[SPOILER DISCUSSION] File 981-983: Butsumetsu

[MeiTanteixX 184]

4 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

 

Realistically, what Japanese songs recite Hyakunin Isshu poems? And who just hangs out listening to music with one earbud in during a murder case? He's communicating with someone. Maybe Gosho will drop a hint in the third chapter. Again, my bet is the movie Momiji girl.

 

Then is there a translation error in the side-note at the end?("the hint lies within the old song")

[Serinox 127]

Afaik, song and poem are often used synomously in the Japanese language, because you can of course just sing poems instead of normally reciting them. Doesn't change the fact that it is unlikely that he just happened to listen to some Hyakunin Isshu song collection (or something like that) and that it is very unusual to keep listening to it on one ear during a murder and a police investigation right in front of you. 99% sure he is communicating with someone.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

38 minutes ago, Serinox said:

Afaik, song and poem are often used synomously in the Japanese language, because you can of course just sing poems instead of normally reciting them. Doesn't change the fact that it is unlikely that he just happened to listen to some Hyakunin Isshu song collection (or something like that) and that it is very unusual to keep listening to it on one ear during a murder and a police investigation right in front of you. 99% sure he is communicating with someone.

was just going off of the side-note and that he claims to be listening to music. if "Old song"="poem", then it's obvious to me that he heard it from someone, since u can see the lines in the dialogue box, implying that something is being said(and if not a "song", than it's a person).

[Serinox 127]

26 minutes ago, MeiTanteixX said:

was just going off of the side-note and that he claims to be listening to music. if "Old song"="poem", then it's obvious to me that he heard it from someone, since u can see the lines in the dialogue box, implying that something is being said(and if not a "song", than it's a person).

Or he received a message from his partner or someone (e.g. that I personally don't agree with: someone is bugging the Detective Agency above while Wada is there for backup) that they are finished with their job and that it is time to go, which is why Wada is giving Conan & Co. the poem because he wants to leave now and needs the case resolved.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

3 hours ago, Serinox said:

Or he received a message from his partner or someone (e.g. that I personally don't agree with: someone is bugging the Detective Agency above while Wada is there for backup) that they are finished with their job and that it is time to go, which is why Wada is giving Conan & Co. the poem because he wants to leave now and needs the case resolved.

That's an interesting theory,...although it's mostly stretched out assumptions(Kogoro was there after all, and it's a risky move to break-in without sufficient "Kogoro-routine" knowledge(something that only Amuro has)...

That also puts Wada way up on the intelligence/deduction-skill chart

[Jimmy-kud0-tv2 34]

5 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

That's an interesting theory,...although it's mostly stretched out assumptions(Kogoro was there after all, and it's a risky move to break-in without sufficient "Kogoro-routine" knowledge(something that only Amuro has)...

That also puts Wada way up on the intelligence/deduction-skill chart

 

Considering that Kogoro is very vocal about his obsession with Yoko, and that there is a Yoko program on his tv in the random cut away, they at least would have reason to believe that he would be at home occupied and attempting to watch it at that time. 

[Red Comet 4]

On 2016/12/15 at 11:57 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

This is a pretty out there idea, but maybe this new guy isn't plot, but instead related to the movie character Momiji Ooka? This is a Hattori case, and the guy mentioned something to do with Hyakunin Isshu karuta, which is the sport Momiji Ooka is a champion in. Maybe she sent the guy as a stalker to keep Heiji and Kazuha from having a good time because, uh, vague handwavey women-can-be-creepy-and-possessive reasons? And he is telling her what is going on and listening to her through the earpiece? That might explain the sudden Hyakunin Isshu recital at the end of the case after listening to someone on the earpiece.

Also the guy's "fake" last name being the same as Ran's Hyde High rival Hina Wada is something to think about too. Both names he used are people connected to Ran, even though he spelled Shinichi differently.

Also, some "medical personnel" he is. He did jack to help the injured vic...

I dunno, I think I'm letting personal bias create excuses for this guy not to be a valid Rum suspect or main plot involved, because I don't want there to me more suspects than we already have...

 

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Let’s talk case! I like the case so far. It's a simple, yet solid locked room setup and the first case to have me excited for a while now. I hope the solution is equally as good!

Here's my rundown as I see it.

  Reveal hidden contents

The obvious reason why no one has blood on them is because either 1) the attempted murder was done at a relative distance, 2) The culprit used a shield that was quickly disposed of. Both are reasonable options, although the disposal one needs somewhere good to stash the shield which there are not many of in the store and personal belongings. To figure out which one was used, we need to examine the circumstances of the crime in greater detail.

 

Right away there is a contradiction to note. There was a massive splash of blood, yet the knife is mostly clean except for the tip. That’s pretty odd considering even Conan and Hattori got some. That suggests to me the knife was mostly shielded. If you tried to put a knife on a stick like a makeshift naginata or fired it on a crossbow, the blood would get even on the handle. So, I think the answer to the above question is that the shielded method was used.

(You could front a more complicated explanation, like the knife is a decoy and real weapon is something else, but then how would you get real fresh blood on it in the right pattern? Was the blood fake? That’s making things pretty complicated when usually the simplest explanation is the most likely.)

We also know blood splashes out from the wound when the knife in withdrawn. That means the direction of the stabbing was roughly from an angle arc covering Hattori's table to the table. That matches up with Tengo's posture art at the time of the blackout and apparent stabbing in the dark. I do notice Tengo seemed to be swiveling in the dark scene, like someone was behind him was grabbing for a reach-around stab…

So, I might as well cut right to the chase. I think Oozumi Meisuke came out of the bathroom in the dark to stab Anzai Tengo, with Yamashita Yui as an accomplice. He then retreated to the bathroom and tossed out the shield and the item he used to see through the frosted glass. The two practiced on the replica Poirot set.

Problem one: how Oozumi could see where everyone is sitting through a frosted window.

Solved with the scotch tape on his present for Yui. There are some cheats that let you look through frosted glass, but only if it is the right kind of frosted glass and you are on the right side of it. Assuming detective conan logic, the situation is almost always to the culprit's advantage. You simply paste the scotch tape on the rough side of the window.

Then you can peel it off after peeking and toss it out. Then Oozumi waits for that weird computer boot up sound to alert him that it is go time soon.

Problem two: how Oozumi could avoid a blood splash.

Solved with Yui’s scarf, which she handed him in the dark. She took it off when she sat down, and then it was unaccounted for later in the crime scene investigation. Oozumi took it back with him into the bathroom. He could easily toss it out the bathroom window, a window that overlooks trashcans in an alley that Kogoro once climbed out of to run away from café Poirot in an earlier case (57-8 (594) p4. It's hard to tell, but I don't think the frosted glass existed at that time :P.)

Motive-wise, I think the previous theater club leader intended to shank someone, which explains why he built an exact set. He just never got to put his plan into practice and the other two took his idea for later use.

So, let’s rule out some other people. Shinichi Wada, although suspicious, was blocked by Amuro’s big fat butt in the only walking space between Hattori and Conan’s table and the bar. Nagatsuka Minoru could have done the stabbing with Yui as an accomplice, but had nowhere to dispose of any item to block the blood splash. Amuro, Azusa, Hattori, and Conan have no motive.

 

983 spoiler pics come out. http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4909418799

 

 

I think you've come to the truth. The culprit used cellophane tape trick. Besides, Shinichi Wada was a fake name. The new character is the bulter of Momiji. He recited the poem as Momiji ordered, who heard a  very  faint sound of sth stuck to be removed.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

7 hours ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

 

Considering that Kogoro is very vocal about his obsession with Yoko, and that there is a Yoko program on his tv in the random cut away, they at least would have reason to believe that he would be at home occupied and attempting to watch it at that time. 

But they would have to take into consideration that he sometimes works at those times and that he sometimes records them so that he can watch them later...

 

16 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

983 spoiler pics come out. http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4909418799

I think you've come to the truth. 

  Reveal hidden contents

The culprit used cellophane tape trick. Besides, Shinichi Wada was a fake name. The new character is the bulter of Momiji. He recited the poem as Momiji ordered, who heard a  very  faint sound of sth stuck to be removed.

Don't spoil by confirming things...

[Red Comet 4]

@MeiTanteixX

Sorry. I was too excited to talk about the new spoiler. I‘ve reedited the post.

 

[MeiTanteixX 184]

11 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

@MeiTanteixX

Sorry. I was too excited to talk about the new spoiler. I‘ve reedited the post.

 

I understand, it's ok.

Thanks for changing it!

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

On the 983 spoilers:

 

Spoiler

I very much hope that Momiji and Muga will actually play a role beyond being both spanner in the works and an incentive to get together for Heiji and Kazuha—Gosho must be building up to both Movie 21 and an upcoming case in the manga. After all, he can't be building up for just a non-canon movie—thus, he must be building up for a future Heiji case, in which Momiji will actually interact with Heiji and the others. Maybe we'll even get it in April 2017.

 

Muga's introduction in this case is going to give the anime staff a problem—if he is in Movie 21, the anime adaption of this case will be spoiled (since normally, this case wouldn't be adapted until December 2017), in terms of the identity of "? ? ? ?", once they see Movie 21. They're really going to have to mess with the order if they want to introduce him before the movie.

 

[Red Comet 4]

According to some Japanese fans, Momiji's family name might have a connection with

大岡忠相 (Ooka Tadasuke), aka 大岡越前 (Ooka Echizen), a famous  magistrate of Edo in the service of the tokugawa shogunate. The name 'Toyama' comes from Edo period "police detective" Kagetomo Toyama. People often bracket Toyama and Ooka together, in despite of they were not contemporaries. That's to say, fathers are rivals.

What's more, in "Ooka Echizen", a long running TV series about Ooka, one of the main characters was doctor 榊原伊織 (Sakakibara Iori), a bosom friend of Ooka, played by   竹脇無我 ( Muga Takewaki). It seems like that 伊織無我 (Iori Muga) get his name from this fictional role and its actor.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

On 12/26/2016 at 8:38 AM, Red Comet said:

 

According to some Japanese fans, Momiji's family name might have a connection with

 

大岡忠相 (Ooka Tadasuke), aka 大岡越前 (Ooka Echizen), a famous  magistrate of Edo in the service of the tokugawa shogunate. The name 'Toyama' comes from Edo period "police detective" Kagetomo Toyama. People often bracket Toyama and Ooka together, in despite of they were not contemporaries. That's to say, fathers are rivals.

What's more, in "Ooka Echizen", a long running TV series about Ooka, one of the main characters was doctor 榊原伊織 (Sakakibara Iori), a bosom friend of Ooka, played by   竹脇無我 ( Muga Takewaki). It seems like that 伊織無我 (Iori Muga) get his name from this fictional role and its actor.

 

 

 

I think you just found the reason why Gosho named the butler Muga Iori, and chose Ooka to be Momiji's surname.

Two more characters with names based on Japanese history, huh? There's Gosho for ya'.

 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

That Ran-Kazuha confession scene was really, really weird. It seems like Gosho was going for some sort of melodrama, but it just didn't work. Ran suddenly trying to impersonate Heiji and pretty viciously rubbing in the fact that a murder case has yet again gotten in the way of finalizing the relationship seems like it should be played off as funny. But the scene was serious. Nobody laughed. And thus it was weird and awkward.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

On 12/31/2016 at 1:44 AM, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

That Ran-Kazuha confession scene was really, really weird. It seems like Gosho was going for some sort of melodrama, but it just didn't work. Ran suddenly trying to impersonate Heiji and pretty viciously rubbing in the fact that a murder case has yet again gotten in the way of finalizing the relationship seems like it should be played off as funny. But the scene was serious. Nobody laughed. And thus it was weird and awkward.

 

Sorry, but I'm not getting it.

 

Ran was trying to cheer her up, and Kazuha seemed happy with her doing that. So I'd say it was more of a sweet little moment than "melodrama" and "funny..." sorry, I'm still not getting how you got those two things out of that scene.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

1 hour ago, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Sorry, but I'm not getting it.

 

Ran was trying to cheer her up, and Kazuha seemed happy with her doing that. So I'd say it was more of a sweet little moment than "melodrama" and "funny..." sorry, I'm still not getting how you got those two things out of that scene.

 

Melodrama because it was supposed to be a dramatic and somewhat serious moment given backdrop and the way their characters were presented. It wasn't a lighthearted, goofy moment.

 

As for my point, try to imagine that scene played out by your real life friends in your head, and what their honest reactions would be. The boyfriend of one of your besties stood her up, and she's kinda down about it, so you -out of the complete blue- try to imitate his voice and confess love to your friend. .... Yeah.

 

9 times out of 10, assuming your friends are semi-average, will give you a wtf look and some awkward giggling. Hopefully you didn't hurt their feelings by reminding them they got stood up (even if it was for good reasons). Maybe you have a chill friend and they break out laughing. The last thing that would realistically happen is staring deeply into each others eyes while blushing, unless you and your friend are secretly crushing on one another. And that's why I thought this scene was awkward as hell .

 

It's a "cute moment" in the same sense that a "culprit's gun can fire bullets which curve around corners" could be a murder trick. You can certainly use it, but some people are going to drop their suspension of disbelief.

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

I'm actually with Chek on this one. It seemed very much out of character for Ran, who is usually so supportive of Kazuha in her efforts to get closer to Hattori, to be so callous as to pull a stunt like that. It came across to me as a slap in the face, and Kazuha not taking offense seemed even more implausible. Had I been in Kazuha's position and had a friend do something like that, I would have been pissed. I still love the series, and I still think Aoyama-sensei is a great mangaka, but I really think he screwed up with that scene.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

12 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

As for my point, try to imagine that scene played out by your real life friends in your head, and what their honest reactions would be. The boyfriend of one of your besties stood her up, and she's kinda down about it, so you -out of the complete blue- try to imitate his voice and confess love to your friend. .... Yeah.

 

9 times out of 10, assuming your friends are semi-average, will give you a wtf look and some awkward giggling.

 

Keep in mind that the delivery is very important. In Ran's case, it was delivered with a very genuine and innocent intention. Without sound, it's hard to tell how the delivery was handled, but Ran's very embarrassed face reveals that she made an out-of-character(in terms of the way she did it) attempt to comfort her, which Kazuha obviously picked up. Not all reactions fall to your examples, since all relationships are different.

 

To begin with, Kazuha wasn't really down because Heiji stood her up. She was mostly struggling with her nervousness of confessing to him and her insecurities of actually going through with it and be able to accept Heiji's "unpredictable" reply. Ran jumped in with the confession, to console, as well as reassure, her about Heiji's answer to Kazuha.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

11 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Maybe you have a chill friend and they break out laughing.

 

It's a "cute moment" in the same sense that a "culprit's gun can fire bullets which curve around corners" could be a murder trick. You can certainly use it, but some people are going to drop their suspension of disbelief.

 

And in Kazuha's case, she reacted first by pointing out how Ran could've done it better, then thanked her—which makes Kazuha, perhaps, more than "chill."

 

Remember—Ran once took off her shirt in front of Kazuha (File 211/Episode 141), at a time when Kazuha still thought Ran and Heiji were a thing, and, thus, Ran was her rival. From that scene on, though, they've been nothing but the best of friends. So I'd say the scene from File 983 was about as unorthodox as the scene from File 211—the scene that resulted in them becoming very good friends. And then there's Ran's intent by it—it comes from a desire to try and make her feel better—Kazuha would know why Ran would do that. Ultimately, her reaction says it all—she blushes and smiles. So Ran succeeded, with her in-character desire to try to make people feel better (just like in 211 when she changed her shirt to show Kazuha that they weren't rivals over Heiji), though, this time, by doing something she normally wouldn't do (just like in 211)—well before 983, it was established that Ran had the capacity to do something like this, and Kazuha was the character she was with when she did it, so with these characters (Ran and Kazuha) in this world (the world of DC), this scene was far more believable than, say, Gin and Shuichi suddenly being able to curve bullets, like the characters from Wanted. And then there's everything in Meitantei's post, which I do very much agree with.

 

Yeah, this is definitely YMMV.

[EthanHunter 7]

Don't know how many years it'll take me to catch up with the manga now...

Btw this word butsumetsu sounds really familiar, I have a feeling it is from a DC episode I can't remember, does anyone else remember which one it is?

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

1 hour ago, EthanHunter said:

...this word butsumetsu sounds really familiar, I have a feeling it is from a DC episode I can't remember...

 

It's in the name for this case:

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Volume_48#Butsumetsu_Murder_Case

 

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/The_Evil_Spirit_Appears_on_An_Unlucky_Day