the Bo's modus.

 

Haibara: それより引っかかるのは荒らされたまま放置されたこの部屋・・・

Haibara: 組織の仕業ならこんな事有り得ない何事もなかったように立ち去るのが彼らのやり方なのに

Haibara: 実際,殺された資産家の部屋はそうだつたみたいだし

Conan: 確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しつ放しだつたつて書いてある.

 

Haibara: (Not confident enough to translate the first part.)

Haibara: The Organization's way of doing things is to leave [the scene] as if nothing had happened. (Low confidence translation here)

Haibara: In fact, the room of the wealthy person who was killed had a similar impression, right?

Conan: Certainly, it says the water of the bathroom faucet was left running.

 

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that "as if nothing had happened" is like "she just dropped dead in the middle of doing stuff, leaving things as they were." In this case the implication is that the sink was left running because Amanda dropped dead before she turned it off - hence as if nothing had happened (e.g. she was attacked).

 

Again though, if you want an expert Japanese translator's opinion, feel free to ask Serinox, Yunnie, or whoever. I'm curious too. Gent does Indonesian <--> English as best as I know, which means that if the error was in place somewhere in the Japanese--> Chinese or Chinese-->Indonesian step, he wouldn't be able to catch it unless he consulted with a previous language translator.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

@Chekhov MacGuffin as I said, I already confirmed it with Spimer, and Gent already had Wakarimashita's input and corrected it.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

55 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

@Chekhov MacGuffin as I said, I already confirmed it with Spimer, and Gent already had Wakarimashita's input and corrected it.

Great, except I don't have a copy of this conversation, and really don't like hearsay on stuff like this. And again, I definitely don't at all buy that line's translation in this panel.

 

 

I am good enough at Japanese to know this definitely is not literally correct. The translator had an incorrect source text, made a guess at the context, or had an additional source of information (Gosho note, later correction in chapter, etc.) that led to that edit. And regardless, it's no good to leave things as they are because if the translation deviates from the source material, there should be a stated reason that accounts for it that everyone should know. Accountability and standards of evidence and all.

 

That's why I am saying we need a second opinion. I believe I have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt there are potential issues with Gent's translation which need to be explained or addressed somehow.

[Serinox 127]

4 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I'm relying on Spimer's and Gent's words. Spimer confirmed that Haibara never says "just as messy"(but rather is claiming that Amanda's room followed BO's M.O) and Conan says that Kohji's room has the tap open.

First part about the messy thing is correct, but the second part is not true, the text never mentions Koji's room in that, like Chek said.

 

I discussed this issue on Discord again and we ended up with pretty much the same thing as Chek posted above, which is why I agree, Conan is talking about the water running in Amanda's room; water running in Koji's room is never mentioned in that chapter.

[gg1998 3]

1. Haibara was asking Conan if the room which belonged to the wealthy person had similar impression to BO's mode of operation or not?
2. Conan confirms her statement, then pauses, then says the taps were left running.
3. Now taps left running can't be an impression of a neat and clean room.
4. Okiya Subaru asks the Investigating Officer about whether the taps were running in the current case or not? The affirmative answer seemed to have taken him by surprise, he says that it's just like that case.
5. A corpse with a pair of clenched scissors and taps were running in the bathroom where the corpse was found. This two points at Kohji's case not Amanda's.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

16 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

1. Haibara was asking Conan if the room which belonged to the wealthy person had similar impression to BO's mode of operation or not?
2. Conan confirms her statement, then pauses, then says the taps were left running.
3. Now taps left running can't be an impression of a neat and clean room.
4. Okiya Subaru asks the Investigating Officer about whether the taps were running in the current case or not? The affirmative answer seemed to have taken him by surprise, he says that it's just like that case.
5. A corpse with a pair of clenched scissors and taps were running in the bathroom where the corpse was found. This two points at Kohji's case not Amanda's.

Freaking @Serinox made an appearance to weigh in. You have no standing to argue Japanese with Serinox unless you are secretly Yunnie-chan. (or Abs. I miss Abs. so much ;_; )

 

The panel said the faucet is running in Amanda's room. It is what it is, unless Gosho overrules it with new info later. Yes, I think it's weird the faucet is running in Amanda's room and not Kohji's. That's why I took special notice, double checked the Japanese source, and why I made that first post saying you and MeiXx were out of line with the facts. For now, we should take the opportunity to figure out how to accommodate this with our theories.

 

Quote

3. Now taps left running can't be an impression of a neat and clean room.

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that the translation is not "the room is perfectly neat and clean". The translation implies the situation in Amanda's room is more like "Amanda just dropped dead in the middle of doing stuff, leaving things as they were." It doesn't look like she was attacked, so the room is still orderly. The implication is that the sink was left running because Amanda dropped dead before she turned it off as if she died naturally. Contrast with Kohji's room where broken stuff littered the ground which was clearly unnatural.

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

First of all, regarding the order of the deaths, I do seem to remember something saying that Amanda was killed first, but the case is 17 years old and there were no witnesses, so that couldn't have been 100% certain.Even with today's technology, establishing TOD is not an exact science. If two people are kIfled close enough together, there is no way to tell from analysis of the bodies which one died first. Much as we are doing with this case, one can only speculate and form theories that fit the available facts to try guessing what happened.

 

Now, in response to MeiTanteixX:

12 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Interesting, but there's one problem you haven't explained...

Why was Kohji's room left as a mess, but not Amanda's, if Kohji was killed before her?

When Asaka/Rum attacked Kohji, he tried to fight. This left the room in disarray. When Asaka/Rum hurried away to go find and kill Amanda, Kohji could have used his last moments to leave the message, counting on the general destruction of the room to mask what he did with the mirror in case Asaka/Rum came back. (Think about it. If you have a fight in a room and a lot stuff gets broken, then you have to hurry away for something, are you going to remember exactly what all was destroyed?) As for why Amanda's room was not destroyed, it is possible that Asaka found her and killed her elsewhere then took her body back there. Alternatively, it is possible that Asaka took her by surprise and she didn't have a chance to struggle. Finally, it is possible that Amanda realized that she had no chance against the much younger and stronger Rum so she didn't even try to fight (even I don't believe this one, but I must acknowledge it as a possibility).

12 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

So you're saying that Amanda told Kohji, while knowing that Kohji has connections to a non-FBI-agent detective(Tsutomu)? Why would she rely on Kohji's non-FBI friend if she herself has ties to both FBI and CIA? Would that mean that Asaka killed Amanda first(after hearing her tell Kohji)?

Not necessarily. Asaka saw Kohji as a threat to his/her cover, so he/she went after Kohji and killed him. Perhaps Asaka initially wanted to get the names of Amanda's contacts to eliminate them as well. But it's possible that, during the fight with Kohji, Asaka learned something that made getting those other names irrelevant, or at least made it more important to eliminate Amanda immediately, so he/she rushed away to go deal with the older woman. As for why Amanda would tell Kohji her information, remember that (in this theory) Kohji has just warned her that Rum is coming to kill her. She might have related the information she had to him at that point so he could pass it on just in case something happened to her.

12 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

There's no info in the website that would be exclusive to the law enforcement agancies. Like Agasa said, there was "minute-details" in it, implying that it's info that only someone that was there could get.

I remember that it said that, but I could have sworn that it was also stated that the case files were put online as well. I could be mistaken about that. My memory is far fro infallible.

12 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

As for the dying message, "CARASUMA" is still a viable reading(meaning that Kohji picked up something from the perpetrator, like the family crest, that pointed to the "Karasuma" family).

 

Possible... less likely however if Tsutomu is Kuroda.

Yes, as would be "CURASAMA" (Kurasama or Kura-sama) or "CARUSAMA" (Karusama or Karu-sama), but until one of those names has entered the picture, the most likely interpretation is the given "ASACA RUM," because it has a specific relevance to characters that are already known (that is, stating that Asaka and Rum are one and the same).

12 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

 Hope to get your reaction now

There you have it. I hope that answered your questions.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

14 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Now, in response to MeiTanteixX:

When Asaka/Rum attacked Kohji, he tried to fight. This left the room in disarray. When Asaka/Rum hurried away to go find and kill Amanda, Kohji could have used his last moments to leave the message, counting on the general destruction of the room to mask what he did with the mirror in case Asaka/Rum came back. (Think about it. If you have a fight in a room and a lot stuff gets broken, then you have to hurry away for something, are you going to remember exactly what all was destroyed?) As for why Amanda's room was not destroyed, it is possible that Asaka found her and killed her elsewhere then took her body back there. Alternatively, it is possible that Asaka took her by surprise and she didn't have a chance to struggle. Finally, it is possible that Amanda realized that she had no chance against the much younger and stronger Rum so she didn't even try to fight (even I don't believe this one, but I must acknowledge it as a possibility).

Still, the M.O is to clean the room after you to make it look like nothing happened. The point in File 948 was that the disarray in Kohji's room implied that it either wasn't BO's doing or that somethimg happened that forced the killer to leave it like that. What made Rum in a hurry?

 

Quote

Not necessarily. Asaka saw Kohji as a threat to his/her cover, so he/she went after Kohji and killed him. Perhaps Asaka initially wanted to get the names of Amanda's contacts to eliminate them as well. But it's possible that, during the fight with Kohji, Asaka learned something that made getting those other names irrelevant, or at least made it more important to eliminate Amanda immediately, so he/she rushed away to go deal with the older woman. As for why Amanda would tell Kohji her information, remember that (in this theory) Kohji has just warned her that Rum is coming to kill her. She might have related the information she had to him at that point so he could pass it on just in case something happened to her.

I see.

 

Quote

There you have it. I hope that answered your questions.

It did, although I am not convinced that we have info that would suggest that Kohji was close enough to Amanda(or Tsutomu) that she(he) would entrust him with dangerous information.

 

15 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

For now, we should take the opportunity to figure out how to accommodate this with our theories.

Or wait until the anime clear things up(I wonder if they have the same debate before they confirm things with Gosho).

[gg1998 3]

15 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Freaking @Serinox made an appearance to weigh in. You have no standing to argue Japanese with Serinox unless you are secretly Yunnie-chan. (or Abs. I miss Abs. so much ;_; )

 

The panel said the faucet is running in Amanda's room. It is what it is, unless Gosho overrules it with new info later. Yes, I think it's weird the faucet is running in Amanda's room and not Kohji's. That's why I took special notice, double checked the Japanese source, and why I made that first post saying you and MeiXx were out of line with the facts. For now, we should take the opportunity to figure out how to accommodate this with our theories.

 

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that the translation is not "the room is perfectly neat and clean". The translation implies the situation in Amanda's room is more like "Amanda just dropped dead in the middle of doing stuff, leaving things as they were." It doesn't look like she was attacked, so the room is still orderly. The implication is that the sink was left running because Amanda dropped dead before she turned it off as if she died naturally. Contrast with Kohji's room where broken stuff littered the ground which was clearly unnatural.

• I'm not here to argue Japanese with Serinox, I'm here to point out the can of worms which accompany the current interpretation.
• Okiya Subaru draws parallels between the Kohji case(Not Amanda case) and the current case. When he asks that whether the taps were kept open in the current case or not it proves that in Kohji case the taps were open, and they were opened in Kohji's bathroom. If the taps were opened in Amanda's room such a question wouldn't even be asked in the first place.
• For the sake of argument let's assume that Amanda's room was the centre of the plot. Kohji was attacked while he was in Amanda's room and the opened faucet proves that he cut the glass over there. Now if Kohji was attacked and then he he cut the mirror. Now Kohji's body showed signs of struggle. So the room had to be in a disarray. So when the perpetrator was cleaning up the room Kohji was busy cutting the mirror. Or the cleanup got completed, the perpetrator had left, Kohji got up from his slumber, starts cutting the glass, feels like "Damn, this room is so clean. So I'll take the mirror with me, I won't even leave behind the scissors. I'll use my extra stamina to pull myself to my own room. Guess what, there won't even be a trace of me dragging my dying self out of this room ans also I won't be calling for help. Ha ha...I'm a Shogi champion bow down before me."  Or Rum comes after Kohji had done the aforementioned stuff, "Ah....what a bother. The dead body just got vanished out of the room. Guess what I'll just clean up the room and I don't care if there's a third party who had moved the corpse of that Shogi guy. It's not like that I had hated him, but I such a tsundere" (Rum strikes a Tatsumaki-pose)
• Ta-da we have three theories now.

 

10 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Or wait until the anime clear things up(I wonder if they have the same debate before they confirm things with Gosho).

Or just sit on a hunger strike infront of Ghoso's studio.

[Serinox 127]

8 hours ago, gg1998 said:

Okiya Subaru draws parallels between the Kohji case(Not Amanda case) and the current case. When he asks that whether the taps were kept open in the current case or not it proves that in Kohji case the taps were open, and they were opened in Kohji's bathroom. If the taps were opened in Amanda's room such a question wouldn't even be asked in the first place.

Akai bringing it up doesn't prove a thing. The cases may be similar, but you cannot use it as evidence, that everything back then happened exactly in the same as it did during the case in present day.

 

Also, just because Conan & Haibara are pretty certainly talking about Amanda's room/tap in that conversation, it doesn't mean that the tap in Koji's room wasn't also found running as well. While the tap running in his room is never mentioned/confirmed in the chapter, it wasn't disconfirmed either.

[Wakarimashita 137]

Just butting in to say that any knowledge I may have brought to the table was based on the french fan-translated version which is translated from japanese but is of course also prone to potential mistakes. This means I am in no way a reliable source to put forward in an argument when it comes to these issues, not nearly as reliable as Spimer, Serinox or Yunnie anyway.

[Valentin 3]

As a brief supplement to Conan and Haibara’s conversation about the rooms of Amanda Hughes and Kouji Haneda, I took a closer look at those sentences in my copy of Volume 89 and tried to provide a translation as faithful and clear as possible.

 

1: Haibara

それより引っかかるのは荒らされたまま放置されたこの部屋…

［１：それより］［２：引っかかるのは］［３：荒らされたまま］［４：放置された］［５：この部屋］…

[1: more than that] [2: what bothers (me)] [3: in a devastated state] [4: left behind] [5: this room] …

More than that, what bothers me is this room that was left behind in a devastated state …

 

2: Haibara

組織の仕業ならこんな事有り得ない…

［６：組織の仕業なら］［７：こんな事］［８：有り得ない］…

[6: as for the work of the organization] [7: a thing like this] [8: inconceivable] …

As for the work of the organization, a thing like this is inconceivable …

 

3: Haibara

何もなかったかのように立ち去るのが彼らのやり方なのに…

［９：何もなかったかのように］［１０：立ち去るのが］［１１：彼らのやり方］［１２：なのに］…

[9: as if nothing had been there] [10: to (stand up and) leave] [11: their way of doing] [12: despite]

Despite leaving as if nothing had been there is their way of doing …

 

4: Haibara

実際、殺された資産家の部屋はそうだったみたいだし…

［１３：実際］、［１４：殺された資産家の部屋は］［１５：そうだったみたいだし］…

[13: in fact], [14: the room of the killed wealthy person] [15: seems to have been like that]

In fact, the room of the killed wealthy person seems to have been like that …

 

5: Conan

確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

［１６：確かに］［１７：洗面所の蛇口の水］［１８：も］［１９：出しっ放しだった］［２０：って書いてある］…

[16: indeed] [17: the water of the tap of the bathroom] [18: also] [19: was left running] [20: is written]

It is indeed written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running …

 

Someone who talks about A and then about B will use an anaphoric term in the following sentence for referring to whatever was stated last instead of forcing the hearer to guess which one of the previously mentioned things is meant. In “I had a troublesome dog. Then I had a peaceful turtle. That was much better.”, that only refers to the peaceful turtle and not to the troublesome dog that was mentioned before the peaceful turtle. Correspondingly, I can’t think of any reasonable explanation why Haibara should first (Sentence 1) talk about A (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state”) and then (Sentences 2–3) contrast A (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state”) with B (“leaving as if nothing had been is their way of doing”) just to eventually (Sentence 4) utter C (“seems to have been like that”) for referring back not to what was stated immediately before that (“leaving as if nothing had been there is their way of doing” in Sentences 2–3), but to what was stated at the beginning (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state” in Sentence 1). She is confused by the fact that a room was left in a devastated state although the organization seems to be involved, makes the focus shift by mentioning their usual modus operandi and compares the other room with that (their usual modus operandi). So I agree with Chekhov MacGuffin and Serinox and dare say that every other reading of those words has nothing to do with natural language use.

 

As for Conan’s reply, I have a minor remark. While it doesn’t change the sense dramatically, I think that the absence of a comma after 確かに (indeed) entails that 確かに (indeed) emphasizes the rest of the sentence instead of directly affirming Sentence 4. To illustrate that, I put indeed after it is; here are the two versions for comparison:

 

Official Version

確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

It is indeed written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running …

 

Alternative Version

確かに、洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

Indeed, it is written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running …

 

I think that, in the latter sentence, Conan would first agree with Haibara explicitly and then mention the rest of his answer to support what she said, whereas, in the first sentence, he would solely emphasize something that supports what she said and might agree only implicitly. Again, the difference wouldn’t be too significant; I just think that the question if Conan agrees with Haibara explicitly or perhaps only implicitly isn’t completely irrelevant either, so I at least wanted to mention it.

 

I hope this helps to clear things up a bit.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

@ValentinI was convinced, then you used "anaphoric", and then I became even more convinced. 

 

I think there are a few facts about the Kohji case which are worth mentioning.

• Amanda was definitely in Kohji's room at some point. Her fingerprints on his sofa are the best evidence because moving a whole sofa is tough.

• There were tea cups (ティーカップ), dishes (皿) (left off translation), forks (フォーク) which Amanda's fingerprints were found on in Kohji's room. All of this was in katakana, implying foreign-type dining I suppose. To me that implies a tea service may have been delivered at some point (Haibara speculated this) which came to be in Kohji's room. That would then imply a hotel staff member making deliveries (unless the bodyguard Asaka took over that duty.) There is at least one coming and going we should try to account for.

• Conan says Amanda's fingerprints were found on the door knob (in katakana), using "nobu" which is different than a "handle". That is odd to me because most American hotels use handles, not knobs, at least on the main entry door. That might be relevant to any entry tricks.

• The faucet in Amanda's room being left running, which was debated extensively up-thread.

 

I think looking back at the Clenched Scissors and Clipped Glass Redux is extremely helpful as a guide for what Gosho thinks is possible and reasonable behavior for a criminal and victim in similar circumstances.

 

In the case redux, the culprit Senba lured the victim Hiyama to a location of his choosing with a false pretense, the toilet room where the weapon was located. Senba then attacked Hiyama in the toilet room, delivering an initial head wound to Hiyama. Despite being a one-way exit (toilets almost never have two doors) and bodyguards present at the home, 61 year old Hiyama managed to escape 50ya Senba, but chose to shut himself in the adjacent bathroom with no exit, yet was not able to alert the bodyguards by yelling, banging on windows, or anything else a panicking victim might reasonably try (and we don't know if Hiyama tried). Senba broke into the bathroom (you can see the damage to the latch in 948.11). In that time, Hiyama cut the dying message knowing he would be killed. Hiyama fearing the message would be discovered if the the cut glass fragments were left obviously, and so chose to throw the leftovers at the culprit and make a mess to hide his message in. Senba then took a shower and pretended to find the body. (The wet slipper clue and purposeful stepping on the glass doesn't make much sense to me as described, and I'm not sure if it's a translation issue or a case logic issue. The shower and a towel/Senba's clothes being wet after the blood washing seems more pressing than any sandals being wet.)

 

There are many conclusions about Gosho logic we can draw from this chain of events. Admittedly some is unusual in hindsight, but that's what we have to work with and we shouldn't expect the Kohji case to be logically cleaner than this one. Without further ado, Gosho thinks:

 

• The victim's first reaction upon being attacked is fight or flight. Victims don't always make the optimal choice though. Hiyama fled to a room with only one exit instead of a different location with more escapes or somewhere he could alert his bodyguards from.

• It's plausible for bodyguards not to be posted nearby relevant rooms and be out of earshot even if a fight, an escape, and a door breaking take place.

• Bodyguards may have very selective hearing. They can hear a heavy ball thrown on a roof, but not a door being kicked in. They even went over to inspect the source of the sound which was near the crime scene - the toilet and the adjacent bathroom, but apparently didn't hear anything. The timing of their investigation might have been off relative to the killing, but still. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

• In fact, I'm plain assuming that Kohji's case may also involve "bodyguards" who may completely suck at their jobs and not do logical things like we think they ought to.

• Cutting of glass can be done in the time it takes for an attacker to break down a door.

• 948.11 shows Hiyama's hands, assuming he was right handed, not bleeding from the glass cutting process. It is possible to cut the glass in a rush without splitting your fingers.

• A victim leaving a dying message in cut glass thinks it is logical to attempt to obscure the message if they think the attacker will have time to remove it. They may do this with more broken stuff.

• A victim might agree to meet with a culprit he/she wronged and doesn't trust.

• A culprit might be just fine taking his sweet time after the crime fixing things up if he thinks he is not going to be walked in on. And apparently bodyguards are predictable enough not to walk in on people.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

If you try to impose the events of the recent case onto the Kohji case you run into contradictions.

1. If you assume Kohji was attacked in his room, the crockery there knocked to the ground in the struggle, and he fled to Amanda's room, then you get the sink right but miss out on how he got back to his own room without getting caught by the attacker again who should be trying to break into Amanda's room to finish Kohji. No damage to Amanda's door was reported as far as I know. At best you could say Kohji escaped the attacker a second time and rushed back to his own room to hide the dying message among the broken pieces he knew would be there. You then have the weird problem of trying to figure out why Kohji was attacked if he was in his own room. If Amanda was killed in her room first, the killer would have known the sink wasn't running to begin with and found it weird Kohji turned it on. If Kohji was in his own room with Amanda who was the real target (as suggested), then Kohji's attacker should have found the tap running in Amanda's to be weird because who leaves their tap running when they leave their room?

2. If you assume Kohji was attacked in Amanda's room, then the message should have been made in Kohji's room and his sink left running. The teaset in Kohji's room could be explained by them first being together in Kohji's room for tea, then moving together to Amanda's room for something else, which is when they were attacked.

 

I don't expect the correct interpretation will be found by imposing the recent case solution onto Kohji's case. Gosho doesn't repeat crimes/solutions twice, and I feel like there may be a trap set for readers who try to do so. Enough of the circumstances are different --two victims rather than one, APTX 4869, and especially the Amanda tap issue-- so that we can't assume things may be the same twice. That said, I expect this case was introduced to set the stage for the Kohji case, thus preparing a base for the readers to build from (much like how Camel's fake death set up for Akai's fake death. Different solutions, many similar ideas). Potential ideas to play around in light of the Hiyama/Senba case are:

• Kohji may have broken the crockery in his own room to hide the dying message, rather than it being broken in a struggle. If so, Kohji thought the culprit would have time to notice and clean up.

• Kohji may have made the message in Amanda's room, but then returned to his own intentionally to make his final stand in order to have an opportunity to make a mess and then drop the mirror.

• There may have been a period of time at the end of the murders where the killer could clean up, manipulate the scene, or rectify some errors. Even move bodies and such.

• It's possible that Amanda or Kohji may not have been initially attacked in their own rooms.

• The killer could have moved the crockery set between rooms, although I doubt he would break it.

* APTX seems to do the job cleanly, so if the killer had time at the end of the crime, he could have moved a body back to their own room without leaving a trail of evidence. Kohji's body was bleeding slightly from fight damage, so may have presented some difficulty if it was moved.

• Kohji and Amanda may have been in the same room together (Kohji's having tea), and both may have escaped the initial attack alive with Kohji taking the damage from fending off the attacker and escaped to Amanda's room.

• If cutting the glass quickly in a rush does not leave damage to the hands, then Amanda may have cut Kohji's mirror and given it to Kohji who took the scissors to make sure the dying message was discovered. Not sure what this would achieve, but hey, worth considering.

• If the killer had time to visit Amanda's room after Kohji died, then the killer must have had a misunderstanding and thought the tap was left on by Amanda or Kohji for a reason. This would most likely be the case if he had not seen Amanda's room before Kohji cut glass in the sink. Still it would be weird for the tap to be left on.

• The sink could have been turned on after the killer left. (e.g. maybe Kohji and Amanda were both attacked and drugged with APTX in Amanda's room. Kohji survived, and after the killer assumed they were dead and fled made the message first in Amanda's room (because making the message is more important than hiding it when you can die at any moment), got back to his own room where there was crockery he can knock over to hide the message in, did so and hid the mirror among the pieces, then died.)

 

I know we don't have proof of this, but all this room switching would make much more sense if Kohji and Amanda's room were in an isolated area, or there were adjacent balconies, or those family doors between the rooms I mentioned earlier. It's really hard to imagine all of this going down and people going between rooms via a hallway which might have witnesses in it.

[gg1998 3]

11 hours ago, Serinox said:

Akai bringing it up doesn't prove a thing. The cases may be similar, but you cannot use it as evidence, that everything back then happened exactly in the same as it did during the case in present day.

 

Also, just because Conan & Haibara are pretty certainly talking about Amanda's room/tap in that conversation, it doesn't mean that the tap in Koji's room wasn't also found running as well. While the tap running in his room is never mentioned/confirmed in the chapter, it wasn't disconfirmed either.

I can use it as circumstantial evidence. If the tap in Kohji's bathroom was also left running then only this comparison makes sense. So it confirms that Kohji's bathroom's tap was also left running.

8 hours ago, Valentin said:

As a brief supplement to Conan and Haibara’s conversation about the rooms of Amanda Hughes and Kouji Haneda, I took a closer look at those sentences in my copy of Volume 89 and tried to provide a translation as faithful and clear as possible.

 

1: Haibara

それより引っかかるのは荒らされたまま放置されたこの部屋…

［１：それより］［２：引っかかるのは］［３：荒らされたまま］［４：放置された］［５：この部屋］…

[1: more than that] [2: what bothers (me)] [3: in a devastated state] [4: left behind] [5: this room] …

More than that, what bothers me is this room that was left behind in a devastated state …

 

2: Haibara

組織の仕業ならこんな事有り得ない…

［６：組織の仕業なら］［７：こんな事］［８：有り得ない］…

[6: as for the work of the organization] [7: a thing like this] [8: inconceivable] …

As for the work of the organization, a thing like this is inconceivable …

 

3: Haibara

何もなかったかのように立ち去るのが彼らのやり方なのに…

［９：何もなかったかのように］［１０：立ち去るのが］［１１：彼らのやり方］［１２：なのに］…

[9: as if nothing had been there] [10: to (stand up and) leave] [11: their way of doing] [12: despite]

Despite leaving as if nothing had been there is their way of doing …

 

4: Haibara

実際、殺された資産家の部屋はそうだったみたいだし…

［１３：実際］、［１４：殺された資産家の部屋は］［１５：そうだったみたいだし］…

[13: in fact], [14: the room of the killed wealthy person] [15: seems to have been like that]

In fact, the room of the killed wealthy person seems to have been like that …

 

5: Conan

確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

［１６：確かに］［１７：洗面所の蛇口の水］［１８：も］［１９：出しっ放しだった］［２０：って書いてある］…

[16: indeed] [17: the water of the tap of the bathroom] [18: also] [19: was left running] [20: is written]

It is indeed written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running 

 

Someone who talks about A and then about B will use an anaphoric term in the following sentence for referring to whatever was stated last instead of forcing the hearer to guess which one of the previously mentioned things is meant. In “I had a troublesome dog. Then I had a peaceful turtle. That was much better.”, that only refers to the peaceful turtle and not to the troublesome dog that was mentioned before the peaceful turtle. Correspondingly, I can’t think of any reasonable explanation why Haibara should first (Sentence 1) talk about A (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state”) and then (Sentences 2–3) contrast A (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state”) with B (“leaving as if nothing had been is their way of doing”) just to eventually (Sentence 4) utter C (“seems to have been like that”) for referring back not to what was stated immediately before that (“leaving as if nothing had been there is their way of doing” in Sentences 2–3), but to what was stated at the beginning (Kouji Haneda’s room “left behind in a devastated state” in Sentence 1). She is confused by the fact that a room was left in a devastated state although the organization seems to be involved, makes the focus shift by mentioning their usual modus operandi and compares the other room with that (their usual modus operandi). So I agree with Chekhov MacGuffin and Serinox and dare say that every other reading of those words has nothing to do with natural language use.

 

As for Conan’s reply, I have a minor remark. While it doesn’t change the sense dramatically, I think that the absence of a comma after 確かに (indeed) entails that 確かに (indeed) emphasizes the rest of the sentence instead of directly affirming Sentence 4. To illustrate that, I put indeed after it is; here are the two versions for comparison:

 

Official Version

確かに洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

It is indeed written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running …

 

Alternative Version

確かに、洗面所の蛇口の水も出しっ放しだったって書いてある…

Indeed, it is written that the water of the tap of the bathroom was also left running …

 

I think that, in the latter sentence, Conan would first agree with Haibara explicitly and then mention the rest of his answer to support what she said, whereas, in the first sentence, he would solely emphasize something that supports what she said and might agree only implicitly. Again, the difference wouldn’t be too significant; I just think that the question if Conan agrees with Haibara explicitly or perhaps only implicitly isn’t completely irrelevant either, so I at least wanted to mention it.

 

I hope this helps to clear things up a bit.

Though I, concur with your translation I do have some issues with your interpretation.[Google translate and Jisho say ; 16 is surely, 17 water of Washroom faucet, 18 is also, 19 reads keeping something turned on, 20 reads It is written.]

• So I think surely, will be a better substitute than Indeed.
• The example which you used was an ill constructed one. I'll tell you why, You're dealing with only two propositions and then referring one of them with a hint that one was favoured over the other. That's not the case here.
• Let's make a better example, B is reading a post that a Budgie owner had posted about how his deceased Budgie had been troublesome.
• Person A : "The op really had a troublesome Budgie. But in general Budgies aren't troublesome, they're peaceful pets. Wasn't Ms. Amanda's Budgie like that?"
• Person B : "Indeed/surely, it's written here that the door of the cage had claw marks."
• So to whom person B is referring, Ms. Amanda's Budgie or OP's budgie?
• Of course, the Op's budgie. Because here the comparison is between the nature of the Budgies owned by the OP and Ms. Amanda respectively. Person A wonders that why Op's budgie was so troublesome despite Budgies being peaceful pets in general. Person A cites the example of Ms. Amanda's Budgie to ascertain her assertion.
• Person B concurs and says with a pause(comma means pause, when we read we often don't pause at commas and that's the source of almost half of the misreadings) that it's written here that the cage had claw marks. Person B is referring to the context of OP's Budgie, the pause ensured it. If it was Amanda's Budgie the pause wouldn't even be needed.
• Don't use wrong examples to draw conclusions, because a counter example is enough to shatter the backbone of your dissertation.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

On 5/14/2017 at 10:11 PM, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Quote

There's no info in the website that would be exclusive to the law enforcement agencies. Like Agasa said, there was "minute-details" in it, implying that it's info that only someone that was there could get.

I remember that it said that, but I could have sworn that it was also stated that the case files were put online as well. I could be mistaken about that. My memory is far fro infallible.

Super late reply, but Asaka was reported as being seen with a small handmirror by the "Soul Detective". If (a big if, but we know of no other mirrors on the scene) that was Kohji's PTON clue mirror, then the pictures of the crime scene had to have been taken before Asaka did any mirror snatching. That is something to consider.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

12 hours ago, Valentin said:

I hope this helps to clear things up a bit.

Helps out immensely, thanks!

 

If that's the case, looks like a version 2 of my speculations needs to be made.

 

Gonna wait for the upcoming canon episode still, in case we get clarity. Still can't believe it.

[Jimmy-kud0-tv2 34]

7 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Super late reply, but Asaka was reported as being seen with a small handmirror by the "Soul Detective". If (a big if, but we know of no other mirrors on the scene) that was Kohji's PTON clue mirror, then the pictures of the crime scene had to have been taken before Asaka did any mirror snatching. That is something to consider.

 

Do we know for sure that the moment that Asaka was seen with the mirror was after the murders though? Couldn't Asaka or Amanda have had possession of it before hand, and Kouji just happened to have seen it and decided to use it?

 

I would think that Asaka would have fled rather quickly after realizing that two murders had taken place and fear the possibility of being blamed for them. Rather than standing around in the hallway and being caught looking into a broken hand mirror and being witnessed by someone. 

[MeiTanteixX 184]

1 hour ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

 

Do we know for sure that the moment that Asaka was seen with the mirror was after the murders though? Couldn't Asaka or Amanda have had possession of it before hand, and Kouji just happened to have seen it and decided to use it?

 

I would think that Asaka would have fled rather quickly after realizing that two murders had taken place and fear the possibility of being blamed for them. Rather than standing around in the hallway and being caught looking into a broken hand mirror and being witnessed by someone. 

I agree with this. I don't think that the mirror was taken afterwards. I think the point of the Hotta Gaito hint was to indicate that it originally belonged to Asaka, a female bodyguard, and that Haibara's "suggestion"(which really just looks like Gosho's hint), that kohji might've been given the hand-mirror by someone other than Amanda, indicates that Asaka lent it to him.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

2 hours ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

Do we know for sure that the moment that Asaka was seen with the mirror was after the murders though? Couldn't Asaka or Amanda have had possession of it before hand, and Kouji just happened to have seen it and decided to use it?

 

I would think that Asaka would have fled rather quickly after realizing that two murders had taken place and fear the possibility of being blamed for them. Rather than standing around in the hallway and being caught looking into a broken hand mirror and being witnessed by someone. 

34 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I agree with this. I don't think that the mirror was taken afterwards. I think the point of the Hotta Gaito hint was to indicate that it originally belonged to Asaka, a female bodyguard, and that Haibara's "suggestion"(which really just looks like Gosho's hint), that kohji might've been given the hand-mirror by someone other than Amanda, indicates that Asaka lent it to him.

Yeah, I'd be open to Gaito Hotta's witness seeing Asaka, with the mirror, before the murders.

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Yeah, I'd be open to Gaito Hotta's witness seeing Asaka, with the mirror, before the murders.

It's quite likely that Hotta might have seen a woman with a mirror, but was the woman really Asaka? I do have small proposition about this, though I consider it possible speculation, the only image of Asaka(or claimed image of her's) shows that her index finger is a bit longer than ring finger, so I think it's highly possible that Asaka was a man but Hotta saw someone else with a mirror. That someone(the woman) gave the mirror to Kohji.

 

 

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

It's quite likely that Hotta might have seen a woman with a mirror, but was the woman really Asaka? I do have small proposition about this, though I consider it possible speculation, the only image of Asaka(or claimed image of her's) shows that her index finger is a bit longer than ring finger, so I think it's highly possible that Asaka was a man but Hotta saw someone else with a mirror. That someone(the woman) gave the mirror to Kohji.

 

 

 

File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

Masumi: "Asaka, the bodyguard who disappeared, was seen holding a small hand mirror..." (the translators can weigh in if the original Japanese, here, doesn't translate into this)

 

Plus, who says that Hotta, himself, saw that? 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

9 hours ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

Do we know for sure that the moment that Asaka was seen with the mirror was after the murders though? Couldn't Asaka or Amanda have had possession of it before hand, and Kouji just happened to have seen it and decided to use it?

 

I would think that Asaka would have fled rather quickly after realizing that two murders had taken place and fear the possibility of being blamed for them. Rather than standing around in the hallway and being caught looking into a broken hand mirror and being witnessed by someone. 

I didn't even consider the possibility that Gaito could have been referring to a moment before the crime. I think it makes more sense that Asaka would have grabbed the mirror post-Kohji-mortem out of fear of being implicated or because he/she didn't want the real murderer to destroy the clue (figured the mirror was a dying message but not sure what it said?), but I cannot find fault with the possibility you presented. I'll keep it in mind when more details of the case come out.

 

I do think it was Kohji's mirror though for feelings-based reasons. Haibs said her mother had one of those "put on mascara" mirrors, which Akemi later took possession of. (948.5) Everyone and their ninja-clinging, neck-chopping, tea-drinking mamas knows Gosho is going to make Mary and Elena the sisters who are mothers. I know having hunches based off of throwaway lines is completely bad form, but both moms having the same mirror which was passed to someone they care about is in character for Gosho (reasonably assuming the Haneda family and the Akai family knew each other beforehand).

 

Quote

Plus, who says that Hotta, himself, saw that?

@DCUniverseAficionado, I noticed how vague Gosho was being with that case. There is no evidence or statements that Hotta Gaito was even at the Kohji crime scene. I feel like if he was then it would have been mentioned. Vodka or the culprit would have said something. I suspect Gaito may have heard this info on Asaka secondhand from someone, but who, if not the website?

[gg1998 3]

On 5/16/2017 at 8:09 PM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I didn't even consider the possibility that Gaito could have been referring to a moment before the crime. I think it makes more sense that Asaka would have grabbed the mirror post-Kohji-mortem out of fear of being implicated or because he/she didn't want the real murderer to destroy the clue (figured the mirror was a dying message but not sure what it said?), but I cannot find fault with the possibility you presented. I'll keep it in mind when more details of the case come out.

 

I do think it was Kohji's mirror though for feelings-based reasons. Haibs said her mother had one of those "put on mascara" mirrors, which Akemi later took possession of. (948.5) Everyone and their ninja-clinging, neck-chopping, tea-drinking mamas knows Gosho is going to make Mary and Elena the sisters who are mothers. I know having hunches based off of throwaway lines is completely bad form, but both moms having the same mirror which was passed to someone they care about is in character for Gosho (reasonably assuming the Haneda family and the Akai family knew each other beforehand).

 

@DCUniverseAficionado, I noticed how vague Gosho was being with that case. There is no evidence or statements that Hotta Gaito was even at the Kohji crime scene. I feel like if he was then it would have been mentioned. Vodka or the culprit would have said something. I suspect Gaito may have heard this info on Asaka secondhand from someone, but who, if not the website?

• So are you of the opinion that the mirror which was found in Kohji's room was really Mary's? But all we know is that Shukichi had an admiration for Kohji. Kohji possibly inspired him to the life of Shogi. But then would a rational woman gift her used hand mirror to the shogi hero of her son? I think it was a gift from another woman whom Hotta claims to have seen with the mirror.
• Or it could be a total bull, cooked up by Hotta. There was no woman with a hand mirror. Hotta invented it to make a grand show out of thin air. BTW when Hotta's performance was mentioned by Vodka Gin termed it as Rum's headache. So there might be a chance that Hotta was there at the Hotel but and saw someone with a hand mirror and now making his castle of lies based on that.

 

On 5/16/2017 at 4:21 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

Masumi: "Asaka, the bodyguard who disappeared, was seen holding a small hand mirror..." (the translators can weigh in if the original Japanese, here, doesn't translate into this)

 

Plus, who says that Hotta, himself, saw that? 

I don't get what you're saying. My point is that "The Woman holding a hand-mirror, who was also seen in the same Hotel is most probably not Asaka."

[MeiTanteixX 184]

7 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I do think it was Kohji's mirror though for feelings-based reasons. Haibs said her mother had one of those "put on mascara" mirrors, which Akemi later took possession of. (948.5) Everyone and their ninja-clinging, neck-chopping, tea-drinking mamas knows Gosho is going to make Mary and Elena the sisters who are mothers. I know having hunches based off of throwaway lines is completely bad form, but both moms having the same mirror which was passed to someone they care about is in character for Gosho (reasonably assuming the Haneda family and the Akai family knew each other beforehand).

I also thought this was hinting that it was Mary's before(when I supported the "Asaka=Mary" theory), but since that theory has been debunked to me now(not officially ofc), the only way I can see this work is if Mary passed it on to Asaka, who later lent it to Kohji. Since my theory is that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard(before Amanda-meeting in Kohji's room), there's the possibility that Asaka was close to Kohji and the Akai family.

 

To me, similarly to your hunches, the idea that the timing of when the photos was taken is important(meaning that Asaka could have taken the photos before fleeing with the hand-mirror) is off. I don't think those kinds of technicalities will have any significance, since Conan never mentioned or wondered about when and by who the photos(specifically) were taken. I believe that Gosho gave us all the important bits to think about in regards to the uploader(following Gosho's M.O with case exposition), and nothing specific about the photos was questioned(meaning they have less likelihood to play a role in the timing of the events).

 

I doubt that Asaka didn't have a pocket to put the mirror in when she was fleeing anyway. It makes the most sense that she was seen with the hand-mirror while using it.

[gg1998 3]

9 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I also thought this was hinting that it was Mary's before(when I supported the "Asaka=Mary" theory), but since that theory has been debunked to me now(not officially ofc), the only way I can see this work is if Mary passed it on to Asaka, who later lent it to Kohji. Since my theory is that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard(before Amanda-meeting in Kohji's room), there's the possibility that Asaka was close to Kohji and the Akai family.

 

To me, similarly to your hunches, the idea that the timing of when the photos was taken is important(meaning that Asaka could have taken the photos before fleeing with the hand-mirror) is off. I don't think those kinds of technicalities will have any significance, since Conan never mentioned or wondered about when and by who the photos(specifically) were taken. I believe that Gosho gave us all the important bits to think about in regards to the uploader(following Gosho's M.O with case exposition), and nothing specific about the photos was questioned(meaning they have less likelihood to play a role in the timing of the events).

 

I doubt that Asaka didn't have a pocket to put the mirror in when she was fleeing anyway. It makes the most sense that she was seen with the hand-mirror while using it.

• For a brief moment that also convinced me, but after the the 10 years ago, case came up(Akai family intro case) I also had debunked that theory.
• About the photos all I can say is that the photos weren't taken in a haste. Small details were also preserved and mentioned. Like state of Amanda's room, the tap, etc.So I think Asaka who was already suspected to be the chief accused wouldn't have had that much of a time in his/her hand.  So yes I agree with you on that point, that Gosho had already given us enough to figure out the id of the uploader, and the photos won't play a major role in the timing of the events.
• As per my observation regarding Asaka's fingers I'm pretty sure that Asaka had a higher chance of being a man.(Due to the length of the index finger, because Men tend to have longer index fingers.I saw that Gosho doesn't always hold good to 2D:4D ratios,so I'm abandoning that proposition.)
• Also if Hotta managed to obtain the information that there Asaka was seen with a mirror but the uploader stays silent about it. So two conclusions can be obtained from this a) Uploader knew that Hotta's information was damn wrong, but the uploader being Asaka is quite less likely proposition. b ) The Uploader is that woman who gave Haneda that mirror, who wasn't Asaka.