User talk:Wildcardmma

Suicidal Vermouth

About Vermouth's suicidal things, I put the citation needed there as a request for quotes or actions of hers that indicated suicidal intent. I was hoping you could find some for the references. In the mean time, I put it back with an invisible note pending quotes/examples in the reference. The reason I am bothering is I can think of a few lines of hers that are depressing, like "My life has represents a series of misfortunes" and "no angel has ever smiled upon me", but I cannot think of any that indicate desire for self harm, so I am questioning validity of the statement that she has shown suicidal intent. Depressing for sure though. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The inclination is "almost suicidal," as in these lines themselves are a matter of perspective; they can be read that way, but they can also be read as something different. Which way is a matter of perspective and, given the more depressing thoughts, there's plenty of merit to the idea of suicidal as is the idea of a different freedom. That's why I left it listed as "almost suicidal" as opposed to outright "suicidal" and removed the sitation; I can quote a thousand different depressing lines from Vermouth and the perspective of suicidal can be argued in almost all of them. The validity would vary, but the possibility is real, be it in Vermouth or anyone in such a state. Example, I can argue Vermouth cheering on Conan's attempt to take down the Organization as suicidal; treason is punished with murder in the Organization. However, that can just as easily be read as a desire for freedom. The bigger inclination is she always kills her characters off. Sharon Vineyard I can understand, since she was popular enough to require such a problem, but even the serial killer to draw out and kill Shuichi. People disappear, some of whom want to disappear, it's sad but true (and for in canon examples we have Numabuchi and the number of almost suicides disguised as murders). And running with the assumption concerning her, apparently, nobody parents, that would be three deaths that really didn't have to happen (although they also pivot on the idea they were all simply characters and not people like the Araides). It's cleaner for her past with murder, but not necessary. Further, deaths leave evidence no matter what you do, some disappearences don't; it's seems smarter and more Organization like to not kill a fictional character under such free circumstances. While this is all speculation, this is reason to believe Vermouth has a fascination with killing her characters, killing pieces of herself. If you can submit this in some cleaner way, or would rather argue it, I welcome you to it either way. Yes, this isn't really quotes as opposed to actions, but I couldn't think of a clean and simple way to rewrite the article with this in mind.

If you are acknowledging that her lines aren't suicidal, but instead the suicidal-ness is matter of opinion, then simply depressing by itself is enough. The same point gets made but leaves matters of interpretation out. Also, I undid some of the changes. Specifically, the one year ago is important because that is the transition from Sharon Vineyard to Chris Vineyard and thus the time frame that Vermouth would have taken APTX if she did so. Also, it is expressly clear the rest of the Black Organization doesn't know about the shrinking effects of APTX and I added a note with the explanation in the article.

Finally, the point of the following line isn't clear. "Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even need to be such a fluke that she regained her youth with it." It sounds like you are saying that because she can disguise her age, she actually de-aged or stopped aging. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 19:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Depressing" alone doesn't grant a look into her well enough; there are varying degrees of depression. "Almost suicidal" gives that perspective. The "suicidal" demonstrates the depth of the depression, while the "almost" leaves it to be made as a perspective; the whole thing is meant to read that Vermouth has said severely depressing things, things that people initiate a suicide watch for, as opposed to mildly depressing, the kind most people ignore unless someone gets dramatic. You can't accomplish such a feat with only "depressing." Even "severely depressing" doesn't cut it, since some people see depressing as black and white; it is or it isn't. There needs to be something more to grant better definition. If you have something better, then by all means post it, or take down the citation.

Further, the one year transition is irrelevant because of my last point. The last sentence was meant to illuminate the fact that we can't actually determine when exactly she regained her youth. Her disguising talents allow her to fake such a feat, so a time limit stating when she began to look young without a disguise grants a narrowed perspective that may ultimately be wrong. The whole paragraph was about APTX 4869, I thought it was logical that "it" was referring to the drug; edit that if you want, but honestly I think it's fine as is. You can add that Chris Vineyard appeared one year ago, but you can't actually say with any certainty that's when she regained her youth for real. Posting as such is posting your interpretation of the facts.

Finally, Haibara had said that one rat shrank and that she didn't report it to the Boss. However, her father also happened to be working on such a drug, Pisco's words. She said she wouldn't continue her father's work, but we know neither when she said that nor if the Organization tricked her into continuing. This is what's called an open experiment; instead of having subjects who are kept in certain conditions, they experiment with things off the street, the varying conditions of such subjects allow them to establish things that can interact with the drug and alter its destined effect. Drug companies do this, though usually when there's more certainty that they're not lethal, and people make a killing off them. Shinichi was clearly a test of the drug, both Gin's words and Haibara's presence in his house prove this. Exactly what they were testing is unknown, since we haven't heard from the Boss on this matter. While the Organization doesn't reportedly know there was a success with Haibara t the helm, this is nothing to say that they weren't testing for such a feat, and it also doesn't mean that the drug suddenly stopped being worked on. Yes, Haibara was important to the research, but losing the important scientist has never stopped scientists and companies from continuing before. Once you again, to allow such a comment to remain up is argumentative and a matter of perspective. Which is it: are you not allowing any perspectives and just the facts, or are you allowing these and their counters up? You can't keep only one interpretation up and then take down any that disagree with it just because we don't have the time to word it perfectly and you lack either the time or patience to research, change your perspective to see if it fits, and edit it to make more sense yourself. I don't have the time to carefully word my sentences, so I need someone to edit me. I thank you for these posts since they're letting me help you edit these, but don't be hypocritical.