Ran finding out Conan is Shinichi?

[Antiyonder 10]

On 11/29/2011 at 10:56 PM, nis-aihara said:

This is gonna be a bummer to think. I'll be always support ShinRan! Even if I'm not a fan. . .

ShinRan 4ever! <3

 

I'm on the fence with the pairing.  If the manga glosses over the problematic nature of Shinichi's deceitfulness, I'd find it hard to feel like they're a couple with a happy/healthy future.  Ran doesn't need to go all karate girl on him or giving him death glares, but I want to see any post revelation stories showing signs that she's brokenhearted that the boy she cares about didn't trust her with the truth or respect her enough to let her make decisions that pertain to her.  And more importantly, I want Shinichi to respond with some humility and making more of an effort to take chances with her in the trust department.

[DConanSyndicate 0]

On 7/1/2017 at 11:57 PM, Antiyonder said:

 

I'm on the fence with the pairing.  If the manga glosses over the problematic nature of Shinichi's deceitfulness, I'd find it hard to feel like they're a couple with a happy/healthy future.  Ran doesn't need to go all karate girl on him or giving him death glares, but I want to see any post revelation stories showing signs that she's brokenhearted that the boy she cares about didn't trust her with the truth or respect her enough to let her make decisions that pertain to her.  And more importantly, I want Shinichi to respond with some humility and making more of an effort to take chances with her in the trust department.

 

This is an anime lol, Yes Detective crime solving show that uses every day plot devices to kill someone but they still appeal to the younger audience, which apparently attracts a lot of bad situations that end up in a "Happily ever after relationship"

[Antiyonder 10]

On 7/20/2017 at 5:44 PM, DConanSyndicate said:

 

This is an anime lol, Yes Detective crime solving show that uses every day plot devices to kill someone but they still appeal to the younger audience, which apparently attracts a lot of bad situations that end up in a "Happily ever after relationship"

Ehh.  Doesn't mean one should glorify unhealthy behavior, especially when there are one time characters who act in a sleazy manner.  Take the guy who appeared in the story where Eri made her debut.  The guy who was set to meet up with Sonoko, but Conan thought he was a date for Ran.  Said person suggesting that he would take advantage of a naive/innocent woman.  And the narrative does rightfully treat him as a jerk.

 

Yet when Conan behaves in such a manner (constant deceitfulness or cock blocking Eisuke), he gets away with it why?  Sorry, but being the main character is a ridiculous reason to look the other way, unless said character is going to actually see some development maturity wise.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

57 minutes ago, Antiyonder said:

Yet when Conan behaves in such a manner (constant deceitfulness or cock blocking Eisuke), he gets away with it why?  Sorry, but being the main character is a ridiculous reason to look the other way, unless said character is going to actually see some development maturity wise.

 

Is Shinichi comparable with that guy from File 105–File 107/Episode 32 comparable? Sure—they've both got some work to do. But are they equivalent? Nope—putting Shinichi and that guy on the same level is false equivalency. 

[Antiyonder 10]

On 7/26/2017 at 2:26 PM, DCUniverseAficionado said:

 

Is Shinichi comparable with that guy from File 105–File 107/Episode 32 comparable? Sure—they've both got some work to do. But are they equivalent? Nope—putting Shinichi and that guy on the same level is false equivalency. 

 

To give a cliff notes version here since we're discussing it in more detail elsewhere, I feel a person with good intentions acting badly is potentially worse since:

- There can be a slippery slope where a person feels that any form of action is okay if it's for a higher service.  Even if Shinichi doesn't use the good intentions card to attempt murder, I think thoughtless behavior from a loved one can arguably hurt more than any physical harm from an outside force to a degree.

 

- At least people are cautious around one who is a transparent jerk.  With the well-intentioned kind, others might not recognize jerklike behavior quite so easily.

 

And that said I get it's a Shonen trope for heroes to be flawed and that's good, especially when the story treats the harmful ones as problematic rather than dismissing them.

 

That said, I guess I expect more from Shinichi well because lets look at some other heroes:

- Yusuke Urameshi: Saving a kid at the expense of his own life was a start of him becoming such, but considering he started out as a delinquent I can't really be surprised when he's made a jerk move.

 

- Son Goku: Yeah he's not like Yusuke who was a delinquent, but when you really look at the character, he doesn't always do good for the sake of it and will make such moves like showing mercy to Vegeta (before his reform) and Frieza just to have a strong opponent to train for, contrary to the US Dubs trying to make him seem like he's doing so to be noble (i.e. letting Vegeta live to show him there's a better way than hatred).

 

For all the flaws he had in comparison, Shinichi arguably had more of a hero complex to start with, as such I feel it's legit to expect a little more of him than I would his fictional peers and feel it's more problematic when certain flaws aren't intended to be seen as problematic by the narrative.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

56 minutes ago, Antiyonder said:

I feel a person with good intentions acting badly is potentially worse...

 

At least people are cautious around one who is a transparent jerk.  With the well-intentioned kind, others might not recognize jerklike behavior quite so easily.

 

"The path to hell is paved with good intentions." I certainly get your point, but it's not a catch-all.

 

So, regardless of your perception of a person's intent, be cautious? Fair enough.

[Antiyonder 10]

I've touched on this before and even went into more detail in a PM with DCUniverseAficionado last night/this morning.

 

And for the reference this is solely from an in-universe outlook.

 

Now a big part of my problem with singling Ran out of all other people is that she has shown herself to be a capable person such as during the story setting up Okiya's introduction (well at least the part where he moved into the Kudo residence), saving Ai during the Vermouth arc which at least she knows about and even if she couldn't permanently retain her suspicion without laying her cards on the table prematurely, the fact that she was able to conceal it from a prodigy like Conan is no small feat.  And unlike the secret keepers she had to do it all without the same level of skills or connections.  Best Ran has in her pocket is her lawyer mother.

 

But just as Conan, Ai and Agasa underestimate her, is it possible that a fan like myself overestimates her?  Sure.  I mean I believe that her potential could easily be increased substantially if she had their trust and even help to improve on her capabilities (like acting lessons from Yukiko).  But her flaws do make her likely to compromise their secret.

 

So why do I remain firm on the idea that telling her would basically be a smart move?  Because for a trio of people to be that smart, it makes me puzzled that they miss the forest for the trees.

 

Starting with a couple occasions on a smaller scale, look at The Pro Soccer Player Blackmail Case and Holmes Revelation.

 

In both cases Conan has to suspend working on the cases as Ran found out that he as Shinichi is close by despite suggesting that he is out of the area.  Had Ran been in the know much early on I don't see much trouble if any.  Heck, aside from knowing the stakes, Ran's presence and knowledge means that she could help Conan with the case or just let him focus on the case while she focuses on covering any tracks they might leave.

 

And as much as The Desperate Revival is a favorite of mine and blows The Shirigama/Highway Case out of the water, it shares perhaps a moment that should have been a wake up call for Conan, Ai and Agasa.  I mean if you have the option to do so, yes keep anyone from stumbling onto the secret.  So what if the choice boils down to telling Ran or letting a bunch of red shirts witnessing the transformation?  Sorry but telling Ran, Kogoro, Kazuha, Sato, Takagi would be a lesser setback than a bunch of people who might not be able to be trust flat out or wouldn't be able to comprehend the depth of the situation.  I have a hard time believe that Ran wouldn't make the attempt to up the whole concealment if you told her that Conan's secrecy is literally a matter of life or death.

 

Or to put it another way, pretty much all of Teitan High goers found out the secret because Ran alone discovering it would signal the apocalypse.  Only reason nothing comes out of it is Heiji being there to tell people to keep Shinichi's presence and because the antidote didn't wear off as feared.  Dumb luck is a mild statement.  This is brain dead luck at it's finest.

 

 

Heck, I'll make no pretense that my commentary is fueled with bias, but when I suggest that my favorite story arc would have been averted, I think that demonstrates just how problematic the characters' line of thought is.

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

1 hour ago, Antiyonder said:

I've touched on this before and even went into more detail in a PM with DCUniverseAficionado last night/this morning.

 

And for the reference this is solely from an in-universe outlook.

 

Now a big part of my problem with singling Ran out of all other people is that she has shown herself to be a capable person such as during the story setting up Okiya's introduction (well at least the part where he moved into the Kudo residence), saving Ai during the Vermouth arc which at least she knows about and even if she couldn't permanently retain her suspicion without laying her cards on the table prematurely, the fact that she was able to conceal it from a prodigy like Conan is no small feat.  And unlike the secret keepers she had to do it all without the same level of skills or connections.  Best Ran has in her pocket is her lawyer mother.

 

But just as Conan, Ai and Agasa underestimate her, is it possible that a fan like myself overestimates her?  Sure.  I mean I believe that her potential could easily be increased substantially if she had their trust and even help to improve on her capabilities (like acting lessons from Yukiko).  But her flaws do make her likely to compromise their secret.

 

So why do I remain firm on the idea that telling her would basically be a smart move?  Because for a trio of people to be that smart, it makes me puzzled that they miss the forest for the trees.

 

Starting with a couple occasions on a smaller scale, look at The Pro Soccer Player Blackmail Case and Holmes Revelation.

 

In both cases Conan has to suspend working on the cases as Ran found out that he as Shinichi is close by despite suggesting that he is out of the area.  Had Ran been in the know much early on I don't see much trouble if any.  Heck, aside from knowing the stakes, Ran's presence and knowledge means that she could help Conan with the case or just let him focus on the case while she focuses on covering any tracks they might leave.

 

And as much as The Desperate Revival is a favorite of mine and blows The Shirigama/Highway Case out of the water, it shares perhaps a moment that should have been a wake up call for Conan, Ai and Agasa.  I mean if you have the option to do so, yes keep anyone from stumbling onto the secret.  So what if the choice boils down to telling Ran or letting a bunch of red shirts witnessing the transformation?  Sorry but telling Ran, Kogoro, Kazuha, Sato, Takagi would be a lesser setback than a bunch of people who might not be able to be trust flat out or wouldn't be able to comprehend the depth of the situation.  I have a hard time believe that Ran wouldn't make the attempt to up the whole concealment if you told her that Conan's secrecy is literally a matter of life or death.

 

Or to put it another way, pretty much all of Teitan High goers found out the secret because Ran alone discovering it would signal the apocalypse.  Only reason nothing comes out of it is Heiji being there to tell people to keep Shinichi's presence and because the antidote didn't wear off as feared.  Dumb luck is a mild statement.  This is brain dead luck at it's finest.

 

 

Heck, I'll make no pretense that my commentary is fueled with bias, but when I suggest that my favorite story arc would have been averted, I think that demonstrates just how problematic the characters' line of thought is.

 

I don't disagree that Ran finding out would be a boon to DC—I'm not the one you should be trying to convince, here, on that subject. I just disagree that her not finding out—that the actions taken by "those in the know" during stories that give her the greatest chance to find out—is as big a deal as you seem to think it is.

[Antiyonder 10]

^^^I get that, but from time to time, whether it will make any difference or not I tend to look over arguments/comments given and more details tend to come to mind that I like to divulge.

 

And hey, if there are posters who show up in the future who flat out disagree with me, then at least I like to think that at least those in disagreement can understand why I feel so strongly.

 

I think going into such details makes for a more entertaining read than just "Ran should get to find out the truth about Conan, because otherwise the story will be dullsville, dude".

[DCUniverseAficionado 252]

16 hours ago, Antiyonder said:

^^^I get that, but from time to time, whether it will make any difference or not I tend to look over arguments/comments given and more details tend to come to mind that I like to divulge.

 

And hey, if there are posters who show up in the future who flat out disagree with me, then at least I like to think that at least those in disagreement can understand why I feel so strongly.

 

I think going into such details makes for a more entertaining read than just "Ran should get to find out the truth about Conan, because otherwise the story will be dullsville, dude".

 

I get why—I just don't agree with, "Ran should get to find out the truth about Conan, because otherwise the story will be dullsville, dude", because that implies that this aspect of the story overrides all others to the point it can, on its own, make or break the whole story... and I also disagree with the assertion that since File 500/Episode 425, the way this aspect has been handled is of not just low quality, but of "this is so bad, I will give up on everything else over this" quality (and I'd still contest that assertion even if I agreed with you that this aspect of the story overrides all others to the point it can, on its own, make or break the whole story).