Difference between revisions of "User:Chekhov MacGuffin/Latest case"

Revision as of 21:18, 6 August 2016

The full context regarding Haibara's discussion of her parent's death and another drug different from the APTX/Silver Bullet her parents made

A hypothetical drug or chemical of some sort that predates Atsushi, Elena, and Shiho's work for the Black Organization.

Evidence for existence

50 year old project

"Kudo-kun? You would probably never even dream that you are already part of a project the Black Organization has been working on already for half a century."

—Haibara's thoughts on Shinichi's shrunken predicament^[1]

APTX 4869 is the only known intersection between Shinichi and the Black Organization, meaning that Shinichi's de-aging made him relevant to the Black Organization's project. That project is, according to Haibara, over 50 years old. Atsushi and Elena Miyano only joined the Black Organization some 30 years ago at most when Atsushi left his parents' house to take up research.^[2] Even if one assumes their Silver Bullet project was created immediately, that means there are at least 20 years unaccounted for prior to the Miyanos joining where the Black Organization had a project that APTX 4869 could be considered a piece of.

Another drug

Haibara: And the fact that [Kohji Haneda's] name was on the list of victims who were given APTX 4869, I'd say there's a good chance that Asaka was one of the members of the Black Organization!
Conan: I don't get it. Kohji Haneda was killed 17 years ago. Then why is his name under mine in the list?
Haibara: Perhaps the person who compiled the list wasn't going by chronological order. Maybe it was sorted by blood type or something.
Conan: Wait a minute, so the drug that I was forced to take existed 17 years ago? And you are its creator? How old are you really?
Haibara: How rude. I've told you before. I am 18 now. Perhaps it was an early prototype of a drug made by my parents. The information for the drug that I created was mostly taken from the burnt remains of the data that my parents left behind.
Conan: Burnt remains? What do you mean?
Haibara: Well, the research lab that my parents worked in caught fire, and along with them, most of their research materials were burnt. I heard from the other members of the Organization that it was an accident.
Well, what I was really ordered to make was another drug, however...

—Manga Volume 89, File 11 (948), Pages 3-4: "The Clenched Scissors"

-Check, does Haibara's quote imply that she didn't work on the other drug the Black Organization wanted? Japanese vs English on implications.

References

v • d • e APTX 4869
Developers	Atsushi Miyano • Elena Miyano • Shiho Miyano
Victims	Shinichi Kudo • Kohji Haneda • Amanda Hughes • Mary Sera • Shiho Miyano
Antidotes	Prototype antidote • Baijiu
Related Articles	Silver Bullet • Victim list • Case from 17 years ago • Black Organization

[1] Manga Volume 19, File 9 (189), Page 6: The Endangered Ball; Episodes 130-131: The Stadium Indiscriminate Threatening Case

[f423-2] Volume 41, File 423: "A Mystery Left by a Visitor"

[1]

[2]

Difference between revisions of "User:Chekhov MacGuffin/Latest case"

Revision as of 21:18, 6 August 2016

Contents

Evidence for existence

50 year old project

Another drug

References

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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 <!--This page is a personal page, please ask on the talk page before editing-->
-Sandbox currently being used for peripheral vision analysis. I am currently researching to figure out what observations are high signal to noise for blind-in-one-eye chars - in short, quantifiable differences in depiction compared to full sight chars.
+[[Image:948p3-4 other drug convo.jpg|thumb|right|x500px|The full context regarding Haibara's discussion of her parent's death and another drug different from the APTX/Silver Bullet her parents made]]
-== Summary and assumptions ==
+A hypothetical drug or chemical of some sort that predates Atsushi, Elena, and Shiho's work for the Black Organization.
-This sheet is meant to document the depictions and behaviors of characters who are known to be blinded on one side so that other blinded characters can be identified, even if they are hiding that fact.
-In real life, people with a nonfunctional eye will lack corresponding peripheral vision. Thus they will be required to turn their whole face in order to see things on their blinded side, and may miss observations if they are out of sight. Blinded people also have problems with depth perception. Some of these limitations may be carried over to the manga if Gosho has done appropriate research.
-== General observations ==
+== Evidence for existence ==
-* Kansuke turns his head slightly further than other characters when looking with his bad side. Because it is rather subtle, the comparison is the least biased if compared within a single panel. To determine if a character is genuinely overturning, use the rule of thumb: "Once is chance, twice is coincidence, the third time is a pattern."
+=== 50 year old project ===
-<div>[[File:Kansuke turns 1.jpg|x250px]][[File:Kansuke turns 2.jpg]][[File:Kansuke turns 3.jpg]]</div>
+{{quote|"Kudo-kun? You would probably never even dream that you are already part of a project the Black Organization has been working on already for half a century."|Haibara's thoughts on Shinichi's shrunken predicament<ref>Manga [[Volume 19#File_189_-_The_Endangered_Ball|Volume 19, File 9 (189), Page 6: The Endangered Ball]]; [[The Stadium Indiscriminate Threatening Case|Episodes 130-131: The Stadium Indiscriminate Threatening Case]]</ref>}}
-* At least two Gosho characters with blinded eyes wear glasses that are always dark over the bad eye. (Hyoue Kuroda, MK's Goudzu)
+[[APTX 4869]] is the only known intersection between Shinichi and the Black Organization, meaning that Shinichi's de-aging made him relevant to the Black Organization's project. That project is, according to Haibara, over 50 years old. Atsushi and Elena Miyano only joined the Black Organization some 30 years ago at most when Atsushi left his parents' house to take up research.<ref name=f423>[[Volume_41#File_423_-_A_Mystery_Left_by_a_Visitor|Volume 41, File 423: "A Mystery Left by a Visitor"]]</ref> Even if one assumes their [[Silver Bullet (drug)|Silver Bullet]] project was created immediately, that means there are at least 20 years unaccounted for prior to the Miyanos joining where the Black Organization had a project that APTX 4869 could be considered a piece of.
-[[File:Goudzu MK manga.jpg|x200px]][[File:Hyoue Kuroda manga.jpg|x200px]]
-* Characters with bad eyes don't overfavor turning towards their good eye side to see people who are mostly behind them - they will turn with whichever side is closer, even if it is their bad one. (Kansuke)
+=== Another drug ===
-* Characters with one eye still do certain quirky Gosho things like speak with their eye(s) shut for a moment and then open them for the dramatic punchline. (Kansuke)
+{{quote|'''Haibara:''' And the fact that <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Kohji Haneda]]'s] name was on the [[List of Black Organization related characters#APTX 4869_Victims|list of victims]] who were given [[APTX  4869]], I'd say there's a good chance that [[Asaka]] was one of the members of the Black Organization!<br>
-* For normal vision characters like Conan and Koumei, Gosho occasionally switches them from looking over their left shoulders to over their right shoulders or vice versa when the perspective of a scene switches between panels. This may be to keep their face visible for artistic purposes since it doesn't really matter which side they are using.<!-- Two times Conan does it in 953 -->
+'''Conan:''' I don't get it. Kohji Haneda was killed 17 years ago. Then why is his name under mine in the list?<br>
+'''Haibara:''' Perhaps the person who compiled the list wasn't going by chronological order. Maybe it was sorted by blood type or something.<br>
+'''Conan:''' Wait a minute, so the drug that I was forced to take existed 17 years ago? And you are its creator? How old are you really?<br>
+'''Haibara:''' How rude. I've told you before. I am 18 now. Perhaps it was an early prototype of a drug made by my parents. The information for the drug that I created was mostly taken from the burnt remains of the data that my parents left behind.<br>
+'''Conan:''' Burnt remains? What do you mean?<br>
+'''Haibara:''' Well, the research lab that my parents worked in caught fire, and along with them, most of their research materials were burnt. I heard from the other members of the Organization that it was an accident.<br>
+''Well, what I was really ordered to make was another drug, however...<!-- SPIMER EXACT TRANS FOR THIS ONE LINE-->''|Manga [[Volume 89]], File 11 (948), Pages 3-4: "The Clenched Scissors"}}
-==Panel evaluation method description==
+-Check, does Haibara's quote imply that she didn't work on the other drug the Black Organization wanted? Japanese vs English on implications.
-The purpose of gathering these data is to evaluate if there any quantifiable differences between full-sighted and part-sighted character depiction. The directions are relative to the character's own perspective. Between 11 and 1 o'clock is assumed to be straight for the purposes of this evaluation.
+<!-->
+=== Vermouth's aging issue ===
-#Head straight, eyes straight (•_•)
+Vermouth's lack of aging presents another conundrum. As explained by Jodie and Akai in their showdown with Vermouth, matching fingerprints mean she is definitely the same woman as the one who killed [[Jodie Starling]]'s father twenty years ago, yet her face hasn't changed. She also admitted to pretending to age.<ref>"It's actually quite tough you know - pretending that it's not just your face, but everything about you that's aging too." (823 p2)</ref> That means at some point Vermouth was exposed to some event or drug which halted her aging, de-aged her, or both. The question is when this would have happened, and this would shed light on what compound affected her.
-#Head straight, eyes right (<_<)
-#Head straight, eyes left (>_>)
-#Head turned right, eyes straight  ('_' )
-#Head turned right, eyes right (<_< )
-#Head turned right, eyes left (•_• )
-#Head turned left, eyes straight ( '_')
-#Head turned left, eyes left ( >_>)
-#Head turned left, eyes right ( •_•)
-#Other (One eye closed. Something odd.)
-#Total number clear panels with char looking or interacting.
-== Yamato Kansuke ==
+At minimum, Vermouth would have had to stop aging sometime before she created Chris because there would be no reason for Chris to exist otherwise. That means Vermouth stopped aging at least 10-29 years ago, which is definitely older than Shiho's five year-old APTX project.
-Yamato is blinded in his left eye. While Yamaoto may give aside glances at first when his name is called, he tends to turn his head fully toward the speaker when being spoken to or holding a longer conversation (Yamato vs Koumei). Koumei in contrast seems to be more comfortable speaking without turning his head fully if the speaker is still in his peripheral vision. Yamato holds conversations with people in his blindspot, so long as the conversation doesn't require him to see the other.
-<!-- 683-686 913-917 -->
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! Case
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| 913-917
-| 63
-| 8
-| 6
-| 2
-| 6
-| 0
-| 12
-| 14
-| 0
-| 2
-| 113
-|-
-| 683-686
-| 101
-| 18
-| 11
-| 4
-| 7
-| 0
-| 5
-| 31
-| 0
-| 1
-| 178
-|-
-| Totals
-| 164
-| 26
-| 17
-| 6
-| 13
-| 0
-| 17
-| 45
-| 0
-| 3
-| 291
-|- <!--percentages-->
-| Totals
-| 56.4%
-| 8.9%
-| 5.8%
-| 2.1%
-| 4.5%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.8%
-| 15.5%
-| 0.0%
-| 1.0%
-| 100%
-|}
-=== Some notable moments ===
+Vermouth's aging problem probably also predates the 18 year old Silver Bullet Project as well. Twenty years ago, with the same face she has today, she personally murdered Jodie Starling's father and burned all his files because he knew some vital secret. Also 20 years ago, Vermouth was Toichi's apprentice, learning disguise. While not conclusive, both those activities imply that 20 years ago or earlier she had stopped aging and was acting to protect this secret. Finally, there are the suspicious deaths of her family and husband to consider. Assuming she or the Black Organization killed them in order to hide her non-aging secret, her need for makeup skills, and fake pregnancy/child, that would place the timeframe of her non-aging event at least 30 years before the current timeline, matching when Sharon was 20-30 years old. here is no evidence that Silver Bullet actually was a successful compound. In fact, it appears that it was probably the same project as APTX 4869 (discussed in the Black Organization section above.). It's hard to believe she would intentionally take such a drug.
-Done 683-686, 913-914
-* 685p3 - Didn't notice Koumei had been pulled from the fire because his body was on the bad left side. Conan had to inform him to keep from charging in.
-* 913p6 - Kansuke catches Conan staring at him in the peripheral of his functional eye, turns to look at Conan full forward over the next two panels
-* 913p13 - Kansuke didn't see a body he was looking for in his bad eye's blind spot. He had to turn his head fully 90 degrees to see where Koumei is squatting at his 8 o'clock with the body.
-== Koumei ==
+-->
-Fully sighted control for Kansuke.
+<!--
+[[Kohji Haneda]] was killed by an APTX 4869-like drug 17 years ago. Implies the Miyano parents' APTX drug not working so well.
-<!-- 683-686, 913-917 -->
+== Silver Bullet ==
-{| class="wikitable"
+Why it's not silver Bullet.
-|-
+Evidence suggests that Silver Bullet and APTX 4869 are the same drug. Even if you assume that is not the case, Haibara's thoughts.
-! Case
+Haibara says she "resurrected" the research by gathering notes left behind by her parents.
-! SS (•_•)
+-->
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| 913-917
-| 82
-| 15
-| 15
-| 3
-| 17
-| 0
-| 2
-| 8
-| 0
-| 4
-| 146
-|-
-| 683-686
-| 50
-| 9
-| 13
-| 6
-| 9
-| 0
-| 1
-| 12
-| 0
-| 5
-| 105
-|-
-| Totals
-| 132
-| 24
-| 28
-| 9
-| 26
-| 0
-| 3
-| 20
-| 0
-| 9
-| 251
-|- <!--percentages-->
-| Totals
-| 52.6%
-| 9.6%
-| 11.2%
-| 3.6%
-| 10.4%
-| 0.0%
-| 1.2%
-| 8.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 3.6%
-| 100%
-|}
-== Hyoue Kuroda ==
+== References ==
-Kuroda is blinded in his right eye. Kuroda in his intro case very rarely spoke to anyone with his head turned. He either stood and looked at them directly or he didn't at all. This might be a hint in and of itself. People who don't turn heads could be more suspicious.
+<References/>
-<!-- 913, 914, 915, 916, 917 -->
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! Case
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| 913-917
-| 61
-| 3
-| 3
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 6
-| 1
-| 0
-| 4
-| 78
-|- <!--percentages-->
-| 913-917
-| 78.2%
-| 3.8%
-| 3.8%
-| 0.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 7.7%
-| 1.3%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.1%
-| 100%
-|-
-| 920
-| 4
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 0
-| 4
-|}
-== Rumi ==
-No apparent eye troubles
-{| class="wikitable"
+{{APTX 4869}}
-|-
+[[Category:Theories]]
-! Case
+[[Category:Objects]]
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| 966-968
-| 37
-| 4
-| 12
-| 5
-| 4
-| 0
-| 4
-| 8
-| 0
-| 6
-| 80
-|- <!--percentages-->
-| Total
-| 46.3%
-| 5.0%
-| 15.0%
-| 6.3%
-| 5.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.0%
-| 10.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 7.5%
-| 100%
-|}
-== Goudzu ==
-Minor MK case villain. Presumed to be blind in right eye because of glasses.
-<!-- MK5-1,2 -->
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| 30
-| 1
-| 2
-| 1
-| 2
-| 0
-| 2
-| 2
-| 0
-| 1
-| 41
-|}
-== Sakurako Yonehara ==
-<!-- 781-786, 847-849, 918-920 -->
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! Case
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| Many
-| 138
-| 8
-| 17
-| 12
-| 15
-| 0
-| 12
-| 14
-| 0
-| 8
-| 224
-|- <!--percentages-->
-| Many
-| 61.6%
-| 3.6%
-| 7.6%
-| 5.4%
-| 6.7%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.4%
-| 6.3%
-| 0.0%
-| 3.6%
-| 100%
-|}
-== Chikara Katsumata ==
-== Mary ==
-== Conan ==
-A control case, looking at cases since late Bourbon and the start of the Rum arc.
-<!-- 693 698 702 703 725 726 742 750 754 862 863 932 934 937 938 942 943 948 953 959 -->
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! Case
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| Many
-| 314
-| 34
-| 36
-| 20
-| 50
-| 0
-| 23
-| 53
-| 1
-| 3
-|
-|- <!--percentages-->
-| Many
-| 58.8%
-| 6.4%
-| 6.7%
-| 3.7%
-| 9.4%
-| 0.0%
-| 4.3%
-| 9.9%
-| 0.2%
-| 0.6%
-| 100%
-|}
-== Matsumoto ==
-A control case for bulky geezers.
-== Stacked charts by percentage ==
-Raw percentages
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! Name
-! #Datapoints
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR (<_<)
-! SL (>_>)
-! RS ('_' )
-! RR (<_< )
-! RL (•_• )
-! LS ( '_')
-! LL ( >_>)
-! LR ( •_•)
-! Other
-! Total
-|-
-| Kansuke o_-
-| 291
-| 56.4%
-| 8.9%
-| 5.8%
-| 2.1%
-| 4.5%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.8%
-| 15.5%
-| 0.0%
-| 1.0%
-| 100%
-|-
-| Koumei o_o
-| 251
-| 52.6%
-| 9.6%
-| 11.2%
-| 3.6%
-| 10.4%
-| 0.0%
-| 1.2%
-| 8.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 3.6%
-| 100%
-|-
-| Kuroda -_o
-| 78
-| 78.2%
-| 3.8%
-| 3.8%
-| 0.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 7.7%
-| 1.3%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.1%
-| 100%
-|-
-| Rumi o_o
-| 80
-| 46.3%
-| 5.0%
-| 15.0%
-| 6.3%
-| 5.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.0%
-| 10.0%
-| 0.0%
-| 7.5%
-| 100%
-|-
-| Sakurako
-| 224
-| 61.6%
-| 3.6%
-| 7.6%
-| 5.4%
-| 6.7%
-| 0.0%
-| 5.4%
-| 6.3%
-| 0.0%
-| 3.6%
-| 100%
-|-
-| Conan o_o
-| 534
-| 58.8%
-| 6.4%
-| 6.7%
-| 3.7%
-| 9.4%
-| 0.0%
-| 4.3%
-| 9.9%
-| 0.2%
-| 0.6%
-| 100%
-|}
-Analysis
-{| class="wikitable"
-|-
-! Name
-! #Datapoints
-! #!SS data
-! SS (•_•)
-! SR:RS
-! SL:LS
-! RR:SR
-! LL:SL
-! SX:RX:LX
-! XS:XR:XL
-|-
-| Kansuke o_-
-| 291
-| 127
-| 56.4%
-| 4.3 : 1
-| 1 : 1
-| <span style="color:blue">1 : 2</span>
-| 2.6 : 1
-| 10.9 : 1 : <span style="color:blue">'''3.3'''</span>
-| 4.8 : 1 : 1.6
-|-
-| Koumei o_o
-| 251
-| 119
-| 52.6%
-| 2.6 : 1
-| 9.3 : 1
-| 1.1 : 1
-| 1 : 1.4
-| 8.0 : 1.5 : 1
-| 3.0 : 1 : 1
-|-
-| Kuroda -_o
-| 78
-| <span style="color:red">'''17'''</span>
-| <span style="color:black">'''78.2%'''</span>
-| NaN
-| 1 : 2
-| NaN
-| 1 : 3
-| NaN
-| 22.3 : 1 : 1.3
-|-
-| Rumi o_o
-| 80
-| <span style="color:red">43</span>
-| 46.3%
-| 1 : 1.25
-| 3 : 1
-| 1 : 1
-| 1 : 1.5
-| 5.9 : 1 : 1.3
-| 5.8 : 1 : 2.5
-|-
-| Sakurako o_o
-| 224
-| 86
-| 61.6%
-| 1 : 1.5
-| 1.4 : 1
-| 1.9 : 1
-| 1 : 1.2
-| 6.3 : 1 : 1
-| 7 : 1 : 1.3
-|-
-| Conan o_o
-| 534
-| 220
-| 58.8%
-| 1.7 : 1
-| 1.6 : 1
-| 1.5 : 1
-| 1.5 : 1
-| 5.5 : 1 : 1.1
-| 4.2 : 1 : 1
-|}
-=== Understanding the stats analysis ===
-* #Datapoints: I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in any of the data until they include over 250 points per person and 120 not SS. That's about 9 files worth of data for a keynote character.
-* SS (•_•): The percent of panels in which a character is facing forward. I'm not sure what it means when it is abnormally high. Is it a feature of scary geezers, or could it be used to pinpoint someone who might have an eye out?
-* SR:RS / SL:LS : These two compare the ratio of instances where the character only turns their eyes and their heads remain straight (SR and SL) to the number of head turns to the right or left to look directly at something (RS and LS). A high ratio means the character is favoring more aside glances than headturns for direct looking. One of my assumptions is that characters with an eye out will turn their heads more directly to face someone on their blind slide. Kansuke seems to show this on his bad left, preferring more than other characters to turn his head to look straight at someone.
-* RR:SR / LL:SL : The second pair compares the ratio of the full head and eyes turn (LL and RR) to the eyeturn only (SL and SR). A character with their vision out should be forced to turn more completely on their bad side and therefore uses relatively fewer aside glances on their bad side. Some shifty-eyed characters like Koumei have high ratios.
-* SX:RX:LX : The second from the last looks at raw headturn ratio.
-* XS:XR:XL : The final one looks at raw eyeturn ratios.
-I expect some artistic bias shows up. Gosho seems to prefer drawing characters turning their heads to the left and looking straight rather than turning them to the right and looking straight.