Talk:Vermouth

Page Name

I think this page should be redirected to Vermouth. Sharon Vineyard may not be Vermouth's first disguise and thus not her true name. Sharon Vineyard had a mother who died in a fire on the day of her debut. Vermouth is more general and thus less likely to need changing later. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Plot overview

If anyone want to help with the plot overview for Vermouth, please help format it by case, elaborate, and make it grammatical here: User:Chekhov MacGuffin#Vermouth timeline for Plot Overview. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 01:05, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The timeline part of the plot overview could probably do with being made into a separate article since it is well beyond critical mass. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 21:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Suicidal Vermouth

Transcribing this here from a talk page because it concerns the article.

About Vermouth's suicidal things, I put the citation needed there as a request for quotes or actions of hers that indicated suicidal intent. I was hoping you could find some for the references. In the mean time, I put it back with an invisible note pending quotes/examples in the reference. The reason I am bothering is I can think of a few lines of hers that are depressing, like "My life has represents a series of misfortunes" and "no angel has ever smiled upon me", but I cannot think of any that indicate desire for self harm, so I am questioning validity of the statement that she has shown suicidal intent. Depressing for sure though. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The inclination is "almost suicidal," as in these lines themselves are a matter of perspective; they can be read that way, but they can also be read as something different. Which way is a matter of perspective and, given the more depressing thoughts, there's plenty of merit to the idea of suicidal as is the idea of a different freedom. That's why I left it listed as "almost suicidal" as opposed to outright "suicidal" and removed the sitation; I can quote a thousand different depressing lines from Vermouth and the perspective of suicidal can be argued in almost all of them. The validity would vary, but the possibility is real, be it in Vermouth or anyone in such a state. Example, I can argue Vermouth cheering on Conan's attempt to take down the Organization as suicidal; treason is punished with murder in the Organization. However, that can just as easily be read as a desire for freedom. The bigger inclination is she always kills her characters off. Sharon Vineyard I can understand, since she was popular enough to require such a problem, but even the serial killer to draw out and kill Shuichi. People disappear, some of whom want to disappear, it's sad but true (and for in canon examples we have Numabuchi and the number of almost suicides disguised as murders). And running with the assumption concerning her, apparently, nobody parents, that would be three deaths that really didn't have to happen (although they also pivot on the idea they were all simply characters and not people like the Araides). It's cleaner for her past with murder, but not necessary. Further, deaths leave evidence no matter what you do, some disappearences don't; it's seems smarter and more Organization like to not kill a fictional character under such free circumstances. While this is all speculation, this is reason to believe Vermouth has a fascination with killing her characters, killing pieces of herself. If you can submit this in some cleaner way, or would rather argue it, I welcome you to it either way. Yes, this isn't really quotes as opposed to actions, but I couldn't think of a clean and simple way to rewrite the article with this in mind. User:Wildcardmma

If you are acknowledging that her lines aren't suicidal, but instead the suicidal-ness is matter of opinion, then simply depressing by itself is enough. The same point gets made but leaves matters of interpretation out. Also, I undid some of the changes. Specifically, the one year ago is important because that is the transition from Sharon Vineyard to Chris Vineyard and thus the time frame that Vermouth would have taken APTX if she did so. Also, it is expressly clear the rest of the Black Organization doesn't know about the shrinking effects of APTX and I added a note with the explanation in the article.

Finally, the point of the following line isn't clear. "Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even need to be such a fluke that she regained her youth with it." It sounds like you are saying that because she can disguise her age, she actually de-aged or stopped aging. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 19:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Depressing" alone doesn't grant a look into her well enough; there are varying degrees of depression. "Almost suicidal" gives that perspective. The "suicidal" demonstrates the depth of the depression, while the "almost" leaves it to be made as a perspective; the whole thing is meant to read that Vermouth has said severely depressing things, things that people initiate a suicide watch for, as opposed to mildly depressing, the kind most people ignore unless someone gets dramatic. You can't accomplish such a feat with only "depressing." Even "severely depressing" doesn't cut it, since some people see depressing as black and white; it is or it isn't. There needs to be something more to grant better definition. If you have something better, then by all means post it, or take down the citation.

Further, the one year transition is irrelevant because of my last point. The last sentence was meant to illuminate the fact that we can't actually determine when exactly she regained her youth. Her disguising talents allow her to fake such a feat, so a time limit stating when she began to look young without a disguise grants a narrowed perspective that may ultimately be wrong. The whole paragraph was about APTX 4869, I thought it was logical that "it" was referring to the drug; edit that if you want, but honestly I think it's fine as is. You can add that Chris Vineyard appeared one year ago, but you can't actually say with any certainty that's when she regained her youth for real. Posting as such is posting your interpretation of the facts.

Finally, Haibara had said that one rat shrank and that she didn't report it to the Boss. However, her father also happened to be working on such a drug, Pisco's words. She said she wouldn't continue her father's work, but we know neither when she said that nor if the Organization tricked her into continuing. This is what's called an open experiment; instead of having subjects who are kept in certain conditions, they experiment with things off the street, the varying conditions of such subjects allow them to establish things that can interact with the drug and alter its destined effect. Drug companies do this, though usually when there's more certainty that they're not lethal, and people make a killing off them. Shinichi was clearly a test of the drug, both Gin's words and Haibara's presence in his house prove this. Exactly what they were testing is unknown, since we haven't heard from the Boss on this matter. While the Organization doesn't reportedly know there was a success with Haibara t the helm, this is nothing to say that they weren't testing for such a feat, and it also doesn't mean that the drug suddenly stopped being worked on. Yes, Haibara was important to the research, but losing the important scientist has never stopped scientists and companies from continuing before. Once you again, to allow such a comment to remain up is argumentative and a matter of perspective. Which is it: are you not allowing any perspectives and just the facts, or are you allowing these and their counters up? You can't keep only one interpretation up and then take down any that disagree with it just because we don't have the time to word it perfectly and you lack either the time or patience to research, change your perspective to see if it fits, and edit it to make more sense yourself. I don't have the time to carefully word my sentences, so I need someone to edit me. I thank you for these posts since they're letting me help you edit these, but don't be hypocritical.

You make a good point on when Vermouth would have taken the drug. My reason for specifically specifying one year ago, the transition between Sharon and Chris, is because it is the time window most people have speculated she took APTX 4869 (if in fact she did). I think leaving out the one year ago is fine as well.

Your claim that several of Vermouth's quotes show a suicidal nature is entirely your opinion, and really should not be included in the article unless you provide a reference for it. That she has said depressing things is undebatable, but trying to say those things indicate suicidal tendencies has moved too far into the realm of personal interpretation. Vermouth hasn't shown any suicidal aspiration, she willingly helped rescue herself in the New York case when she could have not grabbed the railing and allowed herself to fall. She has rescued herself from other situations where her safety was in jeopardy (shipping yards in Vermouth arc showdown). Not all depressed people are suicidal. If she is suicidal, then please provide clear evidence from the manga indicating that she would like to end her life.

What I said previously about leaving it out is that you can make the same point without saying anything that is a matter of opinion, "However, given that Vermouth has said depressing things over the course of the series, both as a role she plays and as herself, it is possible she took the drug hoping to die, but was made younger like Haibara".

Regarding the last bit about the drug, while the intended purpose is unknown (see APTX 4869 and the discussion about intended purpose), the Organization is currently using employing the incomplete version only as a poison. They are not trying to experiment on people on the street to shrink them (or whatever APTX is intended to do), they are trying to kill them with it. The Org took great pains to ensure the people it was used on were dead, evidenced when they sent Shiho out to investigate Shinichi's case twice to confirm his death. (V18-9 pg 6) If Gin knew it failed to work some of the time, he would have never left Shinichi alone while it acted, and would have gone looking for him after his body disappeared if that was the case. Also, the boss, who has been stated to be cautious to a fault, would, if he knew about the risk, not let his subordinates use APTX 4869 without letting them know there was a chance it would leave people alive because if someone escaped, they could talk to the police or someone else and leak the secret of the Black Organization's existance. Here are multiple manga references indicating that APTX is currently exclusively being used as a poison.

• "We'll use this, the new poison the Organization developed. You can't find any signs of poison on the body with this stuff..." (V1-1 pg 37)
• "If I reported your condition to the Organization, it's very likely you would have been terminated before I could do something useful." Haibara, explaining that Kudo would have been killed by the Organization anyway even though he was an "interesting specimen." If the Org was field testing, they would try to capture Kudo alive. Shiho was still project manager when use on humans began, so she would know what the Org's reaction towards people who didn't die would be. (V18-9 pg 7)
• "I thought that since I was going to get killed anyways, I would take the APTX 4869 which I secretly held. To my luck, the drug that I took thinking it would kill me shrunk by body..." - Haibara telling Conan she planed to commit suicide with APTX thinking it would kill her .(V18-9 pg 8)
• "How could I understand a person who created a poison to kill people?!..."It can't be helped. It is not like it was my intention in the first place to create a poison." The conversation here pretty unambiguously relays that the current state of APTX 4869 is a murder weapon. (V18-9 pg 9)
• "Anyway, our superior has ordered us to kill him before he rats us out. Don't screw up, Pisco! If there is any complication, you can use the 'experimental drug' [APTX 4869]" - Gin telling Pisco he has the go ahead to use the drug for an assassination - a situation where it would be unacceptable if the drug failed to be lethal because the boss ordered him killed. (V24-7 pg 17)

All the points I have made so far I can and have backed with references and solid logical arguments. I have no problem with including the alternate theory that Vermouth may have taken APTX 4869 to kill herself and wound up getting younger because it is reasonably plausible (although I disagree with it). That said, it needs to be held to the same standard as the other theory; there needs to be a reference for unambiguously suicidal things Vermouth has said. The problem could also be solved if the sentence was stated the following way, leaving out the suicidal bit: "However, given that Vermouth has said depressing things over the course of the series, both as a role she plays and as herself, it is possible she took the drug hoping to die, but was made younger like Haibara".

Also, please rephrase that final sentence. (Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even need to be such a fluke that she regained her youth with it.) It is grammatically awkward, and it isn't clear what meaning is. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

APTX's status as a lethal poison and how much Vermouth knows

I rewrote the first section slightly. Much of it is the same, but here are the changes I made

1. I put additional emphasis on clarifying on when Vermouth found out APTX is not always lethal to acknowledge to possibility she could have taken the drug after she found out about Haibara and Conan. It is worthwhile to note though that Jodie, knowing about Vermouth's ability to disguise, still asked her why she doesn't age (before Shuu reveals it's her natural face). Basically, Jodie has reason to think Vermouth's aging is weird even knowing she can disguise it.
2. In the reference for knowing about the lethal effects, I removed "However, our information on the drug is limited until the end Haibara's involvement with the Organization." This is not true, information about the protocols for use of APTX were revealed during the Pisco assassination when Gin gave the okay for use in a time critical assassination where failure could not be tolerated. While Shiho can not know if any changes were made to APTX 4869 which affected it's action after she left, that isn't relevant to the point; the time frame we care about is before Shiho left - when Vermouth would have taken APTX (assuming she did)
3. I emphasized that APTX is being used as a murder weapon. Because this was a point of contention before with user Wildcardmma, I backed it up a metric ton of manga references and explanation. Keeping that in mind, it would only be proper to dispute it with similarly strong manga references and explanation. e.g. don't delete unless you provide sources.

Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:21, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I stand by what i said for "probably" as well as some of my own words. And as I said in my new section, I need someone to help me out a while my internet is crap. If you're not going to make the changes you requested and I want while I'm not in a position to do so, then just take them down.

Second, I have several complaints with these edits.

"Before Vermouth discovered Haibara and Conan"

If the mystery of what deages her is an unknown, then we shouldn't assume she would assume APTX 4869 made them younger.User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

Yes she would assume APTX probably had something to do with it, but that isn't relevant. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

"I removed 'However, our information on the drug is limited until the end Haibara's involvement with the Organization.' This is not true, information about the protocols for use of APTX were revealed during the Pisco assassination when Gin gave the okay for use in a time critical assassination where failure could not be tolerated. While Shiho can not know if any changes were made to APTX 4869 which affected it's action after she left, that isn't relevant to the point; the time frame we care about is before Shiho left - when Vermouth would have taken APTX (assuming she did) "

While I can understand why you took this out, the point should still be made. And the point was more about APTX 4869's nonlethal effect; any progress on that effect is limited until Ai's departure. As for Pisco, we know he he got the same kind that made Ai and Conan, but we also have no way of knowing if there were any advancements to the drug and that, if that were the case, he got an old one. User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

Fair enough, but we don't know if any advancements had been made. Nowhere in the manga has it talked about that. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Confusing

Quoted section put in spoiler boxes for space saving.

  Show spoilers »

However, given that Vermouth has said depressing, almost suicidal things over the course of the series, both as a role she plays and as herself, it is possible she took the drug hoping to die, but was made younger (like Haibara did). Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even be such a fluke that she regained her youth with APTX 4869. However, it is more than likely the work of a relatively common substance or a mixture of relatively common substances. She wouldn't have almost instantly believed Conan Edogawa was Shinichi Kudo and Ai Haibara was Shiho Miyano without some reason to believe so, but Jodie not understanding the connection between Shiho and Haibara indicates Vermouth had no physical evidence beyond their looks supporting such an idea. And while she was disguised as Araide, she had very little interaction with Haibara by the time she made her move, and had very little interaction with Shinichi and next to no interactions with Conan by the time she made her conclusion on him. Therefore, she had little to no psychological evidence (like what Ran repeatedly uses to deduce Conan is Shinichi) supporting such an idea. Having so little of either type of evidence indicates she had reason to believe such an outcome was possible for the masses. And (though this is mere speculation) this is further supported by Akai's conclusion that Haibara is Shiho, a conclusion he made after no direct interactions with her (only simple moments in passing and an observation he didn't carry out himself, no conversations) and is apparently based on her appearance, that she knows of the Organization, that she knows the Miyanos are connected to it, and that her parents are connected to the Miyanos.

There are a few problems with this section. The first is that it is extremely confusing; it doesn't make clear and concise points.

I flagged the following lines with a citation needed

• "However, it is more than likely the work of a relatively common substance or a mixture of relatively common substances." No one has mentioned how complicated the formula is. Additionally as a counter-proof, Ai has mentioned some, not all of the ingredients that are in APTX: telomerase, a component which "increases the reproductive potential of cells", and a component that induces apoptosis. (V24-10 pg 6) Although these are not the only components, these alone are far simple. The majority of enzymes are not easy to make or must be acquired at high cost. Enzymes made in house involve genetically manipulating some organism to express the protein of interest at very high levels, and purifying it in a manner so the protein remains stable (many proteins degrade easily, enzymes, with a few exceptions, are notorious for this) while keeping the levels of any contaminant proteins or substances used in the purification that could interfere with downstream experiments low. And this is just a single enzyme. Who knows what the other components are?
• "Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even be such a fluke that she regained her youth with APTX 4869.[ref]Even if Haibara was critical to its research, scientists have never been the type to stop just because they lose something, so APTX 4869 may have finally had a reported successful deaging, following some changes to the formula of course.[/ref]" - If my interpretation is correct, you are saying that in Haibara's absence, scientists may have worked on APTX to the point where it de-aged Vermouth; however, you don't offer any proof Organization scientists actually improved APTX in Haibara's absence. My point here is that I could come up with several similarly unsupported possibilities why Vermouth doesn't de-age (like maybe she is an immortal tracing back the original legend of Pandora who opened the box). Without any evidence that APTX 4869 has been improved in the interim, why is this theory any better than the myth example I just gave?
  

Worse, I can provide a counterexample, if the Organization refined APTX to the point where it worked on Vermouth, or anyone else for that matter, they would know how Shiho escaped the locked room and would start hunting for a child. So far, the Org has shown no suspicion of children. Gin himself discounted the idea when he stopped searching lockers for the person who tried to trap Vodka "Hmph. What am I thinking? An adult could never fit in there."(V38-1 pg 14)

The following line is ignoring major details.

• "She wouldn't have almost instantly believed Conan Edogawa was Shinichi Kudo and Ai Haibara was Shiho Miyano without some reason to believe so, but Jodie not understanding the connection between Shiho and Haibara indicates Vermouth had no physical evidence beyond their looks supporting such an idea." This is ignoring a huge point, Conan himself states that "If she [Vermouth], knows my mum, then she has probably seen pictures of when I was young in an album or something, and there will be no reason for her not to have seen through me." (42-10 pg 5) Secondly, Sherry was in the Organization since childhood, and they know her childhood face (Pisco case), Vermouth has been in the Organization for at least 20 years when she killed Jodie's father. (chapter 433) Vermouth was an agent when Sherry was a child and would know her face, especially since it is likely Vermouth has a connection with the Miyanos (V42-10 pg 6), and she and Sherry and know each other (Ai specifically reacts to Vermouth very strongly).
  

For the issue of when Vermouth found out about Haibara and Conan, consider what she said in Gin's car when the Pisco case was over: "I plan to relax in Japan for a while. I have something unsettling on my mind too." (24-11 pg 17) That is pretty decent evidence she saw Conan and Haibara in the party and realized who they were. You can also look at it from another angle. Vermouth targeted Dr. Araide, the Teitan elementary and high nurse, for impersonation so she could get close to Conan and Haibara. She must have found out sometime before impersonating Dr. Araide. So when did she start disguising as Dr. Araide? At the earliest, Ran reported that Araide had already accepted the position of play director at the beginning of "Mistaken Detectives". It is also plausible Vermouth disguised as Araide prior to Desperate Revival. Jodie's reference pictures hidden behind her mirror include a photograph of Dr. Araide taken at the school play indicating that Araide was under investigation then. There are also copies of Vermouth's photographs, meaning Dr. Aradie's office had been raided by the FBI and thus Vermouth was in disguise at the time. The mixed layering of the photos suggests they were acquired at around the same time. At the very latest, Vermouth was already in disguise when Jodie's introduction occured because Jodie had already raided Araide's office and seen the pictures tacked to Vermouth's dartboard.

This is incorrect

• [ref]Chapter 423, Agasa mentioned learning about the Organization through Prof. Miyano's old house and friend as well as learning of Haibara's parents...[/ref] Agasa never learned about the Organization beforehand, he only learned after following Shinichi's investigation. He met Atushi and Elena Miyano at a science conference long before he met Shiho (V39-6 pg 6), but Agasa didn't know the Miyanos had children until he took in Shiho. Agasa asked a professor friend who also knew the Miyanos about them, and the professor friend had a friend, Souhei Dejima, who was a childhood friend of the Miyanos. (V44-10 pg 8),

Finally, just in case you did not know this, the way wikis work is "anything that requires but lacks a source may be removed" (from Wikipedia's policy page). While I don't intend to remove anything that is needing citations because you and any other editors stopping by would like time to look for sources, please understand that it is your responsibility, not mine, to come up with adequate sources, or someone else could come along later and delete your lines. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 01:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Your problems with "However, it is more than likely the work of a relatively common substance or a mixture of relatively common substances."

As I stated elsewhere, Vermouth believes such an outcome is possible. She wouldn't have the idea Conan and Ai were shrunken unless she had reason to believe this was something others could do. The key point was making that it's a substance, not something biological and exclusive to Vermouth. Also, since we still don't know if APTX 4869 is what's making her young, it can be played to the opposite extreme. It doesn't necessarily have to be such a complexed and expensive forumla to make such a result. Therefore, while my wording may have been poor, the point stands. User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

The problem is APTX does contain something biological: enzymes, specifically telomerase. It can be a complex and expensive formula, I even pointed out why: enzymes are complicated to manufacture in lab and expensive to buy unless they are common (telomerase is not). I do agree that the wording is poor, because I still don't understand what point you are trying to make. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

And, as I said and the opening sentence of the speculation page suggests, it doesn't even have to be APTX 4869. It's the only substance we know of it APTX 4869, but that doesn't mean it's the only one possible. And despite me saying out loud, "The key point was making that it's a substance, NOT SOMETHING biological and EXCLUSIVE TO VERMOUTH," you couldn't figure out what this meant? Congratulations, this is now officially a biased website. User:113.192.1.99 04:03, 24 May 2011

I think the problem here is that what you think you said and what I think you said are not matching up. First off, you didn't make it clear you were talking about something other than APTX. In the previous sentence you said "it may not even be such a fluke that she regained her youth with APTX 4869" which makes it sound like you are saying that the theory is about Vermouth taking APTX to regain her youth. It isn't clear that you changed gears to talking about something else here.

I agree that whatever is responsible for Vermouth's aging strangeness may not be APTX. The problem I am still having is that you are still saying it is "NOT SOMETHING biological". When you say "not biological", I read that as containing inorganic compounds only: no enzymes and nothing derived from biological material. There is no reason why whatever Vermouth took couldn't contain biological material. After all, APTX contains enzymes. The other problem is "exclusive to Vermouth" does not have a clear and easy to understand meaning. Does it mean "not containing bits of Vermouth?", "not made specifically for Vermouth", "would work on other people besides Vermouth", or something else? Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 02:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Your problems with "Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even be such a fluke that she regained her youth with APTX 4869.[ref]Even if Haibara was critical to its research, scientists have never been the type to stop just because they lose something, so APTX 4869 may have finally had a reported successful deaging, following some changes to the formula of course.[/ref]"

This is not an unsupported possibility. As I stated, scientists have never been ones to stop and lose to time, and the same can be said of the Organization as a whole. This is a logical circumstance that has some merit to it, and Aoyama has been doing the same himself with a cure. Despite not having any of her original work, Ai continues to work on an antidote. If she can work on an antidote, they can work on the effect as well. User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

It's plausible the remaining scientists could be working on APTX, but there is a world of difference between working on it and perfecting it. That's where the problem lies; find a manga based source that shows the scientists perfected APTX in Haibara's absence. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:22, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

So, you reworded the sentence to say the Organization as a whole knows of such an effect (which has no base real or speculatory), but you're not willing to go with a point of refining in which the Organization and its scientists behave like the Organization and scientists? As you said, if you can't disprove it, it can in a wiki. You can't set double standards to just let the stuff you like fly. User:113.192.1.99 04:03, 24 May 2011

I assume you are responding to the change I described in a different section where I said "the Black Organization only knew about APTX 4869's lethal effects". I see no harm in specifying that only the known members of the Organization think APTX is just a poison, as described in the refs. Maybe Sherry had lab-mates who knew about the one different mouse result, but unfortunately labmates have never been shown in the manga canon. As for your other point, even though we have no manga canon evidence the research is continuing on APTX project, I think it is a believable assumption to make that the Organization would attempt to find a replacement for Sherry and continue working on APTX. I don't have a problem with that. The part where I have taken issue is assuming that these replacements have suddenly perfected or even changed APTX to the point where it has a decent chance of de-aging. It would lead to a contradiction: high level people in the Organization know what APTX can do, but somehow can't figure out how Sherry managed to escape. Even if Vermouth took it in secret, someone is bound to notice Vermouth shaved off 30 or so years all of a sudden. The Org knows Vermouth's true face at the least - Gin would notice, he has had sex with her before. (Conan Drill) Gin was the one who picked her up after the Ghost Ship case when her blood smeared true face was on full display. Gin would know what the cuts meant as Akai Shuuichi did, and I think he would notice that a former lover of his dropped 30 years in the interim. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 02:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

The added counter.

Completely illogical. As Ai has said and you have repeatedly proven, the Organization only knew of it as a lethal poison by the time Ai left. Just because they now perfected the forumla doesn't mean old formulas that had no reported successes suddenly work and Sherry could have escaped.User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

You don't have any proof they perfected or even improved the formula at all. That's the problem here. Nowhere in the manga does it discuss this. That's why I flagged it. Also the counter makes perfect sense. If APTX started working and people deaged, then the BO could guess that Sherry smuggled in some of her preparation which deaged her. All the evidence left in the room (handcuffs that are still locked, laundry/trash chute too small for an adult) all fits. Knowing that, they would start looking for a kid. They haven't, so it stands to reason that APTX still doesn't shrink people except very rarely and the scientists still haven't perfected it. There is also the additional evidence of Gin specifically discounting that an enemy of his could be a child in the locker room scene. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Restrict your counter to the points of the counter. I get it, I can't prove what the Organization is doing, however, that has nothing to do with the counter. As I said, if the Organization has no way of knowing the prior formulas could deage, what reason do they have to believe Sherry could have escaped using it? We the fans will know it's a refining, but the Organization will view it as a reconstruction. Since they were unaware that the prior formula could deage someone, they think the new formula, in whatever way its different, was the magical spark, and they'll work around it. They'll either take out some of Sherry's ingredients or add new ones, and they'll continue believing this was what made Sherry's work explode. When it comes to chemistry, one ingredient can be the difference between success and failure. For examples, cake without eggs or soda without water. If the Organization changed one thing before their first test (which they more than likely would have given the lack of successes), then the secret of her escape is gone. It's simple chemistry. User:113.192.1.99 04:03, 24 May 2011

I did restrict my points to the counter, and yes the Organization does have one potential way of knowing that prior formulas could work, they realize the evidence in Shiho's locked room is consistent with the idea that Shiho suddenly became a lot smaller, aka de-aged. Then the question is how Shiho de-aged, the answer is obvious, APTX or some other weird drug. Considering that Sherry was working on APTX, APTX then becomes the most likely "suspect". The reason why the Org hasn't figured out how Sherry escaped is because the idea of adults turning into children is simply too out there to even be considered a rational theory at this point. Once the Org realizes it can happen, they will logically look back and wonder if this older version of the drug could have also done the same thing, albeit a lot less frequently. Basically, I think your idea the Org will look at some hypothetical working new drug as a "reconstruction" while forgetting all about the old one is a short-sided viewpoint. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 03:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

First, no, your counter made several references to things besides this user's counter. Most of your point acts off the assumption they perfected the forumla, not off the points of the counter itself. Perfect the formula was expressed successfully (to some degree anyway) as a hypothetical extreme scenario to examplify why the secret would be lost. It was not the counter itself. Second, Pisco said the Organization (namely, Ai's father) was researching de-aging, so the idea that they didn't suspect it stands as a point of no successes and/or a hault to the research, not a point of "too out there to even be considered a rational theory." Third, that is the crux of the counter. It started with her father, it made its way to her, why would it stop now? If the formula as Sherry had it doesn't have any successes as a de-aging drug, then it's considered a dud and ruled out. Also, there's the problem of Gin seeing Sherry as an adult on the roof of the hotel in Pisco's case. This creates four possibilities: 1. Sherry never shrunk in the first place and is walking around as an adult, 2. Sherry shrunk, but the effect was only short term and she's walking around as an adult, 3. Sherry shrunk, the effect is reversible, the effect is permanent if unreversed, Sherry reversed herself by that night, and Sherry is walking around as an adult, and 4. Sherry shrunk, the effect is reversible, the effect is permanent if unreversed, and Sherry reversed herself by that night, but the reversal is only short term and Sherry is walking around as a child. Four possibilities, three point to Sherry being an adult. Without either Vermouth or Pisco to add that Sherry later shrunk again (and Pisco's word would have been much more valuable since he would have mentioned that Sherry didn't introduce anything into her system before shrinking, something Vermouth can't do yet), these are the only possibilities. They can suspect such an idea, but unless they can figure out that the formula, as Sherry had it, can do that, figure out the "trigger" that causes it to work only on certain subjects, and establish whether or not Sherry had this "trigger," this formula can't be a suspect. This isn't to say that this is impossible, but due to the fact that there are only three known successful experiments among the dozens if not hundreds of rat and human subjects, this is an extremely high hurdle to clear.

If I made references to things besides this person's counter, it was because had to to make a point. I was not assuming a perfect formula, the original IP was. Regarding the second point, that's what Conan and Ai have been saying all along. And as I told you before, while Sherry leaving won't stop the research, just because someone new eventually comes in doesn't mean there will be an improvement in the drug within any reasonable timeframe. The Miyanos started 30 years ago and still haven't managed to perfect it in that amount of time. Furthermore, I can say from personal experience that if you lose your lead researcher, there will be lot of time (half a year to sometimes years) before the people who replace them get the projects back up to full speed and go through all the notes left behind. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 06:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for showing you cared enough to not even read my points. In the first place, the IP (and I even pointed this out for you) used it as an EXTREME HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE. You dealt mostly with this example alone. This is not the person's counter and ignores the majority of it. Second, the rest doesn't even remotely have anything to do with I wrote. Ai and Conan have NEVER talked about the Organization considering the idea of a person shrinking, which is what my second point was all about; proving that this idea wasn't too out there for the Organization to consider (you'd have known that if you had read it). Third, you actually presented proof positive that the Organization as a whole doesn't have much clue on how Ai's hiding. At present, they're assuming the things I posted in my list and trying to figure out which one is the truth. This, therefore, stands to reason along side the lack of references to APTX 4869 since then as the fact that the Organization is suspecting such an idea but is unaware of which way to look.

Your problems with "She wouldn't have almost instantly believed Conan Edogawa was Shinichi Kudo and Ai Haibara was Shiho Miyano without some reason to believe so, but Jodie not understanding the connection between Shiho and Haibara indicates Vermouth had no physical evidence beyond their looks supporting such an idea."

First of all, all the points made in response to this have to do with psychological evidence. Physical evidence refers to things like dental records, appearance, DNA, fingerprints, hair, things that go through a forensics lab and put into computers. Conan's words (the one's you quoted) indicate that the only physical evidence was appearance and the rest was psychological. The listed points have nothing to do with physical evidence and actually further the idea there was none beyond appearance for both of them. User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

My point was that Vermouth knew what Conan and Shiho looked like when they were kids. In Conan's case, it was family albums Yukiko shared. In Ai's case, it was the fact the Org knows what she looks like as a kid. You listed "appearance" as physical evidence. That was all Vermouth needed to figure them out, so I really don't see where you are trying to go with this. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The point I'm making is that's hardly any evidence at all. Conan didn't say, "She'd recognize me," he said, "She'd see through me." They're a world of difference. Recognize means she'd simply see the similarities in appearance (like Ran, Eisuke, and the music teacher did), see through means she knows it's more than simple appearance. Besides that, your point was Vermouth said something was troubling her and that was most likely that she saw Conan and Haibara. If all she needed was appearance, then why was it only troubling her? That's my point, she (just like Ran and Eisuke) needs more than just appearance to see through him. Appearance was listed as physical evidence for just that, and the first sentence is to explain simply that Vermouth would need reason to believe the idea (it does not brush upon anything she has yet), the follow up concerning Jodie is to establish what her physical evidence is. User:113.192.1.99 04:03, 24 May 2011

See revision suggestion. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 03:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Your problem with [ref]Chapter 423, Agasa mentioned learning about the Organization through Prof. Miyano's old house and friend as well as learning of Haibara's parents...[/ref]

Seriously, when I give you source, take the time to read it before you say it's wrong. You yourself actually talked about my source and couldn't even tell this was a gramatical problem. It's supposed to say that Agasa mentioned he tracked down the Miyano's home and they (he, Conan, and Ai) were going to investigate the Miyanos, the Organization, and Ai's parents (we're acting off the assumption that all people who were listening to bugs weren't aware Ai's parents are the Miyanos). Just sub "learning" with "attempting to learn" and the problem you were too lazy to look into yourself is gone. User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

So you are saying you made a grammatical error that completely changes the meaning of the sentence and it's my fault that I could not psychically read your mind through the internet to see what you really meant? Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I supplied a chapter number for that very reason; it's still right there: 423. If you had bothered to look it up, you wouldn't have had to open your mouth. If you didn't know which one it was because you have only volumes to go off of, then simply following the list of chapters on Wikipedia and the contents of my sentence (namely, Miyano's old house) would be enough to help anyone else find the chapter in question. When I give you a chapter, look it up to verify my sentence before you post a problem with it. If you had done that, the point of my sentence would have been made clear as day. User:113.192.1.99 04:03, 24 May 2011

Ultimately, it's your responsibility to write correctly. When a doctor mistakenly writes a prescription for 300 mg of a drug instead of 300 μg and the pharmacist catches it, it's the doctor's error, not the pharmacist's fault for doing the fact checking. Readers are like patients, while the sources are there in case the reader wants to do his own investigation, they are not expected to. It is the writer's job (eg the doctor) to make sure what was written was correct in the first place. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 03:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

It was written correctly the first time. "Learning about" can mean "learning about for the first time as well as "learning more about." Both of these acts can be summed up as "learning about." It becomes the writers responsibility to make such a thing clear, and that's why this person places so much emphasis on their source; the source itself is what reveals which of these two meanings is the correct one. Just because you could only see one meaning doesn't mean it was written incorrectly in the first place. To be fair, the writer shouldn't have left the source to accomplish this all important task, but that doesn't change your own narrowed perception of this sentence. Also, the entire point of the source is to verify that what they post is real, not fan-fiction; aiding readers is simply a happy side effect. With the dual meaning in mind and the source supplied, there's no reason for any of this bull shit that came after the user's reply to your complaint.

If the grammar was better, there wouldn't have been a problem. It's also the user's responsibility to make sure they state things unambiguously so there aren't questions in the first place. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 06:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The grammar was fine as it stood, the problem was with you and the clarification. I threw you some slack since the IP should have presented more than just the source to clarify, but if you don't even want to be courtesy over the course of this and read what someone writes, then that's fine. This, therefore, is all you. The IP presented the correct data, you were just too narrow minded in your reading of it. The fact is that anyone else would have used logic when they read it to establish which was the correct reference; since Ai's father hadn't been mentioned until well after Agasa first learned about the Organization, logically this was learning more about the Organization.

Finally, don't accuse me of not giving sources when I give you plenty. Just because you lacked the time to verify them and verify that I expressed myself properly doesn't mean they don't exist. User talk:113.192.1.99 06:20, 21 May 2011

I did go through your "sources". You don't seem to understand what sources are. They are manga based quotes that support your point. I didn't see you citing manga anywhere. That's why I took issue with them.

And as I just said, I supplied several. You were too lazy to verify them. Take issue with yourself first. I've jumped through hoops and explained my points a dozen different ways, even saying them outright with a highlight of some kind, and you refuse to acknowledge any of them, even when I site the manga. If you had gone through my sources, you wouldn't have near as many problems as you do.

Honestly, take it all down. Undo my edits. If my edits offend you so much you're not even going to show them the most basic of courtesies, then get rid of them. In fact, let's just rename the whole thing, "Detective Conan according to Chekhov MacGuffin." That way you don't ever have to cite your sources or pretend sources from people you don't like don't exist ever again and you can have your dictatorship in its full splendor. Good-bye asshole. User:113.192.1.99 04:03, 24 May 2011

I'm not the one calling people assholes and cursing on their user page. I am trying to point out things in need of improvement and errors that need to be fixed, hoping you would try to correct them, source them, or rewrite them. I changed multiple things in the section I originally wrote in response to your comments and provided multiple sources when you challenged statements. You have not extended me the same courtesy of seriously considering anything I have said to be worth changing your part of the section. I didn't edit your paragraph's content except to add citation tags and invisible notes so you could have the opportunity to change, write, and express your ideas in your way, not mine. You decided not to cooperate. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 03:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect on so many levels. You are just as guilty of extending this person no courtesy. You've both shown an extremely narrow mind when it comes to everything mentioned on this talk page. the only difference is you can be imagined with your nose held up in the air and essentially trolling this person while the IP speaks his mind and isn't afraid of letting you know exactly how stuck up you act. Both of you seriously need to consider changes to your personalities. The fact that this person discussed these with you, instead of out right eliminating your tags and such, demonstrates the ability to cooperate. What made this impossible is you completely missing the point, be it due to the person's poor wording or your own narrow view of the matter. This person addressed each and every one of your points. You extended no such courtesy. And, in my opinion based upon what was seen here, this person went the extra mile of not making you feel foolish and left out my little note on the Agasa reference.

Sorry you feel this way. That said, if I disagree with something as written and have the references to support it, then I am going to disagree until the text is in line with the references. That is how wikis work. If you think I did a sub-par job on dealing with this user, go talk to one of the other moderators or Maurice about it. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 06:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

So wikis work where one user takes their narrow perception to a multi-possibility problem and cast it as the only possibility? Users don't have to read the stuff they edit, use logic to know what it means, verify or even acknowledge another user's source(s), or extend even the slightest courtesy to another person? So why are you making a big deal out of the IP calling you an asshole? You just said wikis are places for assholes, so you should feel proud to have someone call you that. Just because you have references that support, but don't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, a possibility doesn't mean another possibility with just as much source material and logical reasoning behind it is wrong, but all you've been shown doing here is casting your own take on Vermouth as the only possible take. Logical circumstances that differ from yours have been presented, and you show no respect for them and instantly say they are wrong. You fail to realize exactly what proof is since I had to ask you, again, to prove the exact same things I said were unproven in the first place and ignored most of the unproving I did. I think I'll take you up on that offer and go to a moderator, since I do believe this entire page is proof you are going to be a serious problem to ongoing debates and revisions for this page.

Only my own take? There are other possibilities listed in the speculation that I don't agree with, like the APTX theory and the suicide theory. They were included because they were reasonable possibilities, as is the one that Vermouth took something other than APTX. Also included for all of them are their weaknesses which you helped make clear. As long as it's reasonable and intelligent, the speculation should be included. Note by reasonable an intelligent, I mean there are some references to support it, like Vermouth saying depressing things. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:18, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

They've had to be beaten into you, and you refused to read posts in the process. It took an eternity of useless arguments to illuminate the fact that no one knows when Vermouth started having this effect (a point which was made almost instantly by a user), that there are logical reasons she may have taken APTX 4869 when it was just poison (which you repeatedly removed yourself), and that she may have made her own breakthroughs on understanding the drug as Ai had it (which again was made almost instantly). Further, I presented a logical reasoning for the ideas I presented and the one you brought up, but you still insisted on not adding those in. Maurice himself said that permitted speculations are fine as long as they do not sidestep, "inferring, deducing, logic, and/or the realm of reasonableness." With your one theory, and my two theories, I presented deducing and logic within the realm of reasonableness. And yet, you refused to put them back up or challenge them.

Rewrite

Here is an attempted rewrite of the second part seeing as prior discussion hasn't resulted in changes. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:07, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Vermouth probably didn't use APTX 4869 to achieve her youthfulness unless she was willing to face near certain death trying it. Before Vermouth discovered Haibara and Conan, the known members of the Black Organization (besides Sherry) only knew about APTX 4869's lethal effects, and it was considered deadly enough that Sherry's superiors employed it as an untraceable murder weapon. However, given that Vermouth has said depressing things over the course of the series, it is possible she took APTX 4869 hoping to die, but she de-aged instead, similar to Haibara's situation. Vermouth could have also gambled on taking APTX 4869 after she recognized the deaged Shiho and Shinichi and then discovered that APTX 4869 was the common connection between them and likely cause of their conditions. However, both the suicide scenario (if it occurred later than one or two years ago) and the gambling scenario fail to explain why no one in the Black Org has questioned why Vermouth has become younger, especially after Gin saw her true face following the Haunted Ship case, and then connected that with APTX 4869 use and Sherry's mysterious escape from the handcuffs and locked room.

Vermouth's de-aging/non-aging may be a result of something other than APTX 4869 that has not been mentioned yet.

---

On this rewrite, I've changed the starting sentences to clear up a few things. Since we don't really know when Vermouth first found Ai and Conan (speculating it was at the party has merit, but it's unproven at present), this is in need of changing since the last possible report on the drug (Gin's phone call with Pisco) and the confirmation of her finding one of them (the busjacking case) have an extremely large gap of time between them. We also have no way of knowing exactly which drug Pisco was given. Gin said only, "the drug" during their call, he didn't actually name it. APTX 4869 is the likely candidate, but this is an unconfirmed notion at present. Having "the drug" be APTX 4896 is also a little contradictory; Pisco acknowledged both her father worked to make such an effect possible and that she had finally made it a reality, but he showed little concern at any point over the drug in his possession and letting the Organization know such a thing was possible. This could mean he didn't know what drug Sherry was working on, but it could also mean he didn't have APTX 4869 in his possession. With this in mind, I've changed this to "By the time Sherry left the Organization." This moment marks our last confirmed report of APTX 4869, the Pisco case is a speculatory reference at present, and I've removed that part of the reference. Also, since the initial setence was written under the assumption she would have had to take it before appearing as Chris Vineyard and the paragraph itself now presents ideas that contradict such a sentence, I've rewritten that entirely. The basics are still there, but I believe it the message itself is more accurate and less presumptuous. Feel free to edit this as needed.

Since the removal of certain details and a new line of thinking was presented when someone reminded this page of Vermouth's disguising talents, I felt this should be noted in this section. I also wanted to bring up the theory of Vermouth not needing to introduce a substance to her body to retain her youthful appearance, so I reworded the end a little to make it easier to clarify this detail and its difference.

There's also one thing I wanted to ask and verify before I added it. Has there been any reference by any members of the Organization that hints they even know Sharon Vineyard and Chris Vineyard are the same person? If there hasn't, then I think it's worth noting that the Organization might not even be aware that Vermouth is not aging.

Alright, here are the changes I made.

I readded the bit about Vermouth facing near certain death. That is an important point to make because it clarifies what APTX 4869 would likely do to her when she took it and Vermouth's conscious decision to face death. While I know you have brought up that the state of APTX 4869 development is unknown after the Pisco case when we last know it was used as a poison, in response to that I said if the Organization refined APTX to the point where it worked on Vermouth, or anyone else for that matter, they would know how Shiho escaped the locked room and would start hunting for a child. So far, the Org has shown no suspicion of children. Gin himself discounted the idea when he stopped searching lockers for the person who tried to trap Vodka "Hmph. What am I thinking? An adult could never fit in there."(V38-1 pg 14) In other words, there is no evidence of any significant improvement in APTX 4869 in Shiho's absence.

Keeping that in mind, I readded the part of the source related to the Pisco case. It is a statement of fact and it provides insight that APTX 4869 was still being used as a poison up until Vermouth's intro case. "The experimental drug" is commonly understood to mean APTX 4869 - Haibara and Conan both agreed that was what it referred to. And later, Gin refers to the drug Pisco has by APTX 4869's other known nickname, the "experimental detective." (24-08 pg4) If you want to debate me on this, I will take it to the forum where more people can discuss it.

I also replaced the "By the time Sherry left the Organization" with "Before Vermouth discovered Haibara and Conan. The reason why I prefer the older wording is because it does not make any assumptions about when Vermouth first realized Conan and Ai were Shinichi and Shiho, except that she found out after the Haibara escaped. (The line does not imply Vermouth found out at the party.) Additionally, it makes it clear that Vermouth was the first non-Sherry BO member to discover the de-aging effects.

But the fact of the matter remains (and this is why I took it out in the first place, and even said as much) is we don't know when Vermouth first found them with certainty. Therefore, we have no way of knowing if the Organization had any breakthroughs by the time she found them. This whole wording acts off too many assumptions. Make it clear that Vermouth is probably the second to learn its effect, but also make the point of our latest confirmation and the Organization's understanding undeniable: by the time Pisco confronted Ai (previously overlooked).

But we have a time range - from the party to when she disguises as Araide. This has bounds. I really don't see what's wrong with "Before Vermouth discovered Haibara and Conan" in the first place. It's flexible enough to account for various theories as to when Vermouth found out exactly. Why try to pin it down when the timing is uncertain? Also, I ignored Pisco because he died without telling anyone; I should have said Vermouth is the first surviving non-Sherry BO member. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

For the third time: this creates an uncertain point. I'd much rather there be a finite point at which we know with 100% certainty this was a confirmed report. I brought up Pisco because he demonstrates that the Organization doesn't know with certainty that such an effect is possible and that the most they can do is speculate. Furthermore, we have no way of knowing if Vermouth had found them before or after she disguised herself as Araide. Due to her closeness to Sherry (Ai's reactions to her name and scent demonstrate close, personal knowledge of Vermouth), she herself may have the insider information that Pisco had and established the possibility. Posing as Araide may have simply been the infiltration of the closest elementary school to begin a systematic investigation, much like the one they used to find Rena (except this one can only be carried out by one person). And remember: it's not closest to the hotel, it's closest to where Gin parked his car; they came across the Porsche on their way home from school. The point I'm making is: we don't know when she found them and we don't know if she knew they shrunk before or after she found them. As such, the statement is a poor presentation.

As I have said repeatedly there is nothing wrong about leaving it uncertain. It is better that way because it makes it clear the important point in time is when Vermouth found out, whenever that is. Also, you are wrong about the Araide thing, but it's not relevant to the de-aging so I'm not going to into it. Also, can you properly indent and sign your paragraphs? I'm tired of doing it for you and it makes the page very sloppy otherwise.Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I took out the line "As such, taking APTX 4869 was a ticket to the afterlife in her mind." because it was redundant considering the next sentence said the same thing - "it is possible Vermouth took APTX 4869 hoping to commit suicide"

I added in this "certain ticket" line as a replacement for the "face certain death." I thought it better to talk about the drugs effects first, then bring up the conclusion. It reads just as well now, so no big deal. Just saying.

I took out the bits about the other drug being "an artificially synthesized compound that is not APTX 4869 ", "as well as something her body produces naturally." This is unsupported speculation and opinion. I know for a definite fact (which is why I didn't flag it) that nowhere in the Detective Conan manga has anyone talked about what other potential deaging substances might be made of. It could be Pandora's tears, it could be an RNA injection, it could be Zhāng's famous Baijiu, or it could be radiation from the Hiroshima bomb which gave Vermouth superpowers, or Vermouth may have been born with the condition. Trying to describe what this substance is without facts is wrong.

Lastly I reworded the final sentence a bit to cut down on the wordiness. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I thought this entire part of the article is speculation. Unsupported or not, if it's a theory that deals with Vermouth's youthful appearance, it deserves to go up. Otherwise, we may as well do away with the whole speculation section. Facts were absent from that last part before I added her disguising talents. I think pointing out that it could be naturally occuring, inside or outside her body, or artificially synthesized is worth mentioning, since it points out the broad spectrum of possibilities at present with so many unknowns. Even if it's only one sentence, a speculation is worth noting. If you really want only supported speculation, then this article shouldn't present any doubt it's a result of APTX 4869, since it's the only possible explanation with a leg to stand on right now. We both know how foolish that sounds, so why exactly should it apply to such an idea. Finally, you want base, you've got it. Aoyama's combined the canons to make Pandora worthy, the Organization was working on this effect but has not yet stated APTX 4869 is their only project on it, and since it's only Vermouth who has shown such an effect (since APTX 4869's confirmed subjects all shrank, it's effect is still debatable) and hasn't been shown doing drugs of any kind it's logical to believe she's the only one who has it and it's not an outside substance. Logical arguments to present my submission as worthwhile. However, if don't want such things up, then I'll take the whole speculation aspect down. Supported speculations that leave questions and logical-but-unsupported speculations that answer everything are equally valid; you can't allow only one or the other. Since you don't want one, we'll do without both.

Sorry, but there are base requirements that speculations have to meet first, otherwise the wiki article would be bogged down by zillions of unsupported possibilities. As part of the requirements that speculations be reasonable and intelligent, speculation needs to have some referenced logic behind it to support it. For this reason, the boss page doesn't go into speculation about individual characters because there is very little evidence and it would devolve into a sprawling mass of ideas considering how many manor and minor have been suspected as being the boss for various reasons. Sera Masumi on the other hand includes a speculation section about her being Akai's sister because there are various manga reference-able ideas to support it, like the eyes. Also, do not unilaterally delete sections because you don't like the contents. It's unproductive and tendentious. If you don't like the speculation sections, go to wiki section of the forums and seek community support for removing them. Then they'll be removed.

Regarding the "naturally occuring, inside or outside her body, or artificially synthesized is worth mentioning". I didn't understand where you were trying to go with that line. I thought you were saying something along the lines of it had to be some easily fabricated biological substance like the first IP described. If you are trying to say something along the lines of, "the nature and composition of this hypothetical non-APTX substance is completely unknown," that's a valid point because it's the truth - nothing in the manga has hinted to what the hypothetical substance might be. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 00:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what it was, but I didn't just say that, I listed possibilities to illustrate the point. These are semi-popular theories with, as I demonstrated, a reasonable logic behind them. I left them as portions of the sentence and didn't make them their own because of how little there is to support such ideas. I'll cave to letting this illustration slide to a point. You can take out other chemicals being synthesized. However, the "naturally occurring, inside or outside her body" point is one I refuse to not let go up. As I demonstrated, with the MK and DC canons combined, Pandora has legitimate reasoning. We have no way of knowing if it's been found, but a substance that could make such a thing possible has been introduced into DC and KID is looking for it in DC. Then, if APTX 4869 is an uncertainty and Pandora and other compounds are too speculatory, then the only explanation left is a bodily function. The former I'll take if you present enough reason, but the latter is something I refuse to budge on since this is the very same methods of speculation presenting both you and Maurice insist on following. If you're going to continue to frown on this going up, then you're just making my case to Maurice for me. And accusing me of deleting the speculation topic twice when the most I've done is the once when you refused to let the certainly legitimate theory remain up.

The problem with the way you said it is that you were trying to limit it to a few things. You are going to have to let the "naturally occurring, inside or outside her body" part go because you have no proof the compound wasn't artistically synthesized to its entirety. None. You are not going to find quotes about it because Gosho has literally never talked about the other compound once in the manga. That's why I have been deleting references to the other compound being "naturally occurring". Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

To address the rest of your response here.

"Since we don't really know when Vermouth first found Ai and Conan (speculating it was at the party has merit, but it's unproven at present), this is in need of changing since the last possible report on the drug (Gin's phone call with Pisco) and the confirmation of her finding one of them (the busjacking case) have an extremely large gap of time between them."

Vermouth was in America prior to the Pisco case, which is when she flew over. Thus she couldn't observe Conan or Ai before then. Rather than fly back, Vermouth says she wants to stay in Japan for a while because she had “something unsettling in her mind”; probably Conan and Haibara whom she recognized as Shinichi and Shiho. We know she disguised as Araide after she found Shiho and Conan in order to get close to them. The exact time Vermouth replaced Araide was left unclear. At the earliest, Ran reported that Araide had already accepted the position of play director at the beginning of "Mistaken Detectives". It is also plausible Vermouth disguised as Araide prior to Desperate Revival. Jodie's reference pictures hidden behind her mirror include a photograph of Dr. Araide taken at the school play indicating that Araide was under investigation then. There are also copies of Vermouth's photographs, meaning Dr. Aradie's office had been raided by the FBI and thus Vermouth was in disguise at the time. The mixed layering of the photos suggests they were acquired at around the same time. At the very latest, Vermouth was already in disguise when Jodie's introduction occured because Jodie had already raided Araide's office and seen the pictures tacked to Vermouth's dartboard. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I was referring mostly to the time between Pisco and the busjacking, bringing up prior chances is a waste of time. Other than that, you just proved my point for me. Since we have no way of knowing with certainty when Vermouth found them, it's better to list a more certain point. I listed Sherry's escape since it was more certain and overlooked Pisco's words. Finally, just because she found them doesn't mean she knew it was them and figured out the hidden effect. This is still a poor representation of the facts. Perhaps a better way would be: "By the end of the Pisco case" or whatever you feel would describe this case the best.

We also have no way of knowing exactly which drug Pisco was given. Gin said only, "the drug" during their call, he didn't actually name it. APTX 4869 is the likely candidate, but this is an unconfirmed notion at present.

"The experimental drug" is commonly understood to mean APTX 4869 - Haibara and Conan both agreed that was what it referred to. And later, Gin refers to the drug Pisco has by APTX 4869's other known nickname, the "experimental detective." (24-08 pg4) If you want to debate me on this, I will take it to the forum where more people can discuss it. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

But just because that's what's "commonly understood to be meant" doesn't mean that's the truth. It was commonly understood the Earth was flat and everything revolved around it and we both know that's wrong. This might be right, but that doesn't change the fact that you have yet to present any proof whatsoever. I also can't find any point in the Pisco case where Gin says, the "experimental detective." I went over the case, and the only place that was mentioned was in the computer Ai hacked. Gin said she'd come after the drug, but he still didn't identify the drug in question; it's more reason to believe it's APTX 4869, but it's still utter speculation. If it's possible it wasn't APTX 4869, then we shouldn't assume it is when we're using this as hard fact.

You probably have a bad translation. It's on pg 4 of volume 24 file 08 in the middle panel. Gin on phone with Pisco, "Yeah... the woman will come. I baited her with the drug to make sure. Of course, it's up to you if you use the 'incomplete detective' or not". Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Supply a link or screenshot and I'll take it. And to be 100% clear, let's try for an original Japanese as opposed to a translation. Supply that and the characters written in text, so that I can copy and paste, and we're all set. Exact translations may be rough, but there's no debate on whether or not such a thing was listed.

That's your job, not mine. I already checked my facts. However I decided to go out of my way and make a screenshot of the two relevant panels. I will take the image down in a few days time, or when you respond whichever is sooner. the two panels Also, if you are using those really bad translations for the purposes of discussion with me, I strongly recommend you use the anime instead or find some re-edits because those older translations get tons of stuff wrong. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Having "the drug" be APTX 4896 is also a little contradictory; Pisco acknowledged both her father worked to make such an effect possible and that she had finally made it a reality, but he showed little concern at any point over the drug in his possession and letting the Organization know such a thing was possible.

Why should he? He isn't going to try to take one. Gin told Pisco to use the stuff he has as a poison. Pisco didn't have any chance to do much of anything either. Conan appeared right away, and then after that Gin came down the chimney. He did try to bargain for life with Gin by saying he knew how to find Sherry, but Gin shot him anyway because Gin probably assumed he was bluffing. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

It's a breakthrough in the medical community and it would prove valuable for the Organization; even if the Organization had no interest in such an effect, knowing that the drug doesn't kill all the time is extremely important. If he's loyal, he'd want to let them know this was something they could do and have to look out for. Pointing out finding Sherry and a major breakthrough for the Organization are valuable things he could use to bargain for his life, as you pointed out. If he skipped such an important note in his plea, then he probably has a good reason.

He was interrupted and distracted, first by trying to complete the boss's orders to kill Sherry, next by Conan, and finally by Gin who was going to kill him. It's not like he had any free time to tell the Organization about anything. He could have told Gin while bargaining for his life, but he didn't and it wouldn't have stopped Gin from killing him. For this reason he took a bargaining tact that he knew where Sherry was and if Gin let him live, he could find her. If Pisco just told Gin flat out Sherry got shrunk, Pisco would have no bargaining chip. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

He doesn't have to say the word "shrink" to communicate such a valuable insight. "APTX 4869 doesn't kill all the time, and when it doesn't it has another effect. If you don't know what the effect is, you can't find Sherry." And as I said before: this sis valuable information that can be used to bargain for his life. He has no way of knowing that Gin is going to kill him no matter what he said, so this is a valuable chip. I never brought up reporting it, only using it as a chip. Had you been reading anything, you would know this.

That would be smart, but unfortunately Pisco wasn't that clever. It doesn't change the fact that Pisco had APTX and knew Haibara was making it. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

This could mean he didn't know what drug Sherry was working on, but it could also mean he didn't have APTX 4869 in his possession.

He knew what project Sherry was working on because he knew Sherry's parents were working on the same project which Shiho had inherited. See his monologue to Shiho right before he was about to shoot her. And Pisco has APTX 4869 which I explained above. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

That proves he knew what the effect they were looking for was. That doesn't prove he knew what her drug was called, which is what my point was all about.

If Pisco was close friends with the parents as he claimed and they told him a lot about the drug in development which he said (V24-11 pg 9), than Pisco would obviously what it was called. He also knew what the effect was because he told Haibara her parents would be proud because she had taken the drug this far where "this far" refers to Haibara shrinking. I wish you would check the manga more carefully before making flawed arguments like this. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Where's your reasoning? Their friends and he knows the effect, therefore, he knows the project's name. Hey, while we're at it: Camel was at the hotel and the hospital and Gin mentioned there was an informant at both places, therefore, Camel's a member of the Organization. It sound stupid, especially after James announced having a run in of some sort with Sera with his slip of the tongue, but that's exactly my point; there was no more solid reasoning than when the IP presented such an idea of a second substance. And once again, you show you did not read my post: right at the beginning I acknowledged it means he knows the effect, but the not the project.

I just don't know what to say. Pisco was an executive agent, like Gin and Vermouth, was close friends with Miynao Atsushi, was told all about the project -enough so that Pisco knows what the goal is-, knew Shiho took over her parents' project, and somehow they fail to mention the name? You are missing the forest for the trees here. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, since the initial setence was written under the assumption she would have had to take it before appearing as Chris Vineyard and the paragraph itself now presents ideas that contradict such a sentence, I've rewritten that entirely. The basics are still there, but I believe it the message itself is more accurate and less presumptuous. Feel free to edit this as needed.

APTX has been a death pill most of the time even after Sharon switched to Chris (I assume you mean <1 year ago), and I have already provided references detailing how we know this. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The point I was making is that because there have been breakthroughs on APTX 4869 (whether the Organization realizes or not) and we don't know when she took it, the fact of the matter is saying that she "probably didn't take it" and opening with such an idea is extremely wrong. Or did you just want the now unsupported speculation to remain standing?

Because there are very good reasons for why she probably would not take it - because it is used as a poison and would likely kill her. I supported all this with references and now there are alternative theories where she might take it anyway, including suicide and gambling. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

So because there are now logical reasons to support why she would have taken the drug, it's still perfectly alright to say "she probably wouldn't have taken the drug"? It contradicts the article itself that way. I'm happy it's not up, but why exactly are you defending it if you didn't put it back up?

Because it is back up, in so many words. "However, at present there are things that contradict such a notion. Vermouth would have faced near certain death if she had used APTX 4869." 23:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

There's also one thing I wanted to ask and verify before I added it. Has there been any reference by any members of the Organization that hints they even know Sharon Vineyard and Chris Vineyard are the same person? If there hasn't, then I think it's worth noting that the Organization might not even be aware that Vermouth is not aging. '

Yes, Gin and Vodka both knew Vermouth lured out Akai Shuuichi in NYC. (42-10) Vermouth was in her Sharon persona at the time. You can even see her clutching the gunshot injury as she calls Yukiko about her "Angel". Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Which was also after Chris had shown up, Sharon even talks about her and teaching her disguise at the start of the case. Yes, we saw that was Sharon clutching which was there to help readers figure out that was Sharon in disguise, but there's still no proof whatsoever over the course of that case that the Organization knew Sharon and Chris were the same person and that is was the Sharon persona who carried out the attempt.

Sure Chris existed, but prior to Sharon's death she never came out in public except for movies and interviews. The silver-haired-serial-killer affair took place during the time when Sharon was Vermouth's dominant persona. Considering that Vermouth has been in the Organization for at least 20 years, had sex with Gin during that time, and doesn't hide her face from the Org in later cases, they'd probably know what she looked like and likely her cover role as well. In any case, there is no evidence suggesting that the Organization doesn't know Vermouth is playing both Sharon and Chris, so it doesn't make sense to assume that either. 23:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

When did the Organization become public? Yes, Sharon was the dominant persona, but that doesn't change the simple fact that Chris had been established in the world and was mentioned hanging with the wrong crowd. And where's the reference that Gin had sex with Sharon? I know the "make some martini" thing, but that was aimed at Chris. We have no information on Sharon's time in the Organization other than her assassination of Jodie's parents, and even now we can't connect that to the Organization; Jodie said her father had a file on Sharon, not the Organization. It may very well have been on the Organization, but without the file we'll never know anything more than the fact that he was investigating Sharon Vineyard, who may have started a more dastardly life before joining the Organization. We have no way of knowing when Vermouth joined the Organization, what name she joined them under, and whether or not they were aware of her double identity.

If you read carefully, I never said the Organization was public. I was talking about Chris not coming out in public except for movies and TV interviews. Also you can't trust Sharon's words about "Chris hanging out with the wrong crowd". Sharon is Vermouth as well and is lying because she is Chris. The reference about Gin having sex with Vermouth comes from Conan Drill, an official guidebook for the series, the relevant page of which is posted with translations in the forum on page 7 of the stickied Gin and Sherry thread in general discussion. Jodie has Vermouth's fingerprints from twenty years ago which she matched to both Sharon and Chris, so she's connected. Also it makes a lot more sense to assume Sharon was in the Organization twenty years ago which is part of why the FBI is chasing the Black Organization now, than it is to assume she isn't. There isn't any proof that Vermouth was independent back then. If I may make a comparison, there isn't any hard proof that Kaito Kid in the DC manga is actually Kuroba Kaito, because he was never named anywhere in the canonical manga, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to assume he isn't. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Non aging section

An IP edit brought to my attention that the speculation about why Vermouth isn't aging should be more clearly marked, so I added a sub-section to explicitly mark it as speculation. If there are any objections to the labeling, free free to revert, but please discuss your reasons here. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Why don't we do like on the other character pages to avoid controversy and ruffling each other's feathers and move all speculations to the "Fan Theories" section that goes underneath the "Character Popularity" section? See Kaitou Kid for example. --Skyechan 21:27, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Most pages have don't have a specific-location-on-a-page defined fan theories section for speculation, they just have the speculation section wherever it is appropriate labelled something like speculation, like under identity or purpose. Kaito Kid is kind of unusual in that regard. Having a fan theories section may be a good way to go about it for some pages, including this one, but it still wouldn't change the requirement for reasonable and intelligent speculation backed by evidence in the manga. While potentially worthwhile, I'm not sure moving the speculation section to another part of the page would fix the underlying problem. So far, it seems most of the arguments here have centered around does the manga say this or does it not - like is APTX lethal, does the Org know that it's lethal, is it possible the Org made a better version of the drug after Sherry left, does the Org know Vermouth was in disguise as Sharon and Chris, did Pisco actually have APTX with him or was it some other drug, etc. Whether they were in a fan theory section or not, there would still be problems if someone tried to claim Pisco's drug wasn't APTX for example. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Maurice's template

I am implementing Maurice's table idea. Let's try to keep things short and to the point.

Point being made	IP 113.192.1.99	IP 109.235.49.143	Chekhov	Consensus
The BO is currently using APTX for...			An untraceable assassination weapon. They are not "field testing" for age alteration effects.
Does the greater BO (not-dead-people, not-Vermouth, not-Sherry) know about APTX shrinking people even after the Pisco party?			No.
When did Vermouth/the BO find out it was shrinking people?			Whenever Vermouth found out Haibara was Sherry and Conan was Shinichi which may be at the party or a little after that. I don't see why we should try to clarify because there are multiple theories we'd have to cover if we did. Pisco died before telling anyone so he doesn't really count. The rest of the BO doesn't know.
Do the BO know Vermouth was Sharon?			Yes, although I am having trouble finding references to nail the issue down cleanly. She has been in the BO for twenty years, and engaged in several activities which occurred while Sharon was the dominant persona (Chris came out into public only after Sharon died. Before that she restricted herself to movies and interviews) like luring out Akai in NYC (42-10). Gin and Vodka knew about this activity. Also Vermouth has no issue showing her face as Chris to Gin and Vodka which occurred after the Pisco case. Sometime before then Vermouth was in a sexual relationship with Gin. (Conan Drill)
Does the BO know Vermouth stopped aging/deaged?			This answer needs two parts. Yes, if Vermouth was suddenly deaged. Probably, if Vermouth is not aging, but there isn't affirmative proof. For the deaging side of things, even if Vermouth took some drug (including APTX) in secret, someone is bound to notice Vermouth shaved off 30 or so years all of a sudden. The Org knows Vermouth's true face. At the least - Gin would notice, he has had sex with her before. (Conan Drill) Gin was the one who picked her up after the Ghost Ship case when her blood smeared true face was on full display. Gin would know what the cuts meant as Akai Shuuichi did, and I think he would notice that a former lover of his dropped 30 years in the interim. For the non-aging part, probably is the best I can do. Vermouth has been in the BO for twenty years and has no problems about showing her true face to other agents while on missions (Org vs. FBI, clash of red and black, red shirts). Anyone who has been in the BO long enough and had seen her true face enough would notice after time. Pisco would qualify because we know he has been in the Org for a while. It isn't clear how long the rest of the agents have been in so it's hard to say for them.
Are the scientists still working on APTX even after Sherry left? If so, did they improve APTX enough so that if Vermouth took it, she would have a decent chance of deaging?			Maybe, but I don't think it particularly matters right now. The important thing is the remaining scientists haven't improved the formula significantly because the greater BO (ignoring Vermouth, Sherry, and dead people) still don't know about APTX occasionally causing deaging. If they haven't made improvements that would affect Vermouth, I don't think it really makes sense to mention them on Vermouth's page.
If Vermouth took APTX 4869, does she have a high probability of dying, and, if so, does she know she has/had a high probability of dying?			Yes and Yes*. The first yes is because APTX, even before the Org started using it as an assassination weapon, presumably killed or poisoned all but one mouse in testing (that one mouse shrunk). The second yes is because I doubt Vermouth would take APTX by accident, and if she did, someone would have noticed she shrunk, yet the Org doesn't know about APTX shrinking people. We can include the Vermouth took APTX by accident theory if needed, but the weakness of "why has no one noticed Vermouth got younger" needs to also be stated.
What can we say about the not-APTX drug Vermouth might have taken in case she is not-aging?			Everything about the nature and composition of this hypothetical non-APTX substance is completely unknown. There are no definite clues in the manga about what the nature of another substance might be.
When is the last known timepoint APTX was used or referenced by the Org?			Pisco's case where Pisco had it as a backup should the chandelier drop fail. Gin refers to the drug Pisco has by APTX 4869's other known nickname, the "experimental detective." (pg 4 of volume 24 file 08 in the middle panel). After that, we can still assume that the remaining Org scientists haven't improved the formula significantly because the greater BO (ignoring Vermouth, Sherry, and dead people) still don't know about APTX occasionally causing deaging.
Does Pisco know Haibara was working on APTX 4869?			Yes. In V24 F11 pg 9, Pisco mentioned three things. He was "very close" to Miyano Atsushi and Elena, he "heard a lot about the drug while it was still in development", and that Shiho's parents would be proud of her for managing to developing the drug to that point - where "that point" refers to Shiho deaging in front of his eyes. From this it is clear Pisco knows both that Shiho took over the project from her parents, and he knows the true purpose of APTX because he was impressed how far she had taken it meaning he knows what the end goal should be. If he was close to the parents and heard a lot about the drug, logically he would know the name of the project, especially because he was BO, and an executive agent at that (Conan Drill 239) on or nearly on the same level and Vermouth and Gin who are also executive agents. (Conan drill 239)
Fill in issue here.
etc...	...	...	...	...