Apoptoxin 4869

[Metantei Kiddo 147]

Sorry if there's already a thread somewhere about this. Since I cannot find it, I just decided to create this.

Anyway, I dunno if this idea behind the purpose of the drug is already brought up but anyway, I think the real purpose of it was to erase someone's memory/revert someone's memory to his/her childhood years and at the same time de-age the person. And then, the drug should not leave any traces at all. In this way, any crime committed using it, will be completely perfect.

If I can still remember, Pisco said that he is impressed by the development of the drug, which probably points out that de-aging was in mind.

I dunno about Gin saying that the drug should kill the taker silently, but I think this was more of a methaporical statement. He probably knew what the drug would do and what he actually mean is killing the older version of the person. Gosho used once a metaphor like that in the Night Baron Case. (The old man talking about the Night Baron Virus 'killing' his son. But the son he was actually talking about was his computer program)

I believe the reason why Gin never suspects Conan is Shinichi is that he rarely meets him and he only met Shinichi once. And besides, Gin stated once that he doesn't remember the people he had killed since they are way too many. Also, He probably thought that that the Drug was complete already.

Now this is just a theory. And I believe the true purpose of the drug for the BO was just what Gin had said, It was for those who knows too much about the Black Organization.

I know there are lots of holes in this (Gin not knowing about Haibara for example) but as I said it's just a theory. You could bring up points to prove it or disprove it, if you feel like it.

EDIT: Forget this edit lol. Chekhov already corrected me.

[ThatLee4 10]

I dont think it is justba traceless drug that kill/deages the victum. Believe its for a bigger purpose than you stated and Gin should know this also.

I think the big plan is to make a superhuman or something. As it is called the imcomplete detective. They have eternal life. And the programme system should be able to perdict outcomes and calculate deductions. But this final product will be for evil.

Gin seems almost invincible and many BO have beyond human skills

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Sorry if there's already a thread somewhere about this. Since I cannot find it, I just decided to create this.

EDIT: Since, I never found a particular thread about the purpose of the Drug, You could post your theories here if you want.

It's at the very top of the reference thread under Plot and the Black Organization. Always check the reference thread! It is a useful thing. http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/forum/topic/2757-thread-reference-guide/

[Metantei Kiddo 147]

It's at the very top of the reference thread under Plot and the Black Organization. Always check the reference thread! It is a useful thing. http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/forum/topic/2757-thread-reference-guide/

Oh sorry about that... I tend to overlook pinned threads.

My theory was that Apoptoxin was created as a immortality/youth pill by the black org, and that the whole orginization is centered around it and its successful creation.

The project failed though, and it started killing people and leaving no trace, and that's what they started using it as.

 

Flash foward to the amusement park day with Shinichi, where he was hit with a side-effect that the wiki says was a one-in-a-million chance (though I'm not sure whether this information is canon)

 

Now this is what always bothered me about Haibara's character - she broke this suspension of disbelief for me. People dropping dead where ever Conan went? Sure! The same officers every shift? Why not?

But if this info is in-universe, it's really not likely that she too would get the side effect, because that would then amp up the chances to one in TWO million, and wow, that's high, almost too high.

 

I'm not being a good detective here because it's not impossible, it's just improbable. Since detective conan is an anime series, i might be looking too much into this but still, maybe this is our link!

Those chances are just too low to not eliminate and it's more likely that to survive Apoptoxin you have to have conditions and that it's not a matter of chance.

 

1. It is specially engineered for the boss (like maybe Vermouth) and Shinichi and Haibara are relatives of her. (which would wreck havoc on some shipping charts now that I think of it)

2. The key to surviving it is a High IQ

3. Something unique about their blood or bodies that the victims share. Here I'll assume that Vermouth is the third victim.

 

Which also makes me propose this: If number three were true, remember that Shinichi also has Ran's blood inside of him.

After seeing the Clash of Red and Black, it made me wonder if Gosho would make this plot-relevant. That would be interesting.

Anyway, I feel like this is kinda way off already. I mean the Boss being related to Shinichi and Haibara and the High IQ.

There's no chemical reaction/drug that measures one's IQ since it is still debated what IQ even really measures and whether there's a relation between it and the person's logic.

And the theory kinda sounds more of conspiracy to me.

As for Haibara not making another antidote, yeah, that kinda give me chills. What if she still hasn't truly redeemed herself? What if the selfish blood that the BO has still runs through her veins?

But it's pretty improbable though, I think Gosho is holding the aptx cure development off on purpose for plot's sake.

[aasish 0]

My theory was that Apoptoxin was created as a immortality/youth pill by the black org, and that the whole orginization is centered around it and its successful creation.

The project failed though, and it started killing people and leaving no trace, and that's what they started using it as.

 

Flash foward to the amusement park day with Shinichi, where he was hit with a side-effect that the wiki says was a one-in-a-million chance (though I'm not sure whether this information is canon)

 

Now this is what always bothered me about Haibara's character - she broke this suspension of disbelief for me. People dropping dead where ever Conan went? Sure! The same officers every shift? Why not?

But if this info is in-universe, it's really not likely that she too would get the side effect, because that would then amp up the chances to one in TWO million, and wow, that's high, almost too high.

 

I'm not being a good detective here because it's not impossible, it's just improbable. Since detective conan is an anime series, i might be looking too much into this but still, maybe this is our link!

Those chances are just too low to not eliminate and it's more likely that to survive Apoptoxin you have to have conditions and that it's not a matter of chance.

 

1. It is specially engineered for the boss (like maybe Vermouth) and Shinichi and Haibara are relatives of her. (which would wreck havoc on some shipping charts now that I think of it)

2. The key to surviving it is a High IQ

3. Something unique about their blood or bodies that the victims share. Here I'll assume that Vermouth is the third victim.

 

Which also makes me propose this: If number three were true, remember that Shinichi also has Ran's blood inside of him.

After seeing the Clash of Red and Black, it made me wonder if Gosho would make this plot-relevant. That would be interesting.

I think the second point is valid, to a certain extent, because IQ is only a partial measure of mental faculties of a person. In fact, it is highly probable that APTX 4869 shrinks people who have higher neural activity, and kills those who don't. Shinichi is a detective with exceptional skills of deduction and acute observation. Haibara is a scientist, hence her thinking capability is a bit higher. It was also mentioned that she was a prodigy and started working for the Black Organization at the age of 13. Hence, Shinichi and Haibara shrank. Others didn't, and died.

[ChimericalSerenity 0]

I'm pretty sure that Apoptoxin 4869 is something along the lines of a DNA rewinder, if you can call it that. For many, it completely kills all DNA cells, which allows it to be a very instant and fatal poison. However, for some who have a gene mutation, or the likes of it, will undergo a phase of partial telophase (something along the lines of DNA rewinding? I have no detailed idea about DNA processes, but I'm guessing that's how it works?), so instead of complete cell unwind, it merely pushes the cell growth backwards, which causes the select few to deage.

 

I'm also not sure whether the poison/magic/drug whatever actually deages ten years exactly because age is a finnicky thing to calculate and the two cases that had been sucessful were both a similar age, meaning that we don't know what will happen if an older/younger person ingests 4869, but in short, it definitely causes deaging.

 

What do you guys think? (●'◡'●)

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

Since the new plot developments with Kohji's death, I have very slowly worked on several APTX-related theory sections in prep for updating the main Chek's theories document.

The two main endeavors are 1) the Unknown Drug page alleging the existence of a drug older than APTX 4869, Silver Bullet, and the Miyanos, which is still in need of additional content, and 2) A theory that Shiho's APTX 4869 version is contaminated with research from Silver Bullet which adds additional nuance to my APTX purpose theory and attempts to reconcile the other drug Shiho was asked to develop and why the Black Organization is using an untested drug for killing.

 

I'd like it if someone would "beta read" and make suggestions regarding the second theory (the X-Contamination theory). Here it is posted below.

Shiho's APTX 4869 version is contaminated with research from Silver Bullet

It is known that the APTX 4869 of 17 years ago was used for murder^[1] and that Shiho's current version of APTX 4869 is being used for the same purpose.^[2] It is unlikely that the generally cautious Black Organization would use a custom drug for murder if they knew it had a chance of shrinking the victim and leaving them alive. It also doesn't make much sense that they would kill people using an in-development drug which Shiho explicitly stated was not created for murder^[3] and which is suspected to have a somewhat miraculous end goal such as deaging, rejuvination, or immortality.

This contradiction can be explained by the Black Organization mistakenly operating on the assumption that Shiho recreated her parents' APTX 4869 (which may have been tested in the past and found to kill exclusively). It is known that a lab fire destroyed most of Elena and Atsushi's drug project research. Shiho had to piece their research together from fragments. It is certainly possible that damage from the fire destroyed certain context clues that would allow Shiho to figure out which research belonged to the APTX 4869 drug, and which belonged to Silver Bullet. In resurrecting her parents' work, Shiho mixed the research together. This hybrid is the modern APTX 4869.

Perhaps because the project took the name APTX 4869 rather than Silver Bullet and for the most part has similar deadly results, most of the Black Organization seems to have assumed that it is the same drug as before. Their ignorance can an least be partly explained by Shiho hiding certain results so that even executive members of the Organization were not aware APTX 4869 could cause de-aging.^[4] It is possible Shiho may misinformed the Organization about the status of her recreation project, not having realized she had mixed the research until after the Organization intended to use it for killing.

This mix-up explains certain conversations, such as the one with Conan about APTX 4869's history which implied the existence over another drug beyond APTX 4869.

Haibara: And the fact that [Kohji Haneda's] name was on the list of victims who were given APTX 4869, I'd say there's a good chance that Asaka was one of the members of the Black Organization!
Conan: I don't get it. Kohji Haneda was killed 17 years ago. Then why is his name under mine in the list?
Haibara: Perhaps the person who compiled the list wasn't going by chronological order. Maybe it was sorted by blood type or something.
Conan: Wait a minute, so the drug that I was forced to take existed 17 years ago? And you are its creator? How old are you really?
Haibara: How rude. I've told you before. I am 18 now. Perhaps it was an early prototype of a drug made by my parents. The information for the drug that I created was mostly taken from the burnt remains of the data that my parents left behind.
Conan: Burnt remains? What do you mean?
Haibara: Well, the research lab that my parents worked in caught fire, and along with them, most of their research materials were burnt. I heard from the other members of the Organization that it was an accident.
Well, what I was really ordered to make was another drug, however...

—Manga Volume 89, File 11 (948), Pages 3-4: "The Clenched Scissors"

In this conversation, it makes the most sense that the Black Organization was hoping that Shiho would not work on the prototype APTX 4869 used to kill in the past and instead recreate her parents' final project Silver Bullet which seems to have fallen through (perhaps by catching fire) before being completed. They gave these orders unaware that Shiho actually did what they wanted her to do, which in turn explains why Shiho said that she did not intend to create a murder drug^[3] and protested that the drug was used for killing. Instead, the Black Organization seems to mistakenly believe that Shiho had reassembled the prototype APTX 4869 of the past.

This type of development would be so very in character for Gosho, since it involves a significant degree of failing to share information and lots of secret keeping between supposed allies.

1. ^ Kohji Haneda's murder
2. ^ Gin's attempted murder of Shinichi, Pisco's backup murder plot
3. ^ ^{a b} Manga Volume 18, File 9 (179), page 9: "The Girl Made Of Lies"
4. ^ Shinichi's survival for sure, and possibly the one shrunken mouse which was tested. The most significant proof is that no one has figured out Shiho shrank to escape her handcuffs and the locked room. Someone aware of shrinking results could easily extrapolate what happened.

 

[MeiTanteixX 184]

Or,...

 

The BO started a drug research 50 years ago. It ended up failing(Vermouth's state being a possible result of that, or the boss' possible shrinking).

 

The BO wanted to use Atsushi's and Elena's research ideas("Silver Bullet") because it had potential to correct the errors of their own research or/and fix the problems that followed its failure(like the possible shrinking) if it(SB) was used as a foundation for it(BO research).

 

The Miyano parents started the "Silver Bullet" project(creation of a "dream drug"), and the BO used the funds of many contributors(like Pisco) to help them develop the "Silver Bullet" drug.

 

Roughly 18 years ago, the Miyano suddenly had a reason to "leave" their daughters and, most likely, the BO behind to finish their research. Reasons could be(could be a combination of these reasons):

• The BO started using humans as guinea pigs, which was recorded in the APTX list(which was labeled as "Silver Bullet" list in the past).
• The Miyano parents found out about the BO's criminal activities and realized that they might turn SB into a "terrifying drug".
• Elena had a sense of foreboding(similar to Haibara's sense) that someone(probably Vermouth) was gonna do something if they continued with the research(which lead to the eventual "accident", that was probably orchestrated).

It's also possible that what became an incentive for them wanting to "leave"(and for Vermouth to orchestrate the "accident") is the fact that they made unreported progress with the SB(the discovery of an effect that doesn't kill). This possibility has potential to be touched upon through the recent "Asaka's disappearance" mystery.

 

The Miyano parents were probably seeking MI6's(Mary's) help, and they most likely faced two options, where they took their daughters with them, but risked being caught, or they left their daughters and successfully fled(and ultimately saving a lot potential victims in the future).

 

Knowing that her newborn daughter might be nurtured by the BO to become a scientist that will recreate the SB project, she created the tapes for each birthday(hoping that it will support her in the future, regardless of Shiho's choices).

 

Before they could flee from their laboratory with their research materials, Vermouth trapped them inside and burned them along with their laboratory and research materials, in order to stop any possible development to the original BO research or/and something that could fix the problems that followed its failure.

 

After losing their valuable scientists, the BO decides to make Shiho their new scientist(As Elena predicted), who from the start is under the impression that her parents goal was the same as BO's research goals(Original research development or/and problem fixer). She was therefore under the impression that her parents research was something that most people would consider to be non-beneficial(Doll case), rather than what it actually was(a "dream" drug). With the remains of her parent's research material and the BO's own research materials, she created what the BO started calling "APTX 4869". Regardless of whether it was to trick Sherry or not, since the APTX's foundation was partially her parents' research, the "Silver Bullet" list's data of test subjects was still gonna contribute to the APTX development, and was relabeled as "APTX" list.

 

Sherry managed to create a drug with a shrinking side-effect. Pisco's reaction further indicates that the remains of her parents' materials have contributed to these side-effects. After hearing her mother's tape, she realizes that she was creating a completely different drug, rather than the "terrifying"/"dream" drug "Silver Bullet", and realizes that APTX 4869(or its antidote, that could be the final stage of APTX) shouldn't have been made(File 821).

[gg1998 3]

The Miyano's bodies weren't found though. I think they likely escaped and the fire was their doing so that nobody can make any progress on the damn drug.

I also think that Vermouth wasn't the one who orchestrated the fire, though she might have had planning for this but Miyanos did it before her. That's why there is her hatred against Sherry's parents. If her Shrinking wasn't the cause of the Miyanos then she had no reason to eliminate them ,to be precise the Miyanos would be her greatest ally because the SB would reverse the mechanism and Vermouth won't have to hide it anymore. Asaka wasn't possibly a victim of APTX/Silver-Bullet, else Vermouth would have taken the lead in the Asaca song case and also Hotta Gaito case.But she ceded it to Bourbon in Asaca song case and wasn't even there during Hotta's case. If Vermouth's shrinking wasn't a cause of the research of Miyanos so really doesn't need to care about the effects of Silver Bullet, because it doesn't tie her with the SB.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

3 hours ago, gg1998 said:

But she ceded it to Bourbon in Asaca song case and wasn't even there during Hotta's case. If Vermouth's shrinking wasn't a cause of the research of Miyanos so really doesn't need to care about the effects of Silver Bullet, because it doesn't tie her with the SB.

Actually, you are wrong here. Bourbon alone had orders to investigate the Asaca song. Vermouth on the other hand deliberately tried to get involved by offering Bourbon to help with a disguise.

Spoiler

 

 

Even when Bourbon declined, she still hurried to the scene with a rushed disguise and a weak excuse(considering that Bourbon has been hanging around the Mouri all this time). Then she suddenly changes subject, as if that excuse wasn't important.

Spoiler

She was also the one who asked about the "Asaca" song's name in the end. All this gives me a reason to consider that she's very much interested in the dying message and that the reason is Asaka's disappearance(which could potentially be due to the Miyano's prototype having a hidden rare side-effect that doesn't kill).

 

First of all, we don't know if her state is a result of SB or not, but even if it wasn't, she has proven to have all intentions of hindering the BO from progressing with their research, and if SB had the potential of improving the BO's results, then that's all the reason for her to destroy the Miyano's project.

[Jimmy-kud0-tv2 34]

21 hours ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Ai had to piece their research together from fragments. It is certainly possible that damage from the fire destroyed certain context clues that would allow Shiho to figure out which research belonged to the APTX 4869 drug, and which belonged to Silver Bullet.

 

The only thing I have to say is that it might be better to stick to one name rather than switching between Ai and Shiho. 

otherwise it looks pretty good. 

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

2 hours ago, Jimmy-kud0-tv2 said:

 

The only thing I have to say is that it might be better to stick to one name rather than switching between Ai and Shiho. 

otherwise it looks pretty good. 

Yep, that's a fixer. On it.

[gg1998 3]

10 hours ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Actually, you are wrong here. Bourbon alone had orders to investigate the Asaca song. Vermouth on the other hand deliberately tried to get involved by offering Bourbon to help with a disguise.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Even when Bourbon declined, she still hurried to the scene with a rushed disguise and a weak excuse(considering that Bourbon has been hanging around the Mouri all this time). Then she suddenly changes subject, as if that excuse wasn't important.

  Reveal hidden contents

She was also the one who asked about the "Asaca" song's name in the end. All this gives me a reason to consider that she's very much interested in the dying message and that the reason is Asaka's disappearance(which could potentially be due to the Miyano's prototype having a hidden rare side-effect that doesn't kill).

 

First of all, we don't know if her state is a result of SB or not, but even if it wasn't, she has proven to have all intentions of hindering the BO from progressing with their research, and if SB had the potential of improving the BO's results, then that's all the reason for her to destroy the Miyano's project.

No, Vermouth was only offering to help while keeping her distance in the first place. The conversation only means that, if you refer to the previous panel then you'll see that Vermouth clearing the air that it's Bourbon's mission in the first place. "Investigate it and then if necessary eliminate it."

Either way, now it was a joint investigation for them. If Vermouth was really trying to kill two birds by a single stone she herself could have disguised as someone close to Hado/the singer and get closer to the scene while at the same time keeping an eye on Bourbon. But that wasn't her intention, she only wanted to ensure that Bourbon doesn't try something funny with Ran and Conan. The older version of APTX only killed people(allegedly and had no shrinking effect) So Vermouth's fear is unfounded. But any progress on SB research can blast her cover and SB wasn't an APTX-prototype.

[MeiTanteixX 184]

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

No, Vermouth was only offering to help while keeping her distance in the first place. 

Helping him with a disguise involves overseeing it(in case his cover might be in danger), like in File 851-852.

 

1 hour ago, gg1998 said:

If Vermouth was really trying to kill two birds by a single stone she herself could have disguised as someone close to Hado/the singer and get closer to the scene while at the same time keeping an eye on Bourbon. 

Or, she could disguise as Azusa and have Bourbon's support whenever she lacks info on her. Don't know why you think she needs to keep an eye on Bourbon.

 

Either way, as I said, her offering a capable blackmailer help(which would get her involved in the mission), and then rushing with a disguise to the scene after this said blackmailer neglects it(with a weak excuse that was immediately averted from), gives me reason to consider this possibility.

[gg1998 3]

1 hour ago, MeiTanteixX said:

Helping him with a disguise involves overseeing it(in case his cover might be in danger), like in File 851-852.

 

Or, she could disguise as Azusa and have Bourbon's support whenever she lacks info on her. Don't know why you think she needs to keep an eye on Bourbon.

 

Either way, as I said, her offering a capable blackmailer help(which would get her involved in the mission), and then rushing with a disguise to the scene after this said blackmailer neglects it(with a weak excuse that was immediately averted from), gives me reason to consider this possibility.

Not necessarily, infact it was just a suggestion to Bourbon, even if Bourbon took it there was no surety that Vermouth would be overseeing his disguise, it isn't the same situation like file 851-852. 

To be precise she didn't just butt in, she butted in for a reason which is revealed that she doesn't trust Bourbon around Ran and Conan. That was the primary reason. Disguising as Asuza makes her dependent on Bourbon but it also ensures that Bourbon is restricted as she would be accompanying him all around the place. So her goal was to restrict/bind(figuratively) Bourbon so that he can't do stuff to Conan and Ran. She was also trying to get the hell out of there as soon as possible, so she was the one who took the lead in questioning as Bourbon seemed rather lazy in bringing up that topic. 

[MeiTanteixX 184]

It's all a matter of perspective.

[gg1998 3]

Also point to note that APTX-of the past wasn't SB. They were two different drugs, both developed by Miyanos. So even if APTX was used that APTX would have killed the victims with 100% surety. So if it was really used on Asaka then Asaka would have died in the first place.

If you ask me the basis of my assumption then I'll give you the argument that a potential revolutionary drug like SB wouldn't have been used to kill people because killing wasn't the purpose of the drug, the killing drug was APTX which wasn't SB the revolutionary drug. Vermouth being a victim of early prototype of SB would know it with 100% surety. 

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

There have actually always been a couple things that didn't sit right with me about the APTX-4869, mostly with Haibara herself at the center of it.

 

1.) In the first episode, when Vodka was about to shoot Shinichi, Gin stopped him because the police might hear the shots and pulled out the container with the drug. If I remember correctly, he described it as a new untraceable poison their scientists had developed. Fast forward to after Haibara has joined Conan, and I'm pretty sure she said that it was not developed as a poison, but she also said she didn't know what its purpose was (please correct me if I'm remembering wrong). There are a couple reasons I struggle with this one in particular. First, if she doesn't know what its purpose was, how does she know it's NOT meant to be an untraceable poison? Second, if she was the scientist working on it (or at least continuing the work on it), how could she NOT know what it's for? In order for a scientist to develop a drug, they must know what it is meant to do so they can figure out what combinations are most likely to achieve that goal. If, for example, I'm going to make a scientist work on a cure for Alzheimer's disease, I'm not going to just throw them in a lab and say, "get to work," without saying what they're supposed to work on. You might as well just throw Vodka in the lab with a chemistry set to mix random chemicals together and see what he comes up with. In short, I just can't believe Haibara didn't know what she was working on, because she would have had to know to do it.

 

2.) Haibara told Conan that she had to be careful because people from the Organization would know her if they saw her, even in a child's body. At the same time, however, she insists that nobody but her is aware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869. If nobody knows a drug can physically turn her into a six year old, she should have no reason to worry about it. If I was suddenly turned into a six year old and my mother was unaware of it, I could walk right past her and she would never suspect it was me unless I pointed it out to her; she would just think, "Wow, that kid looks just like my son did 35 years ago!" The reason for this is because, to anyone that is unaware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869, it is impossible for an adult to turn into a child, and Haibara insists that NOBODY knows. In short, if Haibara is afraid she will be recognized while she's in the body I a six year old, then she lied and is aware that somebody knows what the APTX-4869 can do.

 

It has always been clear that Haibara hasn't told Conan everything, but when considering these things, I only see two possibilities. First, that her lies are pathological and she just isn't capable of fully telling the truth (a very real possibility when you consider her upbringing within the Organization), or second, that the Organization is aware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869,  took notice of Conan's activities at the Mouri Detective Agency, and Sen Haibara to watch him and gain husband trust with a combination of lies and half-truths. If the latter is the case, it doesn't necessarily mean that all Black Organization members know of APTX-4869, but definitely the ranking members would. If anyone  can think of another reason Haibara would tell Conan these outright lies, I would love to hear it. I don't want to believe she's a bad guy!

[gg1998 3]

7 minutes ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

There have actually always been a couple things that didn't sit right with me about the APTX-4869, mostly with Haibara herself at the center of it.

 

1.) In the first episode, when Vodka was about to shoot Shinichi, Gin stopped him because the police might hear the shots and pulled out the container with the drug. If I remember correctly, he described it as a new untraceable poison their scientists had developed. Fast forward to after Haibara has joined Conan, and I'm pretty sure she said that it was not developed as a poison, but she also said she didn't know what its purpose was (please correct me if I'm remembering wrong). There are a couple reasons I struggle with this one in particular. First, if she doesn't know what its purpose was, how does she know it's NOT meant to be an untraceable poison? Second, if she was the scientist working on it (or at least continuing the work on it), how could she NOT know what it's for? In order for a scientist to develop a drug, they must know what it is meant to do so they can figure out what combinations are most likely to achieve that goal. If, for example, I'm going to make a scientist work on a cure for Alzheimer's disease, I'm not going to just throw them in a lab and say, "get to work," without saying what they're supposed to work on. You might as well just throw Vodka in the lab with a chemistry set to mix random chemicals together and see what he comes up with. In short, I just can't believe Haibara didn't know what she was working on, because she would have had to know to do it.

 

2.) Haibara told Conan that she had to be careful because people from the Organization would know her if they saw her, even in a child's body. At the same time, however, she insists that nobody but her is aware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869. If nobody knows a drug can physically turn her into a six year old, she should have no reason to worry about it. If I was suddenly turned into a six year old and my mother was unaware of it, I could walk right past her and she would never suspect it was me unless I pointed it out to her; she would just think, "Wow, that kid looks just like my son did 35 years ago!" The reason for this is because, to anyone that is unaware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869, it is impossible for an adult to turn into a child, and Haibara insists that NOBODY knows. In short, if Haibara is afraid she will be recognized while she's in the body I a six year old, then she lied and is aware that somebody knows what the APTX-4869 can do.

 

It has always been clear that Haibara hasn't told Conan everything, but when considering these things, I only see two possibilities. First, that her lies are pathological and she just isn't capable of fully telling the truth (a very real possibility when you consider her upbringing within the Organization), or second, that the Organization is aware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869,  took notice of Conan's activities at the Mouri Detective Agency, and Sen Haibara to watch him and gain husband trust with a combination of lies and half-truths. If the latter is the case, it doesn't necessarily mean that all Black Organization members know of APTX-4869, but definitely the ranking members would. If anyone  can think of another reason Haibara would tell Conan these outright lies, I would love to hear it. I don't want to believe she's a bad guy!

A great observation, but then we also have to assume one thing more, Vermouth vs Haibara arc was just a setup, if I'm to think of the second option which seems a bit far fetched. BO Jolly well knew about the research and Haibara also knew the purpose of the Drug. But as the Miyano files got burnt down, Haibara screwed up the development of the drug as she wrongly deciphered remains of the research papers of her parents'. So there probably were two drugs back then APTX for killing and SB for the magical cure/blah-blah. Only Rum was authorised to use APTX so Gin never knew that such a drug existed in the first place.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

3 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

pretty sure she said that it was not developed as a poison, but she also said she didn't know what its purpose was (please correct me if I'm remembering wrong).

I can 100% guarantee because I went back over the drug chapters semi recently that Ai definitely never said that she didn't know the drug's purpose, she only said that poison wasn't her goal. I assume she does know the end goal because she has some of her parents notes and was asked to create a certain drug. Heck even Pisco knew what the Miyanos were trying to do with their drug.

 

4 hours ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Haibara told Conan that she had to be careful because people from the Organization would know her if they saw her, even in a child's body. At the same time, however, she insists that nobody but her is aware of the de-aging side effect of APTX-4869. If nobody knows a drug can physically turn her into a six year old, she should have no reason to worry about it.

You'd think, but in practice every BO who has a good look at Ai discovered her identity. Vermouth, Pisco, Shuuichi... Even Jodie figured it out from a picture alone. Her hair color is part of the problem tbh.

 

As for why she lies, I think that she is afraid of what Conan will think of her if he knows the truth of the Org + she is ashamed of what she has done + Conan will use the info and get himself killed and Ai will blame herself for that.

 

I don't think anyone in the BO willing to talk about it knows the de-aging effects of APTX, or how Ai escaped from the locked room would not be a mystery.

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I can 100% guarantee because I went back over the drug chapters semi recently that Ai definitely never said that she didn't know the drug's purpose, she only said that poison wasn't her goal. I assume she does know the end goal because she has some of her parents notes and was asked to create a certain drug. Heck even Pisco knew what the Miyanos were trying to do with their drug.

Okay, I stand corrected. A sincere thank you as I do not want to spread false information. And yes, I remember Pisco commenting about how proud her parents would be with the progress she made (or something to that effect).

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

You'd think, but in practice every BO who has a good look at Ai discovered her identity. Vermouth, Pisco, Shuuichi... Even Jodie figured it out from a picture alone. Her hair color is part of the problem tbh.

Well, Vermouth clearly knows something about de-aging or something close to it, so her seeing through it is understandable. Pisco, if I remember correctly, actually saw her change, so his recognition was entirely predictable. Akai spent a fair amount of time around Haibara before it seemed he was certain that she was actually Shiho, so I think that had more to do with her behavior and mannerisms than just seeing her and saying, "Wait, that's Sherry!" As for Jodie, she figured out that Haibara was Sherry, but she knew next to nothing about Sherry to realize the implications of this; in fact, as I recall, she was still trying to figure out why this little girl was so important to the Organization. So, everyone we've seen recognize her had reasons for being able to do so.

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

As for why she lies, I think that she is afraid of what Conan will think of her if he knows the truth of the Org + she is ashamed of what she has done + Conan will use the info and get himself killed and Ai will blame herself for that.

I can understand this as a reason for giving incomplete information, but but not for an outright lie, especially one of this much importance.

1 hour ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I don't think anyone in the BO willing to talk about it knows the de-aging effects of APTX, or how Ai escaped from the locked room would not be a mystery.

I'm convinced that Sherry's escape is only a mystery to the Black Organization grunts and foot soldiers (like Gin and Vodka). I think Anokata, Rum, and maybe one or two others in the upper echelons are fully aware of what APTX-4869 can do and have been able to figure out how she got away. This is, of course, just my own feeling on the matter with nothing specific from canon to support it, but I just have a feeling about it.

[Chekhov MacGuffin 1089]

1 hour ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Pisco, if I remember correctly, actually saw her change, so his recognition was entirely predictable

No, Pisco first saw her as Ai with Conan when they were trying to get to the front desk to check the guest book. He saw her in the light of camera flashes, despite her wearing Conan's glasses. He then linked up to BO servers using some sort of pre-wifi laptop phone connection (must have been high tech at the time lol) to check her adult appearance. Then he snatched her and locked her in the liquor storage. All of this took place before she transformed.

 

1 hour ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

Akai spent a fair amount of time around Haibara before it seemed he was certain that she was actually Shiho

I checked this before, I remember it being a questionable call. Jodie did the most of the nosing around Haibara at first. AI hid from Akai most of the time (huddling up in her jacket hood for example) because she picked up scent from him. He never got a great look until later.

 

1 hour ago, AnimeOtakuDrew said:

I'm convinced that Sherry's escape is only a mystery to the Black Organization grunts and foot soldiers (like Gin and Vodka)

Gin is high ranking. The FBI thought capturing him would lead to the boss, which was to be the culmination of Akai's 3 year BO infiltration mission until Camel blew it. The guidebooks peg Gin highly as "oversight", and Vodka is right under him as his "secretary" (guidebook's term, not mine.)

[AnimeOtakuDrew 18]

2 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

No, Pisco first saw her as Ai with Conan when they were trying to get to the front desk to check the guest book. He saw her in the light of camera flashes, despite her wearing Conan's glasses. He then linked up to BO servers using some sort of pre-wifi laptop phone connection (must have been high tech at the time lol) to check her adult appearance. Then he snatched her and locked her in the liquor storage. All of this took place before she transformed.

It's been a long while since I read that one, so I'm not at all surprised that I was mistaken. But, considering the last time he saw her (presumably) she was fairly young, plus the fact that, as you pointed out, he did seem to be aware of the de-aging effect, it is much more understandable that he would recognize her.

2 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

I checked this before, I remember it being a questionable call. Jodie did the most of the nosing around Haibara at first. She hid from Akai most of the time because she picked up scent from him. He never got a great look until later.

True, but it also wasn't until she had warmed up a bit and started to be around him that we got any serious inclination he might know who she was.

2 minutes ago, Chekhov MacGuffin said:

Gin is high ranking. The FBI thought capturing him would lead to the boss, which was to be the culmination of Akai's 3 year BO infiltration mission until Camel blew it. The guidebooks peg Gin highly as "oversight", and Vodka is right under him as his "secretary" (guidebook's term, not mine.)

Okay, you've got me there. And, with the thought that Gin is a ranking member in mind, that could explain why Haibara is so scared of him in particular. Not only is he a ruthless SoB that clearly has some kind of history with her, but he is also ranked highly enough in the Organization that she could be concerned that he might have been told about the de-aging side effect (of course, we the audience realize he's not in the know, but she can't be certain of that).

[Shreevatsa 14]

Shelling Ford.