Talk:Vermouth

Page Name

I think this page should be redirected to Vermouth. Sharon Vineyard may not be Vermouth's first disguise and thus not her true name. Sharon Vineyard had a mother who died in a fire on the day of her debut. Vermouth is more general and thus less likely to need changing later. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Plot overview

If anyone want to help with the plot overview for Vermouth, please help format it by case, elaborate, and make it grammatical here: User:Chekhov MacGuffin#Vermouth timeline for Plot Overview. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 01:05, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The timeline part of the plot overview could probably do with being made into a separate article since it is well beyond critical mass. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 21:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Suicidal Vermouth

Transcribing this here from a talk page because it concerns the article.

Suicidal Vermouth

About Vermouth's suicidal things, I put the citation needed there as a request for quotes or actions of hers that indicated suicidal intent. I was hoping you could find some for the references. In the mean time, I put it back with an invisible note pending quotes/examples in the reference. The reason I am bothering is I can think of a few lines of hers that are depressing, like "My life has represents a series of misfortunes" and "no angel has ever smiled upon me", but I cannot think of any that indicate desire for self harm, so I am questioning validity of the statement that she has shown suicidal intent. Depressing for sure though. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The inclination is "almost suicidal," as in these lines themselves are a matter of perspective; they can be read that way, but they can also be read as something different. Which way is a matter of perspective and, given the more depressing thoughts, there's plenty of merit to the idea of suicidal as is the idea of a different freedom. That's why I left it listed as "almost suicidal" as opposed to outright "suicidal" and removed the sitation; I can quote a thousand different depressing lines from Vermouth and the perspective of suicidal can be argued in almost all of them. The validity would vary, but the possibility is real, be it in Vermouth or anyone in such a state. Example, I can argue Vermouth cheering on Conan's attempt to take down the Organization as suicidal; treason is punished with murder in the Organization. However, that can just as easily be read as a desire for freedom. The bigger inclination is she always kills her characters off. Sharon Vineyard I can understand, since she was popular enough to require such a problem, but even the serial killer to draw out and kill Shuichi. People disappear, some of whom want to disappear, it's sad but true (and for in canon examples we have Numabuchi and the number of almost suicides disguised as murders). And running with the assumption concerning her, apparently, nobody parents, that would be three deaths that really didn't have to happen (although they also pivot on the idea they were all simply characters and not people like the Araides). It's cleaner for her past with murder, but not necessary. Further, deaths leave evidence no matter what you do, some disappearences don't; it's seems smarter and more Organization like to not kill a fictional character under such free circumstances. While this is all speculation, this is reason to believe Vermouth has a fascination with killing her characters, killing pieces of herself. If you can submit this in some cleaner way, or would rather argue it, I welcome you to it either way. Yes, this isn't really quotes as opposed to actions, but I couldn't think of a clean and simple way to rewrite the article with this in mind. User:Wildcardmma

If you are acknowledging that her lines aren't suicidal, but instead the suicidal-ness is matter of opinion, then simply depressing by itself is enough. The same point gets made but leaves matters of interpretation out. Also, I undid some of the changes. Specifically, the one year ago is important because that is the transition from Sharon Vineyard to Chris Vineyard and thus the time frame that Vermouth would have taken APTX if she did so. Also, it is expressly clear the rest of the Black Organization doesn't know about the shrinking effects of APTX and I added a note with the explanation in the article.

Finally, the point of the following line isn't clear. "Also, taking into account her disguising abilities and the overall uncertainty concerning when she ceased to age, it may not even need to be such a fluke that she regained her youth with it." It sounds like you are saying that because she can disguise her age, she actually de-aged or stopped aging. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 19:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)