Talk:Karasuma Group

Black Organization gadgets

Moved to Talk:Gadgets#Black Organization Gadgets by Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 05:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Ranking

Gosho has recently said in the Booklet that "all members of the organization with code names are supposed to be at the same level", even though Gin often comes across as the most leader-like. So should we change the article's contents to reflect this (since it directly contradicts with other not-yet-confirmed-to-be-canon-sources, like Conan Drill etc.)? --- BLACK DEMON | Reply 20:13, 24 August 2013 (PDT)

Yeah I wondered about that because that in turn contradicts with Conan drill which did discuss ranking between members. Practically, they do seem to be ranked. Amuro had to ask Vermouth for permission to see Akai's death material. There seems to be more evidence for ranking than not, but I think it would be wise to put in a note/small discussion paragraph/something about the interview. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 20:39, 24 August 2013 (PDT)

Vermouth's motives

I saw recently that Vermouth's real will is that Conan destroy the Black Organization. What is the source of that? Which volume and which file? --186.29.122.117 21:48, 24 February 2015 (CET)

I meant, where can I find that information?

Masaaki Okakura and NOC status and division

There seems to be some misunderstandings about what a NOC is. The Japanese scriptwriter for the Raven Chaser seems to have gotten it wrong thinking "NOC" was a cooler word for "spy". "NOC" has a very specific meaning. Paraphrasing Wikipedia, a NOC, Non-official cover, is an operative who assumes a covert role in an organization without ties to the government for which they work. This contrasts with official cover, where an agent assumes a position at an otherwise benign department of their government, such as the diplomatic service. Both are covert agents, but the key difference is that an official cover has diplomatic immunity; the host government can kick them out but can't jail and execute them without violating the rules-of-diplomaticking-with-other-countries. The Black Organization is not a government entity, it has no official presence, and it can't offer diplomatic immunity. Thus, the BO can't have NOCs, because the term just doesn't apply. To use a terrible analogy, you wouldn't call an squid tentacle a thumb, because thumbs only exist on hands.

Kir and Akai were NOCs because they work(ed) for the US government in Japan covertly and illegally. Amuro is a spy in the Organization, but not a NOC because he is operating within the same state he serves (which gives him legality). The other FBI characters operating in Japan probably should be considered NOCs because they are operating illegally in Japan on behalf of the United States and misrepresenting their purpose for being in Japan. The only thing against the FBI getting the NOC label is that they aren't fully covert; they aren't lying about who they are and aren't getting evicted even though some of the Japanese government knows they are spying around.

Moving on, the second issue is what division of the BO Masaaki Okarura is in. Conan described the agent as "a member of [the Black Organization] working undercover as a civilian." I could not find reference to a line which implied Masaaki and Irish were in the same division. There are multiple divisions in the Black Organization where undercover operatives work, not just Reconnaissance. Fundraising is one. It isn't possible to say with reasonable certainty that Masaaki is in the recon division because we don't know what he actually did. Did he spy on the parliament, or was he involved in bribing it, siphoning funds to Black Organization research projects, or interfering with the political system? Those other options could imply Masaaki is in something different than pure Recon. Either way, we don't have the information to justify his placement, unlike Irish who worked closely with Vermouth and used disguise to infiltrate a police meeting which are pretty clear BO Recon division tactics. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 20:35, 12 April 2015 (CEST)

Poll on Black Organization page

There has been a poll running on the main forum, and I realized I forgot to comment about it here. I'm going to let it run at least an extra week so anyone reading this can get their votes in. The issue is how this page should mix manga canon versus extended non-manga canon information and characters. It addresses issues of segregating manga canon versus non-manga canon info and characters, including the possibility of purging all non-manga canon info from the main BO page. Please have a look and take a vote.

• The poll

Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:31, 9 September 2015 (CEST)

The poll seems to have run its course. The results are much stronger than I thought in favor wiping out all the non-manga canon stuff from the main page, but it's not a clear majority. I don't think that is wise either. There is a clear preference for separating manga from non-manga. I think my plan at this point to keep the current organization of the page, but add extended canon sections. Thoughts?

• Characters and divisions now have an extended canon section
• Rank has non-canon agents italicized
• Modus operandi has an invisible note saying manga canon info only

Order of the BO member names on the infobox

The most recent two edits on this page were just reorganizing the order of the BO member names in the side bar. We need to stop this. So there needs to be a discussion. Should they be in order by appearance or by ranking inside the BO? Reorganizing the list more than once does not contribute to anything.--Jimmy-kud0-tv2 (talk) 08:23, 9 April 2016 (CEST)

I'm for a hybrid system that weights for popularity, taking cues from how they are presented by the official materials. (Boss, Gin, Vodka, Vermouth, Chianti, Korn, Kir, Bourbon, Rum) is how I'd start and then move on to ex and dead agents starting with Sherry I guess. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 11:21, 9 April 2016 (CEST)

Hint

The organization could have a business with the HO Holdings or the Kabuki Theater in episode 804-805. Indeed, examining Eiji Kaneko's chip, Conan and Haibara are surprised to see someone. Conan asks her if she has seen him before, and Haibara responds that she doesn't know him, but she'll look it up and Conan thanks her. Judging her behavior, he could be a man in black, who had a secret meeting with someone of Hosoo Trading or Kabuki discovered by the cameraman. Movie 26 will be about the organization, so there could be an explanation about it. --185.93.230.10 13:01, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to ruin the fun for you anon, but episode 804-805 is an anime original. Anime originals and movies usually have little to no impact on the actual main plot. On rare occasions characters and character traits do get added to the manga, but mostly are auxiliary things like new police officers. Movies are sometimes used to tease upcoming things, but usually they have already been teased in some way in the manga first. --Jimmy-kud0-tv2 (talk) 04:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

You're right, Jimmy, but those special episodes were in honor of 20th anniversary of the anime, then it could be different from other anime original episodes. --185.93.230.10 12:17, 16 April 2022 (UTC)