Discussion Thread about Rum

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

7 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

I also thought this was hinting that it was Mary's before(when I supported the "Asaka=Mary" theory), but since that theory has been debunked to me now(not officially ofc), the only way I can see this work is if Mary passed it on to Asaka, who later lent it to Kohji. Since my theory is that Asaka was originally Kohji's bodyguard(before Amanda-meeting in Kohji's room), there's the possibility that Asaka was close to Kohji and the Akai family.

I was thinking more along the lines of Mary Sera/Tsutomu Akai knew the Haneda family. Shuukichi and Kohji may have had some contact before the latter died because Shuukichi respected Kohji, and they were willing to adopt him later, and he took the family name Haneda. Shuukichi would have been 11 at the time Kohji was murdered. My suspicion (and it's only a suspicion) is that Mary loaned the mirror to Kohji at some time because, as Haibara said, "Shogi players care about their looks". Kohji carried it with him routinely during tournis in case a photo-op was coming up, so he had it on him when he was attacked. At least that's my version of events, disclaimers about no evidence noted

 

7 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

To me, similarly to your hunches, the idea that the timing of when the photos was taken is important(meaning that Asaka could have taken the photos before fleeing with the hand-mirror) is off. I don't think those kinds of technicalities will have any significance, since Conan never mentioned or wondered about when and by who the photos(specifically) were taken. I believe that Gosho gave us all the important bits to think about in regards to the uploader(following Gosho's M.O with case exposition), and nothing specific about the photos was questioned(meaning they have less likelihood to play a role in the timing of the events).

 

I doubt that Asaka didn't have a pocket to put the mirror in when she was fleeing anyway. It makes the most sense that she was seen with the hand-mirror while using it.

Conan talks about some important ideas and evidence, but Conan doesn't talk about all the evidence that is important.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the importance of timing and the status of the crime scene. You suggested earlier that Rumi obtained a piece of glass from the crime scene and is hiding it in her back pocket. If she (or someone else) had the ability to take it from the crime scene, that means the crime scene was not completely closed, which means tampering potential and the timing needs to be accounted for. The photographs on the Kohji death website are not stated to be crime scene photos, nor is the information said to be from a police report. Agasa explicitly comments about how in-depth and precise the details are, with the unspoken implication that the uploader may have witnessed the crime scene first hand. If the photographer is not secretly a police officer diverting photos and info, then this 3rd party photographer must have gotten there before the police. If so, how and when did he/she have access to the crime scene? The model case allowed the culprit free time at the end to tamper with the crime scene. While things will not be the same twice, I posted the time allowance for tampering in the list of takeaway possibilities to consider.

[gg1998 3]

So can we safely assume that Asaka isn't the uploader? As Asaka almost vanished in the thinn air after the incident, so she possibly wouldn't have time to cover every nook and corner of the crime scene before the police came in.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

15 hours ago, gg1998 said:

I don't get what you're saying. My point is that "The Woman holding a hand-mirror, who was also seen in the same Hotel is most probably not Asaka."

 

I'm saying there was only one account of someone holding a hand mirror, and in that account, the person who was carrying that mirror was Asaka.

 

File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

Masumi: "Asaka... was seen holding a small hand mirror..."

 

It was not someone else (this "woman" you refer to) holding the mirror. It was Asaka holding the mirror.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

4 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Conan talks about some important ideas and evidence, but Conan doesn't talk about all the evidence that is important.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the importance of timing and the status of the crime scene.

As I said, it's similar to your hunches. I haven't dismissed anything(just acknowledging the likelihood of things based on Gosho's pattern). In regards to the uploader and the info they are sharing, that's all we are seemingly getting(until the official reveal), so I'm not under the impression that we are in need of getting more clues about the uploader, beyond what we got in File 948.

 

Quote

You suggested earlier that Rumi obtained a piece of glass from the crime scene and is hiding it in her back pocket. If she (or someone else) had the ability to take it from the crime scene, that means the crime scene was not completely closed, which means tampering potential and the timing needs to be accounted for. The photographs on the Kohji death website are not stated to be crime scene photos, nor is the information said to be from a police report. Agasa explicitly comments about how in-depth and precise the details are, with the unspoken implication that the uploader may have witnessed the crime scene first hand. If the photographer is not secretly a police officer diverting photos and info, then this 3rd party photographer must have gotten there before the police. If so, how and when did he/she have access to the crime scene? The model case allowed the culprit free time at the end to tamper with the crime scene. While things will not be the same twice, I posted the time allowance for tampering in the list of takeaway possibilities to consider.

Yes, and what it was directed towards is something("U" shard) that was not found in the crime scene to begin with(at least according to the website). Since only its absence had a relevance in the crime scene(according to the picture that the uploader is desperately painting), I wouldn't equate it to an indicator of a potential tampering of the crime scene.

 

As for the question of how Rumi was able to get it, it belongs to the discussion of her identity. With all that being said, I'm following what has been given to us in the exposition files, and I've so far not gotten the indication that the timing of the photos plays a role.

[gg1998 3]

5 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

I'm saying there was only one account of someone holding a hand mirror, and in that account, the person who was carrying that mirror was Asaka.

 

File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

Masumi: "Asaka... was seen holding a small hand mirror..."

 

It was not someone else (this "woman" you refer to) holding the mirror. It was Asaka holding the mirror.

1. All I'm saying is that the woman who held the mirror is said to be Asaka. So two conjoined events here, a woman was holding the mirror and she's said to be Asaka. Now if the second part is unreal then the whole thing gets a new dimension. I've enough evidence to believe that Asaka wasn't that woman. That's why I'm speculating that Asaka wasn't the one who was seen with the mirror.

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 1:27 PM, gg1998 said:

the only image of Asaka(or claimed image of her's) shows that her index finger is a bit longer than ring finger, so I think it's highly possible that Asaka was a man...

 

 

This has been eating at me since it was posted because something seemed off. I finally did some research myself and realized what it was. The index finger being longer than the ring finger is the standard among women, not men. Men, on the other hand (no pun intended), generally have the ring finger longer than the index (even my own has the ring finger nearly a quarter inch longer by comparison to the index). So, by making the observation that Asaka's index finger is longer than her ring finger, you have given even more indication that she is indeed a woman. Just saying.

 

Also, something else just occurred to me for which I must appeal to anyone able to read Japanese. Something that might give a clue as to Asaka's identity. Do the Kanji used for the name Asaka have any alternate readings? I just realized it was written with Kanji rather than katakana or hiragana, so alternate readings or pronunciations are a possibility. If anyone can say, it might help.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

3 hours ago, gg1998 said:

1. All I'm saying is that the woman who held the mirror is said to be Asaka. So two conjoined events here, a woman was holding the mirror and she's said to be Asaka. Now if the second part is unreal then the whole thing gets a new dimension. I've enough evidence to believe that Asaka wasn't that woman. That's why I'm speculating that Asaka wasn't the one who was seen with the mirror.

 

Ah, I see. You think that the assertion made was that just some woman was holding the mirror, and then a separate assertion was made that this woman was Asaka. I'm afraid that's just not it.

 

Forgive me for bringing this quote up for a third time (must be annoyance-inducing, so I apologize), but it makes it pretty clear:

File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

Masumi: "Asaka... was seen holding a small hand mirror..."

 

There's no ambiguity here. Asaka was holding the hand mirror. There was no prior assertion to this that "a woman" had been seen with a hand mirror.

 

According to the culprit from that case (951–953), Hotta had discovered that Asaka had been seen holding a hand mirror. Also according to the culprit, Hotta, separately, concluded that Asaka was a woman:

File 953, Page 14, Panel 6:

Masumi: "Hotta also believed that Asaka was a woman..."

 

As you can see, the assertion that Asaka was the one who was holding the mirror came first, and then came the assertion that Asaka was a woman—the identity of the one holding the mirror was established first, not the gender (you seem to think it was vice versa).

 

So what's your evidence that a third party was the one holding that mirror, instead? I'd like to get to the bottom of this discussion we're having, on this specific subject, and see if there are any misunderstandings—either on my part or your part, or on both our parts.

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Ah, I see. You think that the assertion made was that just some woman was holding the mirror, and then a separate assertion was made that this woman was Asaka. I'm afraid that's just not it.

 

Forgive me for bringing this quote up for a third time (must be annoyance-inducing, so I apologize), but it makes it pretty clear:

File 953, Page 14, Panel 5:

Masumi: "Asaka... was seen holding a small hand mirror..."

 

There's no ambiguity here. Asaka was holding the hand mirror. There was no prior assertion to this that "a woman" had been seen with a hand mirror.

 

According to the culprit from that case (951–953), Hotta had discovered that Asaka had been seen holding a hand mirror. Also according to the culprit, Hotta, separately, concluded that Asaka was a woman:

File 953, Page 14, Panel 6:

Masumi: "Hotta also believed that Asaka was a woman..."

 

As you can see, the assertion that Asaka was the one who was holding the mirror came first, and then came the assertion that Asaka was a woman—the identity of the one holding the mirror was established first, not the gender (you seem to think it was vice versa).

 

So what's your evidence that a third party was the one holding that mirror, instead? I'd like to get to the bottom of this discussion we're having, on this specific subject, and see if there are any misunderstandings—either on my part or your part, or on both our parts.

• If without any ambiguity one says Asaka was holding a mirror, then it means that person was able to identify Asaka without a doubt.
• But the uploader of Kohji case uploads that not a single soul was able to provide any tangible lead to Asaka. If someone saw Asaka with the mirror and was sure of Asaka's identity, then that person would have testified already or the if Hotta was able to get the info then there was no chance that the persistent uploader won't be getting it. So I think nobody stated that they had seen Asaka with a hand mirror, but rather a woman with the hand mirror.
• If you consider this proposition, Hotta concludes that Asaka was a woman from the picture, then Hotta combines this with the fact that a woman was seen with a hand mirror and the there was a hand-mirror at the crime scene, then he with certainty can utter that Asaka was seen with a hand mirror. But He's inferring it from the data which he has gotten , he didn't get it first-hand.
• If Amanda's close relatives weren't sure about Asaka's identity then how could a random source was able to identify Asaka? There was no pictures of Asaka, Asaka was photophobic, clearly this is evidence enough that Asaka is very secretive and won't  be roaming around so that third party sources can identify him/her.
• These are the evidences.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

41 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

• If Amanda's close relatives weren't sure about Asaka's identity then how could a random source was able to identify Asaka? There was no pictures of Asaka, Asaka was photophobic, clearly this is evidence enough that Asaka is very secretive and won't  be roaming around so that third party sources can identify him/her.

That's a very bold claim. For all that we know, people were taking photo of Amanda, and Asaka stepped up to stop them from taking further photos. Just because this obscure photo is shown in the website doesn't mean that it wasn't handpicked for sole reason of being ambiguous enough that Asaka can't be identified.

[gg1998 3]

4 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

That's a very bold claim. For all that we know, people were taking photo of Amanda, and Asaka stepped up to stop them from taking further photos. Just because this obscure photo is shown in the website doesn't mean that it wasn't handpicked for sole reason of being ambiguous enough that Asaka can't be identified.

Then again, if some people had pictures of Asaka, then they would have uploaded or emailed the stuff to the website. The Law enforcement authorities would have had them and by now would have ordered a look-out notice for Asaka. Nothing of that sorts is happening, hence my bold claim.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

1 minute ago, gg1998 said:

Then again, if some people had pictures of Asaka, then they would have uploaded or emailed the stuff to the website. The Law enforcement authorities would have had them and by now would have ordered a look-out notice for Asaka. Nothing of that sorts is happening, hence my bold claim.

Still doesn't mean that she had to have been photophobic.

[gg1998 3]

11 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Still doesn't mean that she had to have been photophobic.

Not from the picture alone, man. To be honest Law enforcement agencies seriously lack any photographs of Asaka, only that photo was out in the public domain. That's why my assertion, though photophobic might not be the correct word, cautious about disclosing his/her identity. 

 

14 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

This has been eating at me since it was posted because something seemed off. I finally did some research myself and realized what it was. The index finger being longer than the ring finger is the standard among women, not men. Men, on the other hand (no pun intended), generally have the ring finger longer than the index (even my own has the ring finger nearly a quarter inch longer by comparison to the index). So, by making the observation that Asaka's index finger is longer than her ring finger, you have given even more indication that she is indeed a woman. Just saying.

 

Also, something else just occurred to me for which I must appeal to anyone able to read Japanese. Something that might give a clue as to Asaka's identity. Do the Kanji used for the name Asaka have any alternate readings? I just realized it was written with Kanji rather than katakana or hiragana, so alternate readings or pronunciations are a possibility. If anyone can say, it might help.

I screwed up, sorry for that.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

13 hours ago, gg1998 said:

• If someone saw Asaka with the mirror and was sure of Asaka's identity, then that person would have testified already or the if Hotta was able to get the info then there was no chance that the persistent uploader won't be getting it. So I think nobody stated that they had seen Asaka with a hand mirror, but rather a woman with the hand mirror.

 

I'm just taking what the culprit of that case (951–953) said to Masumi and Shinichi/Conan at face value—that Asaka was holding a hand mirror and that Hotta thought that Asaka was a woman—I'm not assuming how this witness reached the conclusion that the one they'd seen with the hand mirror was Asaka. And until we get a case that launches us back into the Koji Haneda/Amanda Hughes double murder—and brings up the matter of this witness, and in a way that either supports or refutes your theory, or even neither—I'm not going to be making any assumptions about how this witness inferred that the one holding the hand mirror was Asaka.

 

We still have no flashback to this case beyond Hyoue's extremely brief remembrance of Koji's body (File 987)—I'd like to see another one before getting any further into who was there, who was where, and when who was where.

 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

14 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Also, something else just occurred to me for which I must appeal to anyone able to read Japanese. Something that might give a clue as to Asaka's identity. Do the Kanji used for the name Asaka have any alternate readings? I just realized it was written with Kanji rather than katakana or hiragana, so alternate readings or pronunciations are a possibility. If anyone can say, it might help.

The kanji in the above picture are 淺香

淺 is shallow, superficial. on reading = sen ; kun reading = asa;

香 is incense, smell, perfume. on reading = kou / kyou ; kun reading = ka kao; name reading = ko koo hyan yoshi

 

Also I'd like to remind people the Volume Scan version of the Asaka exists.

 

Seems like 浅 and 淺 may have been mixed up in the wiki, but they mean almost the same thing and have the same readings.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Also I'd like to remind people the Volume Scan version of the Asaka exists.

 

Looks like the ring finger is longer than the index finger, here.

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

Thanks, Chek. I guess there was nothing to it though. I should have realized it wouldn't be that easy. I mean, this was written for Japanese originally; Aoyama-sensei wouldn't make it that simple to spot such a major clue since the Japanese audience would notice the alternate readings of the Kanji right away.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

2 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

Looks like the ring finger is longer than the index finger, here.

Honestly they look equal length to me because of the tilt and foreshortening. It's a pretty ambiguous pic (intentionally is my guess). Many people seem to think Asaka looks more busty rather than manly chested when they see the pic. Either way, Asaka is pretty "feminine" looking, be s/he guy or gal.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Honestly they look equal length to me because of the tilt and foreshortening.

 

I was actually wondering about that, but I don't know—again, I'm waiting for flashbacks to this.

 

Honestly, though, the ring finger/index finger thing is likely not going to be a determining factor in the determination of Asaka's identity... but even so, what about Rumi's ring finger and her index finger?

 

EDIT:

File 980 (Page 15, Panel 6) shows that Rumi's thumbs seem really short (unless we're dealing with a mistake on Gosho's part). The photo of Asaka cuts off at the thumb, so we don't know is Asaka's thumbs are like Rumi's.

 

[gg1998 3]

5 hours ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

I was actually wondering about that, but I don't know—again, I'm waiting for flashbacks to this.

 

Honestly, though, the ring finger/index finger thing is likely not going to be a determining factor in the determination of Asaka's identity... but even so, what about Rumi's ring finger and her index finger?

 

EDIT:

File 980 (Page 15, Panel 6) shows that Rumi's thumbs seem really short (unless we're dealing with a mistake on Gosho's part). The photo of Asaka cuts off at the thumb, so we don't know is Asaka's thumbs are like Rumi's.

 

It can be if Gosho remains rooted to this policy, but there was one Kid-case file(in DC) where Makoto did the same stuff to grab kid who disguised as Sonoko. So it can be a determining factor and to me also the index finger looks bit shorter than middle finger, though.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

12 hours ago, gg1998 said:

...and to me also the index finger looks bit shorter than middle finger, though.

 

I didn't know the middle finger was suddenly involved. You mean ring finger, right?

 

12 hours ago, gg1998 said:

...there was one Kid-case file(in DC) where Makoto did the same stuff to grab kid who disguised as Sonoko. So it can be a determining factor...

 

Sure, an element of one case can come up, again, but it's the only case out of the total 287 (so far) that has had that element play such a role. So the odds aren't anywhere near good, to say the least. Hence why I'm not betting on it being the decider.

[Valentin 3]

On 5/19/2017 at 0:28 AM, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Thanks, Chek. I guess there was nothing to it though. I should have realized it wouldn't be that easy. I mean, this was written for Japanese originally; Aoyama-sensei wouldn't make it that simple to spot such a major clue since the Japanese audience would notice the alternate readings of the Kanji right away.

 

I wouldn’t give up on that thought. I do think that 浅香 (asaka) includes a possible hint.

 

As @Chekhov MacGuffin wrote, 浅 is principally the opposite of deep:

 

１：川はここで浅くなっている。

1: The river has become shallow here.

-> The river is shallow here.

 

That’s the prototypical meaning.

 

There are, however, phrases that transfer this notion to other semantic levels:

 

２：彼は教師としての経験が浅い。

2: As for him, experience as a teacher is shallow.

-> He has little experience in teaching.

 

経験が浅い (experience is shallow) has become a common phrase to express that someone has little experience in something.

 

The temporal aspect can be made even more apparent:

 

３：我々は知り合ってからまだ日が浅い。

3: As for us, since knowing each other, the days have still been shallow.

-> We haven’t known each other for a long time.

-> We have known each other for a short time.

 

While the last translation isn’t exactly great English, I hope it clarifies that 日が浅い (days are shallow) signifies a brief time span.

 

That can also be done more directly:

 

４：春はまだ浅かった。

4: The spring was still shallow.

-> The spring was still young.

 

If not many days have passed after a certain point of time, 浅 can express that something is young.

 

Regarding 香, I see one thing standing out: While the character—like @Chekhov MacGuffin wrote as well—generally describes something that you can perceive through the nose, it’s likewise a common abbreviation for 香車 (kyousha) ‘incense chariot’. What makes it so interesting is that this is the full title of the shougi piece lance, which can only move forward.

 

Though I don’t want to claim that this is the correct interpretation, I do think that 浅香 can be read as a short form of 浅い香車 ‘shallow lance’ and thus as lance with little experience or simply young lance. The lance’s limited mobility could refer to a straightforward assassin that doesn’t hesitate to get the job done, but also to someone who is excessively straightforward due to their lack of experience or their early age (where the former may of course be conditioned by the latter) and makes (unnecessary) mistakes as a result.

 

Not least because there are several other ways to write the name Asaka, I’m convinced that Aoyama at least wants us to think about his choice of characters and their potential connection to shougi (whether or not they’re merely supposed to be a red herring), so I wanted in any case to point them out. To what extent this can be applied to Rum or others in the frame of a theory—I’ll leave that to you.

[gg1998 3]

29 minutes ago, Valentin said:

 

I wouldn’t give up on that thought. I do think that 浅香 (asaka) includes a possible hint.

 

As @Chekhov MacGuffin wrote, 浅 is principally the opposite of deep:

 

１：川はここで浅くなっている。

1: The river has become shallow here.

-> The river is shallow here.

 

That’s the prototypical meaning.

 

There are, however, phrases that transfer this notion to other semantic levels:

 

２：彼は教師としての経験が浅い。

2: As for him, experience as a teacher is shallow.

-> He has little experience in teaching.

 

経験が浅い (experience is shallow) has become a common phrase to express that someone has little experience in something.

 

The temporal aspect can be made even more apparent:

 

３：我々は知り合ってからまだ日が浅い。

3: As for us, since knowing each other, the days have still been shallow.

-> We haven’t known each other for a long time.

-> We have known each other for a short time.

 

While the last translation isn’t exactly great English, I hope it clarifies that 日が浅い (days are shallow) signifies a brief time span.

 

That can also be done more directly:

 

４：春はまだ浅かった。

4: The spring was still shallow.

-> The spring was still young.

 

If not many days have passed after a certain point of time, 浅 can express that something is young.

 

Regarding 香, I see one thing standing out: While the character—like @Chekhov MacGuffin wrote as well—generally describes something that you can perceive through the nose, it’s likewise a common abbreviation for 香車 (kyousha) ‘incense chariot’. What makes it so interesting is that this is the full title of the shougi piece lance, which can only move forward.

 

Though I don’t want to claim that this is the correct interpretation, I do think that 浅香 can be read as a short form of 浅い香車 ‘shallow lance’ and thus as lance with little experience or simply young lance. The lance’s limited mobility could refer to a straightforward assassin that doesn’t hesitate to get the job done, but also to someone who is excessively straightforward due to their lack of experience or their early age (where the former may of course be conditioned by the latter) and makes (unnecessary) mistakes as a result.

 

Not least because there are several other ways to write the name Asaka, I’m convinced that Aoyama at least wants us to think about his choice of characters and their potential connection to shougi (whether or not they’re merely supposed to be a red herring), so I wanted in any case to point them out. To what extent this can be applied to Rum or others in the frame of a theory—I’ll leave that to you.

A little thing for your further research, I used Google translate and Wakasa means Youth. So in other words Wakasa and Asaka are interchangeable. Lance can also signify a straight forward person lacking tact and deceit. 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

@Valentin I think the most important takeaway message here is that Asaka has shogi-related characters, and thus could be used in a clue/dying message.

 

黒田 兵衛 --> 角行 Hyoue has some of the radicals from bishop for instance.

世良 --> 銀將 family name Sera has a radical found in the silver general piece.

I wonder if there is more dying message, and which piece is in Rumi's pocket.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Chekhov MacGuffin

[mdeco28 0]

hello  im new here   i wanted to pointed out something if im not mistake on chikara ch 899 p9  silver 5f match   he moves  the piece ginsho 銀將  silver general i hope  this would useful sorry  my english is very bad  and on wakasa rumi last case  letter v  also basket ball team is 5 players  i hope  this all tun out to be red herring

 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

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