Discussion Thread about Rum

[gg1998 3]

36 minutes ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Too shady, if you ask me. While I do think he's BO—and a high ranking member, in fact—I don't think he's Rum.

A good reasoned thought, but I can pose a counter question to you.

• Why is he so adamant to accompany Kogoro to Kogoro's next murder case? If he was here to investigate Kogoro, then he would be doing things on the line of Bourbon, like showing interests in his method, getting access to his office, investigating his knowledge about the Kohji case etc. But here this guy wants to go with him on a murder case(mind it not even Kogoro's next case).
• Firstly I was also discarding him as someone with BO but not Rum, but now as I look the thing more closely, I'm getting a sense that he is becoming the prime Rum suspect.
• If we go by the chapter before his introduction, Gin tells Vodka that he's anxious about Kogoro's involvement in the case and Hotta Gaito might be an interesting lead for Rum, but it's not for Gin.
• So, Hotta is dead and we can think that Rum's interest is gone and only thing remaining is Gin.
• Now BO has Bourbon, the finest BO mind working just beneath Kogoro's office, so why they need another agent to look into Kogoro. It's not like that BO wants to kill Kogoro, they will investigate first and then kill him if the necessity arises.
• Why waste another resource on the same stuff? (BO has shown faith in Bourbon during ASACA song case.)
• But Rum should be very wary after this string of online exposes about the Haneda Kohji case and Kogoro being invited by Hotta Gaito( Who knew something about the case) can put Kogoro into Rum's radar.
• So there's a possibility for Rum to come out and test the waters, because the only two thing can become a hurdle in his path.
• Firstly the persevering uploader of Kohji case.
• Secondly, if Kogoro takes an interest in the case or the uploader sends the Case to Kogoro.
• Rum is yet to dig up the uploader, so Kogoro seems to be a good starting point for Rum's investigation.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

30 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

A good reasoned thought, but I can pose a counter question to you.

• Why is he so adamant to accompany Kogoro to Kogoro's next murder case? If he was here to investigate Kogoro, then he would be doing things on the line of Bourbon, like showing interests in his method, getting access to his office, investigating his knowledge about the Kohji case etc. But here this guy wants to go with him on a murder case(mind it not even Kogoro's next case).
• Firstly I was also discarding him as someone with BO but not Rum, but now as I look the thing more closely, I'm getting a sense that he is becoming the prime Rum suspect.
• If we go by the chapter before his introduction, Gin tells Vodka that he's anxious about Kogoro's involvement in the case and Hotta Gaito might be an interesting lead for Rum, but it's not for Gin.
• So, Hotta is dead and we can think that Rum's interest is gone and only thing remaining is Gin.
• Now BO has Bourbon, the finest BO mind working just beneath Kogoro's office, so why they need another agent to look into Kogoro. It's not like that BO wants to kill Kogoro, they will investigate first and then kill him if the necessity arises.
• Why waste another resource on the same stuff? (BO has shown faith in Bourbon during ASACA song case.)
• But Rum should be very wary after this string of online exposes about the Haneda Kohji case and Kogoro being invited by Hotta Gaito( Who knew something about the case) can put Kogoro into Rum's radar.
• So there's a possibility for Rum to come out and test the waters, because the only two thing can become a hurdle in his path.
• Firstly the persevering uploader of Kohji case.
• Secondly, if Kogoro takes an interest in the case or the uploader sends the Case to Kogoro.
• Rum is yet to dig up the uploader, so Kogoro seems to be a good starting point for Rum's investigation.

 

This is more like 2 questions and 12 related points than a single "counter question," but okay.

 

Why does it have to be Rum who's using Kogoro to try and find the uploader? A rival of Rum's within the BO would be just as interested in a big mistake from his past. A chance to show up Rum and gain the Boss' favor and approval, and all at Rum's expense? A rival of Rum's definitely wouldn't pass such an opportunity up.

 

For all we know—whether Kanenori is Rum or another high-ranking BO member—the Boss didn't authorize Kanenori to go investigate Kogoro. This could be a completely independent effort, on his part—either to clean up his 17-year-old mistake... or to do what his rival, Rum, couldn't, to show him up, and show the Boss who is really worthy.

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

This is more like 2 questions and 12 related points than a single "counter question," but okay.

 

Why does it have to be Rum who's using Kogoro to try and find the uploader? A rival of Rum's within the BO would be just as interested in a big mistake from his past. A chance to show up Rum and gain the Boss' favor and approval, and all at Rum's expense? A rival of Rum's definitely wouldn't pass such an opportunity up.

 

For all we know—whether Kanenori is Rum or another high-ranking BO member—the Boss didn't authorize Kanenori to go investigate Kogoro. This could be a completely independent effort, on his part—either to clean up his 17-year-old mistake... or to do what his rival, Rum, couldn't, to show him up, and show the Boss who is really worthy.

You misquoted me, I never implied that Rum is trying to use Kogoro to find the uploader, all I said that's it;s rational for Rum to investigate the only tangible link (Kogoro) wrt to his past screw-up.

I just tossed a possibility that Rum might think that the uploader had already contacted Kogoro about the Haneda case ,as it's a well known fact that Kogoro was involved in the Hotta Gaito case.

Another member of BO trying digup Rum's shit after flouting Boss' orders, I don't think it's likely,though I won't discard it.

I just posed the counter question with my analysis, so that you can defend your position and at the same time you can evaluate my analysis for scrutiny.

 

[MeiTanteixX 184]

If Wakita was behind Mary's shrinking, then it would imply that he had access to APTX. That would at the very least make him a code-named member(in ranking), since only Gin and Pisco are so far confirmed to have been authorized to use it(two code-named agents).

 

Overall however, I'm leaning more towards Wakita being a teacher-figure within the BO(hence the "ashita no joe" reference). I can see him being Rum's mentor, hence his possibly-foreshadowed critisizing of "pirate spirit"(Rum). Since Gin wanted to do something about Kogoro(the detective he has suspected for so long), and since Wakita's involvement could be the result of his actions, I wouldn't put past Wakita being a mentor figure to Gin as well(hence why he relied on an older higher-up, despite his portrayed trust issues with people in general).

[gg1998 3]

3 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

If Wakita was behind Mary's shrinking, then it would imply that he had access to APTX. That would at the very least make him a code-named member(in ranking), since only Gin and Pisco are so far confirmed to have been authorized to use it(two code-named agents).

 

Overall however, I'm leaning more towards Wakita being a teacher-figure within the BO(hence the "ashita no joe" reference). I can see him being Rum's mentor, hence his possibly-foreshadowed critisizing of "pirate spirit"(Rum). Since Gin wanted to do something about Kogoro(the detective he has suspected for so long), and since Wakita's involvement could be the result of his actions, I wouldn't put past Wakita being a mentor figure to Gin as well(hence why he relied on an older higher-up, despite his portrayed trust issues with people in general).

For the first part it's a big leap to take. I won't think that Mary's shrinking was Wakita's doing, though it's popular theory based on association of two following cases. I would rather keep the shrinking of Mary out of Rum's identity discussion. To be honest Mary isn't a sitting duck, I think there's more to it, than random assasination attempts.

When I re-evaluated Wakita's conversation with Kogoro, one thing stood out, unlike Bourbon Wakita wants to accompany Kogoro to his next murder case, not Kogoro's next case, not being an apprentice in his office. This strikes to me as he is only interested in accompanying him to murder scene. If he really wanted to investigate Kogoro it's better to get into his office. Also we're assuming that Gin is making a move and Rum is just chilling out.

I think Rum should be more anxious and wary and due to Kogoro's involvement in the soul detective case, Kogoro will come under Rum's radar as Kogoro has the fame of being a genius detective.

The criticism of "Pirate-Spirit" has a double meaning, on the cover it seems that it's a weak player so betting on it is irrational. But Pirate spirit despite all odds did win the race and Kogoro despite all odds bet on it and came out victorious.(As far as Wakita was concerned). So maybe we can also look it as a compliment to Kogoro who can identify diamonds lying in the ruff.

There was also second in command of Boss appearing in Kamen-Yaiba reference, but let's forget it I don't like those stuff. They are often distractions than not.

Also let's not forget about the news which Wakita was reading, it's a news report of 7th/8th page. Now Wakasa Rumi's heroics is a front page news due to the involvement of the golfer, it can't be a kid's case report as that's also a front page news. So what was it? Hotta Gaito case maybe?

 

 

[Serinox 127]

On 3.5.2017 at 8:28 AM, gg1998 said:

But Rum should be very wary after this string of online exposes about the Haneda Kohji case and Kogoro being invited by Hotta Gaito( Who knew something about the case) can put Kogoro into Rum's radar.

Kogoro wasn't invited by Gaito. And the BO only know that Kogoro was involved in the case, not necessarily that he was supposed to work on the Koji case for the TV show with Gaito.

[gg1998 3]

18 hours ago, Serinox said:

Kogoro wasn't invited by Gaito. And the BO only know that Kogoro was involved in the case, not necessarily that he was supposed to work on the Koji case for the TV show with Gaito.

There's a definite invitation coming to Kogoro from Hotta's manager. Hotta's manager doesn't do anything without his concurrence. BO won't just chill out with the fact that Kogoro was involved, they will investigate it and eventually will find out that Kogoro was invited.

Rum will closely follow Hotta's case and as Kogoro is the only tangible link after Hotta's murder, Kogoro would make a good starting point for Rum's investigation. Rum surely won't want sleeping Kogoro coming after him, so he would first try to assess the situation and if need arises then bump off Kogoro.

 

Mod edit: Please don't link to English manga.

[Serinox 127]

12 hours ago, gg1998 said:

There's a definite invitation coming to Kogoro from Hotta's manager

Are you talking about Kokuri? He is a producer at the TV station where the show was going to air, he is not Hotta's manager.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

2 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Are you talking about Kokuri? He is a producer at the TV station where the show was going to air, he is not Hotta's manager.

You mean Fukuri?

[Serinox 127]

3 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

You mean Fukuri?

That's a translation error (these files are still from the Japanese to Chinese to Indonesian to English scanlation times), his name is Kokuri in the Japanese version and thus here in the wiki.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

33 minutes ago, Serinox said:

That's a translation error (these files are still from the Japanese to Chinese to Indonesian to English scanlation times), his name is Kokuri in the Japanese version and thus here in the wiki.

I see

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, Serinox said:

Are you talking about Kokuri? He is a producer at the TV station where the show was going to air, he is not Hotta's manager.

Even then, he couldn't have went on with plan of inviting Kogoro if Hotta wasn't interested in the first place. So I think as somehow Kogoro was linked to the case he has to be on Rum's radar.That's point which prompts me to consider Wakita as Rum.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

Hey everyone, it's been a long time ! Anyways, I think maybe we have thought about Rum's attributes from a closed angle. Most if not all have compared Rum's descriptions to the Apartment store case, however what if it is not scene related but time related. For example, it is not that some agents saw him as strong or effeminate. But rather it is that at different times he was seen differently, simple as that. Perhaps in youth he had long hair which made everyone think he is effeminate, but later he cuts it short or keeps it (like Shuu in a way XD). He is now considered old, because for the new B.O agents he will look old and a more senior agent. And maybe strong due to either natural ability or again time related, or maybe just like how in the 20 movie, he mostly recruits female agents to be under him directly perhaps as they are pron to his manipulation than men. And these female agents would describe him as strong in relation to them. What do you think?

[gg1998 3]

33 minutes ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Hey everyone, it's been a long time ! Anyways, I think maybe we have thought about Rum's attributes from a closed angle. Most if not all have compared Rum's descriptions to the Apartment store case, however what if it is not scene related but time related. For example, it is not that some agents saw him as strong or effeminate. But rather it is that at different times he was seen differently, simple as that. Perhaps in youth he had long hair which made everyone think he is effeminate, but later he cuts it short or keeps it (like Shuu in a way XD). He is now considered old, because for the new B.O agents he will look old and a more senior agent. And maybe strong due to either natural ability or again time related, or maybe just like how in the 20 movie, he mostly recruits female agents to be under him directly perhaps as they are pron to his manipulation than men. And these female agents would describe him as strong in relation to them. What do you think?

It's a very reasonable assumption. Maybe Rum aged just like a normal human being and the three descriptions come from three different points of time.

Rum is also not a very visible BO member, as he's the second in command, his appearance would be very limited to lower ranking BO members and as he's known to be the second in command. So lack of visibility, a story about having a prosthetic eye and gradual ageing did the rest. A good theory, the only possible fragility is that we have no evidence to support that the three descriptions came from three different points of time. If somehow that's ensured then we can put a stamp on your theory without any doubt.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

3 minutes ago, gg1998 said:

It's a very reasonable assumption. Maybe Rum aged just like a normal human being and the three descriptions come from three different points of time.

Rum is also not a very visible BO member, as he's the second in command, his appearance would be very limited to lower ranking BO members and as he's known to be the second in command. So lack of visibility, a story about having a prosthetic eye and gradual ageing did the rest. A good theory, the only possible fragility is that we have no evidence to support that the three descriptions came from three different points of time. If somehow that's ensured then we can put a stamp on your theory without any doubt.

Unfortunately as of yet there is no evidence to support it, however if you tie it with the fact that if indeed Rum has appeared. Then you can assume he have no long hair as of the current timeline, since we have not been introduced to an old man (considering this to be the de facto current attribute of Rum since he is that old). Then the theory holds, as the most characters who are male old and with long hair has either died or exposed (except for Mr. Masakage the magician, though I doubt Gosho has planned that far ahead). You also can say that the 'accident' that gave Rum his prosthetic eye has also changed his appearance, hence the contradicting descriptions. 

[gg1998 3]

13 minutes ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Unfortunately as of yet there is no evidence to support it, however if you tie it with the fact that if indeed Rum has appeared. Then you can assume he have no long hair as of the current timeline, since we have not been introduced to an old man (considering this to be the de facto current attribute of Rum since he is that old). Then the theory holds, as the most characters who are male old and with long hair has either died or exposed (except for Mr. Masakage the magician, though I doubt Gosho has planned that far ahead). You also can say that the 'accident' that gave Rum his prosthetic eye has also changed his appearance, hence the contradicting descriptions. 

Correctly said, if we can speculate a bit on that then we can assume that Rum is around 50-52, now. When he was a young man in his early 30's he kept flowing black hair, then the Kouji murder case forced him to do away with his hair(maybe someone had spotted him with a long/flowing hair) and then comes his second avatar, and gradually becoming an old man (50 is somewhat old in Japanese standards)

Maybe in that double murder screw up he somehow lost his eye and his face was seen. So he did away with his hairs. So the case is now like this, bat shit crazy people are roaming around the Beika area( A deadly yet mentally unstable school teacher, An equally crazy and dangerous Police chief, A sushi chef who tries to show off his eye injury despite claiming that it's still healing and a Bishonen Butler doing some bidding for a spoilt brat) but is Rum one of them?

During the Koji case there was a dying message which named his killer, now Koji won't know Rum's code name as he wasn't connected to BO. So the dying message named Rum and the body-guard of Amanda(who was also killed) is still missing and is the prime suspect of the double murder.

Now nobody seemed to have read the dying message properly and Asaka is the prime suspect. So Rum gives almost flying damns to those revelations about the Asaca song and Hotta's claims.

BO seemed to make a move because they found the similarity of the dying message and the spelling of Asaca song, so they wanted to know how the singer got the title's spelling/how much he really does know about the situation.

But there were three other Belligerents in that same case, a)Asaka, b)The Up-loader(considering Asaka isn't the up-loader) of Koji case c)Akai-san's dad.

So either Wakita is Rum( as Kogoro got involved in Soul detective case, Rum would like to know whether Kogoro is really interested in that case and how much he knows about Rum.) or Rum is yet to make a move as he already knows that Hotta was killed before he could meet Kogoro.

Mary and Sera are not the uploaders, because when Sera explained the stuff, Hotta was planning to Mary, Mary termed it as boring. So Mary already have enough info on that case but the up-loader seems to have no idea about Asaka's gender and Asaka's possession of a hand-mirror.

If we assume that Asaka made out of there alive then he/she would be on the run hiding from BO, probably he'she won't try so perseverely to upload the Haneda case files, when they are being taken down frequently. So it would be a bit unlikely for Asaka to do that.

We know Akai-senior was investigating the case, that's why Mary knows enough to term Hotta's knowledge boring. He probably went too close to the organization and had to go underground for self preservation.

Now if two Koji case related stuff comes up, these three people would come out with all guns blazing because they want to get Rum's head at all cost.

 

 

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

2 hours ago, gg1998 said:

Correctly said, if we can speculate a bit on that then we can assume that Rum is around 50-52, now. When he was a young man in his early 30's he kept flowing black hair, then the Kouji murder case forced him to do away with his hair(maybe someone had spotted him with a long/flowing hair) and then comes his second avatar, and gradually becoming an old man (50 is somewhat old in Japanese standards)

Maybe in that double murder screw up he somehow lost his eye and his face was seen. So he did away with his hairs. So the case is now like this, bat shit crazy people are roaming around the Beika area( A deadly yet mentally unstable school teacher, An equally crazy and dangerous Police chief, A sushi chef who tries to show off his eye injury despite claiming that it's still healing and a Bishonen Butler doing some bidding for a spoilt brat) but is Rum one of them?

During the Koji case there was a dying message which named his killer, now Koji won't know Rum's code name as he wasn't connected to BO. So the dying message named Rum and the body-guard of Amanda(who was also killed) is still missing and is the prime suspect of the double murder.

Now nobody seemed to have read the dying message properly and Asaka is the prime suspect. So Rum gives almost flying damns to those revelations about the Asaca song and Hotta's claims.

BO seemed to make a move because they found the similarity of the dying message and the spelling of Asaca song, so they wanted to know how the singer got the title's spelling/how much he really does know about the situation.

But there were three other Belligerents in that same case, a)Asaka, b)The Up-loader(considering Asaka isn't the up-loader) of Koji case c)Akai-san's dad.

So either Wakita is Rum( as Kogoro got involved in Soul detective case, Rum would like to know whether Kogoro is really interested in that case and how much he knows about Rum.) or Rum is yet to make a move as he already knows that Hotta was killed before he could meet Kogoro.

Mary and Sera are not the uploaders, because when Sera explained the stuff, Hotta was planning to Mary, Mary termed it as boring. So Mary already have enough info on that case but the up-loader seems to have no idea about Asaka's gender and Asaka's possession of a hand-mirror.

If we assume that Asaka made out of there alive then he/she would be on the run hiding from BO, probably he'she won't try so perseverely to upload the Haneda case files, when they are being taken down frequently. So it would be a bit unlikely for Asaka to do that.

We know Akai-senior was investigating the case, that's why Mary knows enough to term Hotta's knowledge boring. He probably went too close to the organization and had to go underground for self preservation.

Now if two Koji case related stuff comes up, these three people would come out with all guns blazing because they want to get Rum's head at all cost.

 

 

I've been dwelling on the Kohji's case, and I don't know for sure as it is still too vague, but here's what I've concluded thus far. It is possible that the murders of Amanda and Koji are different, in the sense that it's a different criminal for each crime. If you think about it, the most logical answer for way one room is neat while the other is messy despite the fact that one victim is an old female and the other is a young male, it is merely done by different criminals who had different approaches. However as much as Amanda's crime went, one can assume it is an act of Rum's to do an excellent job. He could've escaped without any reason to kill Koji even if Amanda is his fan, the alternative is that Koji's killer is someone different than Rum who had different approach. The best suitable criminal would be the bodyguard Asaca, who either acted on him/herself or maybe was employed by Amanda who's BO ties made her think to cut all links with the CIA and FBI thus making Tsutomo Akai investigating her, while Amanda lowered Koji's alert by visiting him as a 'fan' with a bodyguard. However after she was killed by Rum, as the BO suspected she would cut her ties with them and the CIA FBI making her a liability. Asaca beaten Koji Almost to deat, as she/he heard Rum approaching Asaca quickly escaped. Rum having thought it out that Asaca is the killer, he inject the barely living Koji with the APTX 4869 and killing him with the finishing blow and blaming it all on Asaca. Rum's mistake is only the evidence left behind by Koji, who simply alluded to two different killers of him and Amanda ASACA and RUM. If Wakasa Rumi is Asaca then she is most likely vengeful for the BO for blaming her for both murders, however this would contradict the theory that Haibara feels she is safe and the fact that she is taking care of the DB. Tsutomo however, was followed by BO for his investigations, and after they find out about him mingling in Amanda's business, he decides to disappear. Akai probably knew his father had infiltrated the BO and so did his mother since she was the sister of their lead scientist, therefore forcing him to join the FBI who has yet to infiltrate the BO. Since the BO are setting their eyes on CIA and MI6 (due to Tsutomo and Mary). 

 

Regarding Rum, I'm suspecting the old blind man at the Kendo tournament. If you think about it, he might've done some digging and knew a murder will occur and where. Thus anticipating it, and sitting there in advance pretending to be blind. He also provided a fabricated clue in order to test whether his suspensions are wrong or right regarding the fact that Conan is the true brains and likely is Shinichi, he knew this probably from the Metropolitan police inside man from the BO who heard from Kuroda about Conan being the sac of wisdom. However the one who did solve the crime at the end is Heiji which might have unintentionally helped Conan to throw off the blind man's suspensions. However I have nothing to back this theory expect for the mere fact that the blind man was way too mysterious and shady (Why in the world would someone sit next to the bathrooms), wearing a black shirt and having those shady eyeglasses glare that Conan exhibits when he solves a crime. It is only a theory, and a weak one.   

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

5 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Regarding Rum, I'm suspecting the old blind man at the Kendo tournament.

 

5 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

IRum having thought it out that Asaca is the killer, he inject the barely living Koji with the APTX 4869 and killing him with the finishing blow and blaming it all on Asaca. Rum's mistake is only the evidence left behind by Koji, who simply alluded to two different killers of him and Amanda ASACA and RUM.

I like the creativity behind splitting the dying message into two parts, but this part seems like the weakest link in this theory. Why would Rum go out of his way to get involved in someone else's murder job? True, doing his murder while another is being committed so the other killer takes the blame is a viable strategy, but the problem is that this scenario as you conceived it doesn't achieve this objective. If Killer A kills Victim A, and Killer B kills Victim B, but Killer B wants to blame it on Killer A, then Killer B needs to make his murder look like Killer A's style, use the same murder weapon, disguise like Killer A, or something like that. If Victim A is Kohji and Killer A is Asaka, then Killer A is a messy incautious person. Killer B didn't match that modus operandi by killing Victim B (Amanda) so cleanly.

The other weak point is how would Kohji have time to leave the dying message or even know that someone named Rum was going to kill him while he was lying there in a half-dead state, having already been thrashed by Asaka as you theorized? The cutting of the glass mirror requires concentration, time, and being able to stand at the sink in Amanda's room (the sink was left running in that room so it makes sense for Kohji to cut it there.) I could see Kohji pulling it off as a healthy young man dying of APTX slowly and pouring in his last strength, but someone beaten to hell and back would have a hard time.

 

My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength.

3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers).

4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked.

 

One definitely half-baked idea I want to throw out there, as weird as it sounds, is that Kohji could have moved between rooms to protect someone who was secretly present at or present but incapacitated in one of the rooms as a witness. Rum didn't know that witness was there and committed the murders, but Kohji didn't want the innocent witness discovered and did the whole room switch thing to provide an opportunity for this person to mix in with the first discoverers and escape. Asaka is the most sensible candidate of course, but I can't explain why he/she would be hidden and not trying to smash Rum's face in as a bodyguard ought to save Amanda and Kohji. As for how Rum could have overlooked them... uh maybe he had a one eye problem and just totally missed them obviously because they were in his blindspot? That might explain how Asaka knows the killer has a fake eye/is blind on one side and gets triggered by half-blind people.... (kind of implying Asaka is Rumi here)

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

 

 

My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength.

3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers).

4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked.

 

 

1) Kohji was found in his own room not in Amanda's.

2) Kohji's body was found with bruises which can be caused if scissors are being gripped tightly. Now the question is whether he dies with the scissors in his hand or not. Probably not because the scissors were found lying around the crime scene, so the mess created in the bathroom of Haneda Koji can be explained, but the mess in his room is due to the confrontation between the killer and Kohji.

3) Mary laughed off the notion that Asaka was a female carrying a hand-mirror as boring, so this implies Hotta saw a different woman who was also related in Kohji case but ont Asaka and/or Asaka wasn't a woman in the first place.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

 

3 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength.

3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers).

4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked.

 

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

1) Kohji was found in his own room not in Amanda's.

2) Kohji's body was found with bruises which can be caused if scissors are being gripped tightly. Now the question is whether he dies with the scissors in his hand or not. Probably not because the scissors were found lying around the crime scene, so the mess created in the bathroom of Haneda Koji can be explained, but the mess in his room is due to the confrontation between the killer and Kohji.

3) Mary laughed off the notion that Asaka was a female carrying a hand-mirror as boring, so this implies Hotta saw a different woman who was also related in Kohji case but ont Asaka and/or Asaka wasn't a woman in the first place.

 

>>>><<<<

English Protip: Boring means "Uninteresting". Boring does not mean Wrong.

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Chekhov MacGuffin
ragetyped a comma instead of a period.

[gg1998 3]

• How can you explain the opened taps in Kohji's bathroom, but no such tap was opened in Amanda's bathroom, cherry-picking my post won't help, because I was talking about the bruise in his hand not the bruises on his body.
• Why Koji's blood wasn't found in Amanda's room? Amanda's room was very clean to begin with and there was no sign of a fight.
• If Mary found it boring then it means there was nothing new which Hotta added to her information content, which means Mary has reason to believe that there's more to the case.
• A protip for you, read the relevant file before posting,(https://giphy.com/gifs/dr-house-ehRshSN4PF9G8)

 

11 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

5 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

I like the creativity behind splitting the dying message into two parts, but this part seems like the weakest link in this theory. Why would Rum go out of his way to get involved in someone else's murder job? True, doing his murder while another is being committed so the other killer takes the blame is a viable strategy, but the problem is that this scenario as you conceived it doesn't achieve this objective. If Killer A kills Victim A, and Killer B kills Victim B, but Killer B wants to blame it on Killer A, then Killer B needs to make his murder look like Killer A's style, use the same murder weapon, disguise like Killer A, or something like that. If Victim A is Kohji and Killer A is Asaka, then Killer A is a messy incautious person. Killer B didn't match that modus operandi by killing Victim B (Amanda) so cleanly.

The other weak point is how would Kohji have time to leave the dying message or even know that someone named Rum was going to kill him while he was lying there in a half-dead state, having already been thrashed by Asaka as you theorized? The cutting of the glass mirror requires concentration, time, and being able to stand at the sink in Amanda's room (the sink was left running in that room so it makes sense for Kohji to cut it there.) I could see Kohji pulling it off as a healthy young man dying of APTX slowly and pouring in his last strength, but someone beaten to hell and back would have a hard time.

 

My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength.

3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers).

4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked.

 

One definitely half-baked idea I want to throw out there, as weird as it sounds, is that Kohji could have moved between rooms to protect someone who was secretly present at or present but incapacitated in one of the rooms as a witness. Rum didn't know that witness was there and committed the murders, but Kohji didn't want the innocent witness discovered and did the whole room switch thing to provide an opportunity for this person to mix in with the first discoverers and escape. Asaka is the most sensible candidate of course, but I can't explain why he/she would be hidden and not trying to smash Rum's face in as a bodyguard ought to save Amanda and Kohji. As for how Rum could have overlooked them... uh maybe he had a one eye problem and just totally missed them obviously because they were in his blindspot? That might explain how Asaka knows the killer has a fake eye/is blind on one side and gets triggered by half-blind people.... (kind of implying Asaka is Rumi here)

Regarding your first thoughts , I think that Rum didn't know about the intended crime of Kohji's. Here how it might've happened؛ Rum arrived to kill Amanda, however Asaca went on to kill Kohji. Rum having killed Amanda, he heard someone coming in so he hid in the room. Kohiji arrived having out run his killer and is leaving the evidence behind, however he witness Amanda's body and figure out it is Rum's doings since Amanda has already leaked to Kohji about the existence of Rum. So he leaves behind evidence regarding both Rum and Asaca, and just as Rum is about to come out and kill Kohji. Asaca arrives and beats Kohji, however Asaca hears Rum and quickly escapes  (it could be also that Kohji was attacked as he was exiting Amanda's room). Rum enters the room out of his hiding place, and thinks of blaming it all on Asaca. So he goes after the beaten Kohji whos crawling his way back to his room to hide his hints, Rum catches up and kills him using APTX 4869. However Rum fails at noticing the evidence left behind, and if Amanda and Kohji knew about Rum's existence then it is most likely Asaca knew as well. Thats why Asaca went into hiding, and why the BO freaks out about anything related to Asaca who knows about Rum and might expose his crime.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

9 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

Regarding your first thoughts , I think that Rum didn't know about the intended crime of Kohji's. Here how it might've happened؛ Rum arrived to kill Amanda, however Asaca went on to kill Kohji. Rum having killed Amanda, he heard someone coming in so he hid in the room. Kohiji arrived having out run his killer and is leaving the evidence behind, however he witness Amanda's body and figure out it is Rum's doings since Amanda has already leaked to Kohji about the existence of Rum. So he leaves behind evidence regarding both Rum and Asaca, and just as Rum is about to come out and kill Kohji. Asaca arrives and beats Kohji, however Asaca hears Rum and quickly escapes  (it could be also that Kohji was attacked as he was exiting Amanda's room). Rum enters the room out of his hiding place, and thinks of blaming it all on Asaca. So he goes after the beaten Kohji whos crawling his way back to his room to hide his hints, Rum catches up and kills him using APTX 4869. However Rum fails at noticing the evidence left behind, and if Amanda and Kohji knew about Rum's existence then it is most likely Asaca knew as well. Thats why Asaca went into hiding, and why the BO freaks out about anything related to Asaca who knows about Rum and might expose his crime.

I think that makes more sense. Correct me if I am wrong, but here's how I think you've ordered events.

1. Amanda and Kohji meet at some previous time and Amanda tells Kohji about Rum. (Dunno why since Kohji is a just a chess/shogi player, but in Gosholand all sorts of weirdos turn out to be intelligence people.)

2. Amanda is in her room and Kohji is in his. Asaka enters Kohji's room and Rum enters Amanda's room. This happens roughly about the same time. Neither are initially aware of one another.

3. Rum kills Amanda. We don't know the method since that info was not given to us.

4. At the same time 3 is happening, Asaka tries to kill Kohji, but it doesn't go so well. They violently fight it out, but before Asaka can finish Kohji, s/he hears Rum and flees [where?].

5. Kohji escapes into Amanda's room while in a beaten-up state. Rum hears Kohji come in and hides (in the room?) somewhere.

6. Kohji sees Amanda's body and suspects Rum (not Asaka) did it. He starts making a dying message in Amanda's room at her sink.

7. Rum comes out of his hiding place, evaluates the situation, and decides to kill Kohji.

8. Rum catches up to Kohji, who has undertaken the effort of going back to his room to leave the dying message, gives him APTX, and he dies.

9. Rum doesn't notice the dying message and leaves.

(10. Asaka returns to the scene of the crime and runs off with the handmirror.)

 

If the setup is as you described, then parts 7-9 have the most problems. Rum was hiding while Kohji turned on the sink, made loud glass cutting sounds, and then held the mirror as he crawled back to his own room. Rum should have noticed that Kohji was prepping a dying message, even if he was out of line of sight while hiding nearby. Also, I am confused why Kohji needs to crawl back to his own room instead of leaving the message and his body in Amanda's room. Finally, if Rum wanted to keep his hands clean, I could see why he might use APTX, but it would fit Asaka's modus more if he just beat Kohji to death with something on hand like a chair. Overall this version is an improvement over the previous iteration.

[Shinan-Kudogawa 26]

13 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I think that makes more sense. Correct me if I am wrong, but here's how I think you've ordered events.

1. Amanda and Kohji meet at some previous time and Amanda tells Kohji about Rum. (Dunno why since Kohji is a just a chess/shogi player, but in Gosholand all sorts of weirdos turn out to be intelligence people.)

2. Amanda is in her room and Kohji is in his. Asaka enters Kohji's room and Rum enters Amanda's room. This happens roughly about the same time. Neither are initially aware of one another.

3. Rum kills Amanda. We don't know the method since that info was not given to us.

4. At the same time 3 is happening, Asaka tries to kill Kohji, but it doesn't go so well. They violently fight it out, but before Asaka can finish Kohji, s/he hears Rum and flees [where?].

5. Kohji escapes into Amanda's room while in a beaten-up state. Rum hears Kohji come in and hides (in the room?) somewhere.

6. Kohji sees Amanda's body and suspects Rum (not Asaka) did it. He starts making a dying message in Amanda's room at her sink.

7. Rum comes out of his hiding place, evaluates the situation, and decides to kill Kohji.

8. Rum catches up to Kohji, who has undertaken the effort of going back to his room to leave the dying message, gives him APTX, and he dies.

9. Rum doesn't notice the dying message and leaves.

(10. Asaka returns to the scene of the crime and runs off with the handmirror.)

 

If the setup is as you described, then parts 7-9 have the most problems. Rum was hiding while Kohji turned on the sink, made loud glass cutting sounds, and then held the mirror as he crawled back to his own room. Rum should have noticed that Kohji was prepping a dying message, even if he was out of line of sight while hiding nearby. Also, I am confused why Kohji needs to crawl back to his own room instead of leaving the message and his body in Amanda's room. Finally, if Rum wanted to keep his hands clean, I could see why he might use APTX, but it would fit Asaka's modus more if he just beat Kohji to death with something on hand like a chair. Overall this version is an improvement over the previous iteration.

More or less the order is right, but perhaps Rum did not know how many people were in the room, so he decided to wait on it since he heard no scream. Rather than exposing himself, he would wait for a minute maybe while texting someone. Kohji, for his part would want to hide the mirror in his already messy room since it wouldn't make sense for a cut mirror to be on his body or Amanda's. So he tries his best to hide it by moving to his room, for it is the best option he could've think so in his state. Rum also knows about APTX way of killing, so since he is short on time and don't want to implicate another culprit is involved in the crime by using a tool that is not compatible with Asaca (Asaca perhaps brought his/her weapon and  beaten Kohji with it, so using another tool would implicate another person. Hence it is best to use APTX in order to ensure nothing traces back to him).

[gg1998 3]

13 hours ago, Shinan-Kudogawa said:

More or less the order is right, but perhaps Rum did not know how many people were in the room, so he decided to wait on it since he heard no scream. Rather than exposing himself, he would wait for a minute maybe while texting someone. Kohji, for his part would want to hide the mirror in his already messy room since it wouldn't make sense for a cut mirror to be on his body or Amanda's. So he tries his best to hide it by moving to his room, for it is the best option he could've think so in his state. Rum also knows about APTX way of killing, so since he is short on time and don't want to implicate another culprit is involved in the crime by using a tool that is not compatible with Asaca (Asaca perhaps brought his/her weapon and  beaten Kohji with it, so using another tool would implicate another person. Hence it is best to use APTX in order to ensure nothing traces back to him).

Here the two assumption you are making which seem to be a little contentious 

1) Even if Amanda exposed Rum's name to Kohji, how was he so sure that Rum has done it in the first place, his first instinct would be to implicate Asaka.

2) So you're saying that Kohji already cut the mirror in Amanda's bathroom but then why the taps were left opened in Kohji's bathroom?(Okiya Subaru confirms this while he was asking whereabouts of the clenched scissors case.)3) 

On 09/05/2017 at 7:44 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

 

 

My take on the case right now, not knowing much about the room setup, is that Kohji trashed his own room to hide his dying message after making it in Amanda's room. The way I see this roughly going down is:

1: Amanda and Kohji were both "killed" in Amanda's room. After getting physically assaulted by Rum (explaining the face injures) to subdue him, Kohji was dosed with APTX. Rum took off or was otherwise uninvolved after this because he thought this part of his job was done.

2: Kohji didn't die immediately. Instead, he cut the mirror he habitually carried with him at Amanda's sink with the last of his strength.

3: Kohji went back to his own room for whatever reason, dropped the shards and the mirror, and chucked a bunch of stuff on the floor so the mirror wouldn't immediately be recognized as a dying message (thus preventing it from being tampered with in case his killer returned to the scene or had accomplices among the first discoverers).

4. Kohji succumbed. There isn't much blood around his smashed up face because he died somewhere different than he was attacked.

 

 

1) If Kohji was beaten in Amanda's room then why Amanda's room wasn't in disarray?(If it was then it would have been mentioned by the uploader)

2) Why Kohji drag himself to his room, when he can leave the dying message in Amanda's room?

3) Even if Kohji was poisoned in Amanda's room then why the scissors which he used was found in his room, not Amanda's?

4) Why  taps taps in Kohji's bathroom were kept opened?(Subaru confirmed it implicitly.)

5) Kohji's face was bruised but we don't see blood clotting/dried blood over the injuries, if there was bleeding then clotting/dried blood would have been there?

(Answer these questions without name calling, if you fail then probably you're not worthy of any discussion/my time.)