Prosecutability of Ai's past activities

[nanaironokaze 7]

It is actually quite unlikely as nobody other than the FBI and CIA know of the existence of the organisation. Also, Ai was never directly a part of any criminal operations the BO have participated in, so it is unlikely that anyone has any evidence to testify against her, except maybe conan. Barely anyone knows the BO exists, and even less people know of ai's past as sherry, so though ai's past activities were somewhat objectionable, knowbody can bring her to court.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Kyuu, your view of the scope of prosecutable activities and the level of evidence needed for prosecution is very mistaken. Also, Shiho is not a legitimate or sanctioned research scientist and will not be treated as such; she will be treated as a developer for an organization of murderers - like how Conan treated her when they first met.

Just a quick reminder, I am assuming a pre-escape Shiho here.

While the defense may be able to appeal to technicalities as mitigating factors, that isn't going to stop the prosecution from using whatever it possibly can and using public horror at the Black Org's activities to ensure a guilty verdict. Furthermore, you have the Japanese justice system and Shiho's disposition to consider. The conviction rate is extremely high in Japan, and Shiho is definitely the type to confess to the police about her development of the poison because she feels guilty about it. That confession will be manipulated and used against her.

I'd like to make note that the medical practitioners and scientists who stood trial in that link did completely unethical practices for the Third Reich (or other tyrannical rule). Most of their research was done in concentration camps on prisoners of war, Jews, and other live subjects. Not only that but in mass numbers, much of the testing providing astounding results at the price of torturing prisoners. So those trials and the one that would be brought up against Shiho would be completely different. She never tested on actual humans, nor did she herself force the drug to be tested on any human.

Right, but I'm pointing out researchers can be tried for their research. While Shiho did not test APTX on people as far as we know (even though she was going to and there are papers to prove it), she was most likely the lead or one of the lead scientists for the poison development, which means she is a natural target for prosecution.

In fact... And they would not try her for that because she only tested on mice. (and I highly doubt that the org would state the intent of the research on paper to be "murder" though that would be the true intent) The only people who "tested" on live humans were the murderous agents. And their actions cannot be held accountable by Shiho. She merely did the calculations, which I stated were necessary drug data.

Those included calculations for and refinement into dosages designed to be used on and lethal to humans. Even if she didn't do the act, she directly abetted it. You can't think about this like charges filed against a corporation which had some legitimate presence initially and also provides individual researchers some measure of plausible deniability and ability to escape the law. (I'm thinking IG Farben which made the gas for Nazi concentration camp gas chambers) The Black Organization is more like the Aum Shinrikyo cult (it perpetrated terrorist sarin gas attacks on subways in Japan) that engaged in many illegal activities and developed chemicals for murder. There is no legitimate guise the Black Organization operates under and it makes considerable money from assassination. Legal investigations and proceedings aren't going to be framed with the mindset that there was "legitimate" and criminal research mixed together. The investigation is going to be framed around the fact that the Black Organization is a bunch of horrific murderers who developed advanced chemicals to commit their crimes. Public horror at its deeds is only going increase the demand that all its operatives be punished, especially all the important ones - the ones with codenames.

In the cult case, the maker of the sarin was sentenced to death although he did not actually participate in any of the actual murdering. Shiho might be able to come up with some better claims, but she doesn't have any plausible deniability. 1) She got papers for testing on people knowing that the drug in its current state kills 2) saw and may have even made the checklist of people murdered by it 3) participated in a house search to make sure Shinichi was dead and marked him as dead 4) had finished capsules of poison dosed for humans where she worked (she pocketed one - and legit drug developers don't make pills of incomplete or unworking products, they just have tubes of stuff.) 5) was head or nearly the head of the APTX project.

Everyone who had a family member on that APTX list is going to be out for her blood as will the public. The state and the prosecution all want to see her punished to the maximum extent possible and they will do whatever kind deep investigation they can, and squeeze and spin any kind testimony out of anyone who has anything to say. They'll offer lower-rankers plea bargains to give testimony to nail her because she is higher up. Such a huge case like the Black Organization will also attract a lot of resources. You have to consider the Japanese criminal justice system, 99.7% conviction rate in court and the prosecutors can direct police investigation.

Furthermore, Shiho will definitely confess if interrogated that she was responsible for developing the poison because she feels guilty about it and that's the kind of personality she has. Even if she claims that was not her intent, it wasn't like she just ignored the failed version and kept trying. She tested the lethal failure and refined it, and the Org used it for murder. The prosecution will use her confession to try to convince the judges that original intent doesn't matter, what came to be does, and Shiho is going to have a really hard time escaping that.

Not only that... but this is the same organization that could destroy and change documents. Likely most evidence of any research done like that would be destroyed when compromised.

There's no point in asking a hypothetical question "could Shiho be prosecuted based on what she did" if you assume no one has evidence to prosecute with.

The courts couldn't do anything because she had NO SAY in the administering of the drug to him. She was only told to oversee the drug's progression in his body.

People who commit crimes under orders may still be prosecuted for those crimes. Aiming for complete innocence through a coercion defense would be extremely hard because Shiho had means to escape or seek help earlier. If she could go out and meet with her sister at a restaurant, why couldn't she find a way to contact the police?

Again, there are labs that are currently manufacturing DEADLY VIRUSES. If those viruses happen to be stolen (or sold by someone within the lab) to a terrorist group, the entire lab would not be implicated in trying to kill or any ethical crimes. Research is being done on Apoptosis and other molecular biological systems to induce or repress them, mostly to fight cancer. If any one of them was weaponized, it would not be the fault of the researcher unless they did something specifically unethical, like say... test on humans directly against their will.

Bad analogy. This example isn't relevant because those labs were operating legitimately and had nothing to do with the people who stole the stuff. Thus, they are not abettors.

Did she research how lethal the drug is? Sure, but think about all those drug ads that state "death" as a possible side effect. I sure as hell don't see any of those scientists going to jail for their drug killing people, even though someone likely overdosed or it was used to kill depending on how long the drug was on the market for. Simply researching how lethal a new drug is, is not grounds for anything in court.

All her test mice (but one) died, and then that drug was manufactured into pill form for assassination of humans. I don't see many researchers who make pills of human doses for failed drugs. That itself is incriminating because failed chemicals usually stay in test tubes.

Anyone prosecuting Shiho isn't going to see the remorseful side of her that has been emphasized in DC. They are going to see a woman who manufactured death drugs for her assassin keepers and they are going to treat her like that. Additionally she is going to be facing a harsh justice system, judged either by a team of judges who have "seen it all", or by a mix of judges and jurors.

This was all considering a pre-escape Shiho. Shiho post-escape would likely have the most serious of the charges dropped as part of a plea bargain for cooperating with the investigation because she had defected. Even then, I believe that she would still have to face some punishment for her crimes, and rightly so. It was with her cooperation and knowledge that people were being murdered with the poison she created and refined. She should answer to that.

[Kyuu Nye 425]

Chek, the problem is that we don't know if there is a legitimate cover story for the BO. We can't just assume that they don't have one. If anyone started sniffing it would be hard to explain certain things if they didn't. I would assume that the lab that Shiho worked in had a cover of a legitimate Biomedical or Biochemical research laboratory. Doing so would aid in getting any and all chemicals and materials needed for research, unless you assume that they got the more regulated compounds from other sources than legitimate.

With that in mind one can assume that the BO is smart and is keeping two sets of documents... One is for the public eye and the other is for their personal files that can be destroyed in case they are compromised. Again, they made a virus that destroys everything on a computer if accessed by the wrong personnel. On that same vein... the scientists probably chose that method of death because it can be covered up as anti-cancer research.

Also... even pre-escape Shiho would get certain considerations, because she was brought up within the BO, possibly brainwashed, and most certainly forced to be a part of it. She had no choice, and as I said previously, it seems that with the BO, its do or die, and there is more than enough evidence to corroborate that. So even if she did confess (which you are right, she probably would) her lawyer would certainly bring that up as a point of consideration, citing that the death of her only family member by the hands of the people that brought her up snapped her out of any brainwashing. With her upbringing it wouldn't be that difficult to do, nor to convince a jury that was the case.

I'd like to end with the fact that people confess tend to have their cases settled out of court. So there would be a debate between the prosecution and defense as to how she would be sentenced, but it wouldn't happen in court, and a judge would make the final decision on her overall sentencing rather than it be a jury of her peers. And if she made it to that point she probably would have already made a deal with any number of police organizations, because Shinichi and Yuusaku have connections to the Metro PD (both), FBI (Shinichi) and Interpol (Yuusaku). So that would be taken into account as well, it is highly likely that before the final battle went down she would give necessary information to them (in addition to likely having completed the antidote and giving it to necessary parties). So it is likely that she would have a plea deal already set up or she would have something else set up for her cooperation with whoever ends up taking down the org (most likely the FBI, and if that is so, and Akai is actually alive, that would help too because of Akai's past relationship with her sister). If she remained in the BO it would be different.

I'd like to note that I'm working off American justice system, I don't know much about Japanese... I never had to learn the Japanese justice system, nor is it particularly outlined in DC. So I'll trust you on those details. But either way, with Shiho there are more than just a few mitigating circumstances, from her upbringing, to her own refusal to continue because of the situation with Akemi, to her defection and almost immediate start of research of an antidote after defection.

[Black Demon 466]

I don't think I have anything else to say for this debate.

However, we all must remember that this series is written by Gosho Aoyama, not any of us. Therefore, what will happen to Shiho when the ending comes depends on his knowledge about laws and justice system in general, not ours. Especially when Shiho's situation is much more complicated than any ordinary murder case.

If he doesn't do his research correctly, some of the details may turn out to be false, thus different from what we have expected. Of course I must also count the possibility that we are wrong while he's the right one (after all, none of us totally understand the justice system in Japan to the rate of 100%).