Talk:Vermouth

Page Name

I think this page should be redirected to Vermouth. Sharon Vineyard may not be Vermouth's first disguise and thus not her true name. Sharon Vineyard had a mother who died in a fire on the day of her debut. Vermouth is more general and thus less likely to need changing later. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Plot overview

If anyone want to help with the plot overview for Vermouth, please help format it by case, elaborate, and make it grammatical here: User:Chekhov MacGuffin#Vermouth timeline for Plot Overview. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 01:05, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The timeline part of the plot overview could probably do with being made into a separate article since it is well beyond critical mass. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 21:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Suicidal Vermouth

Transcribing this here from a talk page because it concerns the article.

About Vermouth's suicidal things, I put the citation needed there as a request for quotes or actions of hers that indicated suicidal intent. I was hoping you could find some for the references. In the mean time, I put it back with an invisible note pending quotes/examples in the reference. The reason I am bothering is I can think of a few lines of hers that are depressing, like "My life has represents a series of misfortunes" and "no angel has ever smiled upon me", but I cannot think of any that indicate desire for self harm, so I am questioning validity of the statement that she has shown suicidal intent. Depressing for sure though. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The inclination is "almost suicidal," as in these lines themselves are a matter of perspective; they can be read that way, but they can also be read as something different. Which way is a matter of perspective and, given the more depressing thoughts, there's plenty of merit to the idea of suicidal as is the idea of a different freedom. That's why I left it listed as "almost suicidal" as opposed to outright "suicidal" and removed the sitation; I can quote a thousand different depressing lines from Vermouth and the perspective of suicidal can be argued in almost all of them. The validity would vary, but the possibility is real, be it in Vermouth or anyone in such a state. Example, I can argue Vermouth cheering on Conan's attempt to take down the Organization as suicidal; treason is punished with murder in the Organization. However, that can just as easily be read as a desire for freedom. The bigger inclination is she always kills her characters off. Sharon Vineyard I can understand, since she was popular enough to require such a problem, but even the serial killer to draw out and kill Shuichi. People disappear, some of whom want to disappear, it's sad but true (and for in canon examples we have Numabuchi and the number of almost suicides disguised as murders). And running with the assumption concerning her, apparently, nobody parents, that would be three deaths that really didn't have to happen (although they also pivot on the idea they were all simply characters and not people like the Araides). It's cleaner for her past with murder, but not necessary. Further, deaths leave evidence no matter what you do, some disappearences don't; it's seems smarter and more Organization like to not kill a fictional character under such free circumstances. While this is all speculation, this is reason to believe Vermouth has a fascination with killing her characters, killing pieces of herself. If you can submit this in some cleaner way, or would rather argue it, I welcome you to it either way. Yes, this isn't really quotes as opposed to actions, but I couldn't think of a clean and simple way to rewrite the article with this in mind. User:Wildcardmma

If you are acknowledging that her lines aren't suicidal, but instead the suicidal-ness is matter of opinion, then simply depressing by itself is enough. The same point gets made but leaves matters of interpretation out. Also, I undid some of the changes. Specifically, the one year ago is important because that is the transition from Sharon Vineyard to Chris Vineyard and thus the time frame that Vermouth would have taken APTX if she did so. Also, it is expressly clear the rest of the Black Organization doesn't know about the shrinking effects of APTX and I added a note with the explanation in the article.

Finally, the point of the following line isn't clear. "Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even need to be such a fluke that she regained her youth with it." It sounds like you are saying that because she can disguise her age, she actually de-aged or stopped aging. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 19:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Depressing" alone doesn't grant a look into her well enough; there are varying degrees of depression. "Almost suicidal" gives that perspective. The "suicidal" demonstrates the depth of the depression, while the "almost" leaves it to be made as a perspective; the whole thing is meant to read that Vermouth has said severely depressing things, things that people initiate a suicide watch for, as opposed to mildly depressing, the kind most people ignore unless someone gets dramatic. You can't accomplish such a feat with only "depressing." Even "severely depressing" doesn't cut it, since some people see depressing as black and white; it is or it isn't. There needs to be something more to grant better definition. If you have something better, then by all means post it, or take down the citation.

Further, the one year transition is irrelevant because of my last point. The last sentence was meant to illuminate the fact that we can't actually determine when exactly she regained her youth. Her disguising talents allow her to fake such a feat, so a time limit stating when she began to look young without a disguise grants a narrowed perspective that may ultimately be wrong. The whole paragraph was about APTX 4869, I thought it was logical that "it" was referring to the drug; edit that if you want, but honestly I think it's fine as is. You can add that Chris Vineyard appeared one year ago, but you can't actually say with any certainty that's when she regained her youth for real. Posting as such is posting your interpretation of the facts.

Finally, Haibara had said that one rat shrank and that she didn't report it to the Boss. However, her father also happened to be working on such a drug, Pisco's words. She said she wouldn't continue her father's work, but we know neither when she said that nor if the Organization tricked her into continuing. This is what's called an open experiment; instead of having subjects who are kept in certain conditions, they experiment with things off the street, the varying conditions of such subjects allow them to establish things that can interact with the drug and alter its destined effect. Drug companies do this, though usually when there's more certainty that they're not lethal, and people make a killing off them. Shinichi was clearly a test of the drug, both Gin's words and Haibara's presence in his house prove this. Exactly what they were testing is unknown, since we haven't heard from the Boss on this matter. While the Organization doesn't reportedly know there was a success with Haibara t the helm, this is nothing to say that they weren't testing for such a feat, and it also doesn't mean that the drug suddenly stopped being worked on. Yes, Haibara was important to the research, but losing the important scientist has never stopped scientists and companies from continuing before. Once you again, to allow such a comment to remain up is argumentative and a matter of perspective. Which is it: are you not allowing any perspectives and just the facts, or are you allowing these and their counters up? You can't keep only one interpretation up and then take down any that disagree with it just because we don't have the time to word it perfectly and you lack either the time or patience to research, change your perspective to see if it fits, and edit it to make more sense yourself. I don't have the time to carefully word my sentences, so I need someone to edit me. I thank you for these posts since they're letting me help you edit these, but don't be hypocritical.

You make a good point on when Vermouth would have taken the drug. My reason for specifically specifying one year ago, the transition between Sharon and Chris, is because it is the time window most people have speculated she took APTX 4869 (if in fact she did). I think leaving out the one year ago is fine as well.

Your claim that several of Vermouth's quotes show a suicidal nature is entirely your opinion, and really should not be included in the article unless you provide a reference for it. That she has said depressing things is undebatable, but trying to say those things indicate suicidal tendencies has moved too far into the realm of personal interpretation. Vermouth hasn't shown any suicidal aspiration, she willingly helped rescue herself in the New York case when she could have not grabbed the railing and allowed herself to fall. She has rescued herself from other situations where her safety was in jeopardy (shipping yards in Vermouth arc showdown). Not all depressed people are suicidal. If she is suicidal, then please provide clear evidence from the manga indicating that she would like to end her life.

What I said previously about leaving it out is that you can make the same point without saying anything that is a matter of opinion, "However, given that Vermouth has said depressing things over the course of the series, both as a role she plays and as herself, it is possible she took the drug hoping to die, but was made younger like Haibara".

Regarding the last bit about the drug, while the intended purpose is unknown (see APTX 4869 and the discussion about intended purpose), the Organization is currently using employing the incomplete version only as a poison. They are not trying to experiment on people on the street to shrink them (or whatever APTX is intended to do), they are trying to kill them with it. The Org took great pains to ensure the people it was used on were dead, evidenced when they sent Shiho out to investigate Shinichi's case twice to confirm his death. (V18-9 pg 6) If Gin knew it failed to work some of the time, he would have never left Shinichi alone while it acted, and would have gone looking for him after his body disappeared if that was the case. Also, the boss, who has been stated to be cautious to a fault, would, if he knew about the risk, not let his subordinates use APTX 4869 without letting them know there was a chance it would leave people alive because if someone escaped, they could talk to the police or someone else and leak the secret of the Black Organization's existance. Here are multiple manga references indicating that APTX is currently exclusively being used as a poison.

• "We'll use this, the new poison the Organization developed. You can't find any signs of poison on the body with this stuff..." (V1-1 pg 37)
• "If I reported your condition to the Organization, it's very likely you would have been terminated before I could do something useful." Haibara, explaining that Kudo would have been killed by the Organization anyway even though he was an "interesting specimen." If the Org was field testing, they would try to capture Kudo alive. Shiho was still project manager when use on humans began, so she would know what the Org's reaction towards people who didn't die would be. (V18-9 pg 7)
• "I thought that since I was going to get killed anyways, I would take the APTX 4869 which I secretly held. To my luck, the drug that I took thinking it would kill me shrunk by body..." - Haibara telling Conan she planed to commit suicide with APTX thinking it would kill her .(V18-9 pg 8)
• "How could I understand a person who created a poison to kill people?!..."It can't be helped. It is not like it was my intention in the first place to create a poison." The conversation here pretty unambiguously relays that the current state of APTX 4869 is a murder weapon. (V18-9 pg 9)
• "Anyway, our superior has ordered us to kill him before he rats us out. Don't screw up, Pisco! If there is any complication, you can use the 'experimental drug' [APTX 4869]" - Gin telling Pisco he has the go ahead to use the drug for an assassination - a situation where it would be unacceptable if the drug failed to be lethal because the boss ordered him killed. (V24-7 pg 17)

All the points I have made so far I can and have backed with references and solid logical arguments. I have no problem with including the alternate theory that Vermouth may have taken APTX 4869 to kill herself and wound up getting younger because it is reasonably plausible (although I disagree with it). That said, it needs to be held to the same standard as the other theory; there needs to be a reference for unambiguously suicidal things Vermouth has said. The problem could also be solved if the sentence was stated the following way, leaving out the suicidal bit: "However, given that Vermouth has said depressing things over the course of the series, both as a role she plays and as herself, it is possible she took the drug hoping to die, but was made younger like Haibara".

Also, please rephrase that final sentence. (Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even need to be such a fluke that she regained her youth with it.) It is grammatically awkward, and it isn't clear what meaning is. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

APTX's status as a lethal poison and how much Vermouth knows

I rewrote the first section slightly. Much of it is the same, but here are the changes I made

1. I put additional emphasis on clarifying on when Vermouth found out APTX is not always lethal to acknowledge to possibility she could have taken the drug after she found out about Haibara and Conan. It is worthwhile to note though that Jodie, knowing about Vermouth's ability to disguise, still asked her why she doesn't age (before Shuu reveals it's her natural face). Basically, Jodie has reason to think Vermouth's aging is weird even knowing she can disguise it.
2. In the reference for knowing about the lethal effects, I removed "However, our information on the drug is limited until the end Haibara's involvement with the Organization." This is not true, information about the protocols for use of APTX were revealed during the Pisco assassination when Gin gave the okay for use in a time critical assassination where failure could not be tolerated. While Shiho can not know if any changes were made to APTX 4869 which affected it's action after she left, that isn't relevant to the point; the time frame we care about is before Shiho left - when Vermouth would have taken APTX (assuming she did)
3. I emphasized that APTX is being used as a murder weapon. Because this was a point of contention before with user Wildcardmma, I backed it up a metric ton of manga references and explanation. Keeping that in mind, it would only be proper to dispute it with similarly strong manga references and explanation. e.g. don't delete unless you provide sources.

Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:21, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Confusing

Quoted section put in spoiler boxes for space saving.

  Show spoilers »

However, given that Vermouth has said depressing, almost suicidal things over the course of the series, both as a role she plays and as herself, it is possible she took the drug hoping to die, but was made younger (like Haibara did). Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even be such a fluke that she regained her youth with APTX 4869. However, it is more than likely the work of a relatively common substance or a mixture of relatively common substances. She wouldn't have almost instantly believed Conan Edogawa was Shinichi Kudo and Ai Haibara was Shiho Miyano without some reason to believe so, but Jodie not understanding the connection between Shiho and Haibara indicates Vermouth had no physical evidence beyond their looks supporting such an idea. And while she was disguised as Araide, she had very little interaction with Haibara by the time she made her move, and had very little interaction with Shinichi and next to no interactions with Conan by the time she made her conclusion on him. Therefore, she had little to no psychological evidence (like what Ran repeatedly uses to deduce Conan is Shinichi) supporting such an idea. Having so little of either type of evidence indicates she had reason to believe such an outcome was possible for the masses. And (though this is mere speculation) this is further supported by Akai's conclusion that Haibara is Shiho, a conclusion he made after no direct interactions with her (only simple moments in passing and an observation he didn't carry out himself, no conversations) and is apparently based on her appearance, that she knows of the Organization, that she knows the Miyanos are connected to it, and that her parents are connected to the Miyanos.

There are a few problems with this section. The first is that it is extremely confusing; it doesn't make clear and concise points.

I flagged the following lines with a citation needed

• "However, it is more than likely the work of a relatively common substance or a mixture of relatively common substances." No one has mentioned how complicated the formula is. Additionally as a counter-proof, Ai has mentioned some, not all of the ingredients that are in APTX: telomerase, a component which "increases the reproductive potential of cells", and a component that induces apoptosis. (V24-10 pg 6) Although these are not the only components, these alone are far simple. The majority of enzymes are not easy to make or must be acquired at high cost. Enzymes made in house involve genetically manipulating some organism to express the protein of interest at very high levels, and purifying it in a manner so the protein remains stable (many proteins degrade easily, enzymes, with a few exceptions, are notorious for this) while keeping the levels of any contaminant proteins or substances used in the purification that could interfere with downstream experiments low. And this is just a single enzyme. Who knows what the other components are?
• "Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even be such a fluke that she regained her youth with APTX 4869.[ref]Even if Haibara was critical to its research, scientists have never been the type to stop just because they lose something, so APTX 4869 may have finally had a reported successful deaging, following some changes to the formula of course.[/ref]" - If my interpretation is correct, you are saying that in Haibara's absence, scientists may have worked on APTX to the point where it de-aged Vermouth; however, you don't offer any proof Organization scientists actually improved APTX in Haibara's absence. My point here is that I could come up with several similarly unsupported possibilities why Vermouth doesn't de-age (like maybe she is an immortal tracing back the original legend of Pandora who opened the box). Without any evidence that APTX 4869 has been improved in the interim, why is this theory any better than the myth example I just gave?
  

Worse, I can provide a counterexample, if the Organization refined APTX to the point where it worked on Vermouth, or anyone else for that matter, they would know how Shiho escaped the locked room and would start hunting for a child. So far, the Org has shown no suspicion of children. Gin himself discounted the idea when he stopped searching lockers for the person who tried to trap Vodka "Hmph. What am I thinking? An adult could never fit in there."(V38-1 pg 14)

The following line is ignoring major details.

• "She wouldn't have almost instantly believed Conan Edogawa was Shinichi Kudo and Ai Haibara was Shiho Miyano without some reason to believe so, but Jodie not understanding the connection between Shiho and Haibara indicates Vermouth had no physical evidence beyond their looks supporting such an idea." This is ignoring a huge point, Conan himself states that "If she [Vermouth], knows my mum, then she has probably seen pictures of when I was young in an album or something, and there will be no reason for her not to have seen through me." (42-10 pg 5) Secondly, Sherry was in the Organization since childhood, and they know her childhood face (Pisco case), Vermouth has been in the Organization for at least 20 years when she killed Jodie's father. (chapter 433) Vermouth was an agent when Sherry was a child and would know her face, especially since it is likely Vermouth has a connection with the Miyanos (V42-10 pg 6), and she and Sherry and know each other (Ai specifically reacts to Vermouth very strongly).
  

For the issue of when Vermouth found out about Haibara and Conan, consider what she said in Gin's car when the Pisco case was over: "I plan to relax in Japan for a while. I have something unsettling on my mind too." (24-11 pg 17) That is pretty decent evidence she saw Conan and Haibara in the party and realized who they were. You can also look at it from another angle. Vermouth targeted Dr. Araide, the Teitan elementary and high nurse, for impersonation so she could get close to Conan and Haibara. She must have found out sometime before impersonating Dr. Araide. So when did she start disguising as Dr. Araide? At the earliest, Ran reported that Araide had already accepted the position of play director at the beginning of "Mistaken Detectives". It is also plausible Vermouth disguised as Araide prior to Desperate Revival. Jodie's reference pictures hidden behind her mirror include a photograph of Dr. Araide taken at the school play indicating that Araide was under investigation then. There are also copies of Vermouth's photographs, meaning Dr. Aradie's office had been raided by the FBI and thus Vermouth was in disguise at the time. The mixed layering of the photos suggests they were acquired at around the same time. At the very latest, Vermouth was already in disguise when Jodie's introduction occured because Jodie had already raided Araide's office and seen the pictures tacked to Vermouth's dartboard.

This is incorrect

• [ref]Chapter 423, Agasa mentioned learning about the Organization through Prof. Miyano's old house and friend as well as learning of Haibara's parents...[/ref] Agasa never learned about the Organization beforehand, he only learned after following Shinichi's investigation. He met Atushi and Elena Miyano at a science conference long before he met Shiho (V39-6 pg 6), but Agasa didn't know the Miyanos had children until he took in Shiho. Agasa asked a professor friend who also knew the Miyanos about them, and the professor friend had a friend, Souhei Dejima, who was a childhood friend of the Miyanos. (V44-10 pg 8),

Finally, just in case you did not know this, the way wikis work is "anything that requires but lacks a source may be removed" (from Wikipedia's policy page). While I don't intend to remove anything that is needing citations because you and any other editors stopping by would like time to look for sources, please understand that it is your responsibility, not mine, to come up with adequate sources, or someone else could come along later and delete your lines. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 01:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Non aging section

An IP edit brought to my attention that the speculation about why Vermouth isn't aging should be more clearly marked, so I added a sub-section to explicitly mark it as speculation. If there are any objections to the labeling, free free to revert, but please discuss your reasons here. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 07:14, 18 May 2011 (UTC)