User talk:Chekhov MacGuffin/Handedness

Handedness Article

I'm not familiar with editing formats, so I'd like to make this request for you to personally handle. In the handedness article, you should include a very important detail into Akai's shooting in Chapter 504. Akai was using a right handed Bolt Action Rifle. This important because left handed people either order a left handed Bolt Action or hold them like a right handed person; the use of the Bolt is extremely awkward and difficult if a right handed Bolt Action is held lefty style, and vice versa. It could be a slip up on Aoyama's part, but it's worth mentioning since all we have is reasoning to draw Akai's hand on; it's possible this is meant to show us Akai is faking his left handedness and overplayed his part in this shooting.

Also, for the article in general, may I recommend a more detailed description of each person's movements with their hands? I noticed you discounted the possibility of Akai using a right cross against the bus jacker in Chapter 289, left out the fact that Akai was searching the fruit basket and had just occupied his right hand in Chapter 601 (unless your contention is that Akai knew right away that it was directly under the apple) and should also point out he started this search with his right hand, you left out when Gin used his phone with his right hand in Chapter 603 because he placed it in a right pocket due to the fact that at that time he needed his left hand for the laptop that was showing him the contents of the vans, and you put his assassination of Pisco in Chapter 242 as "Unavoidable," when this itself is an assumption; there are people in the world who can use a body part that's in extreme pain without drugs, so it deserves a mention if nothing else. Also, I think pointing out Vodka's watch changing hands as a continuity error in Chapter 383 is wrong because you already pointed out Aoyama erroneously had watches on dominant hands before that in the same section; it seems redundant and it's clearly Aoyama cleaning up his prior mistake. That's just what I noticed, and there may be more. - 71.126.239.180

Hi 71.126.239.180, the the handedness article is actually a personal reference page because its a bit too specific to be a real article, but I welcome any and all corrections and additions. I looked into it, (read visiting imfdb) and the Accuracy International Arctic Warfare that Akai is using is indeed right handed, which I will make a note of. I think it is likely to be a slip up on Aoyama's part (lefties drawn/pictured using righty rifles happens a lot, so I've been told), because it would be the height of foolishness for Akai to handicap himself by using his off dominant hand on a one-try-only precision shot from 700 yards. Akai has been shown to prefer his left hand in other tense short-notice-to-react situations, like the scene with Vermouth.

Regarding the other part or your request, sure I can make it more detailed, but that will take a bit of time.

• 289 was definitely a left handed strike because that was the hand Akai was swinging around to hit (this is from the manga, you can see the movement lines). If you are saying he was bringing his right hand around, that is unlikely; he was facing nearly backwards from the robber and squatting at the time meaning the rotation needed for a fluid hit with the right is impossible.

• In 601, I do think he was expecting a bomb under the fruit (he thinks as much in the next panel!), and that he was freeing his left hand to grab it. It was someone else's gift, so it isn't exactly polite to set fruit down wherever, which he would have had to do if he was using his left handed only.

• In 603, Gin actually has two radios in this scene which I should have clarified. I am assuming you are talking about the first radio (page 4) that he uses to talk to the motorcycle trio using his right hand. It's hard to tell from the art but it could be a radio connected to the dash with a cord because it has no antenna, so I will make a note that it could be unavoidable if it is corded, it would hang up on the right side of Gin on the dash. I don't see where he put it in his pocket. Gin likes to keep his hands in his pockets whenever he isn't doing anything with them, so I am not going to risk wrongly interpreting it as he put the radio in the pocket versus setting the radio down in his lap or something like that. This is especially the case if it is a corded radio.

• I put the assassination with Pisco as unavoidable because Gin had an injury that limited the actions he could take with one of his hands. The inability to grip and stabilize properly because of gross tissue damage, Conan's tranq in his system, and general pain might throw his aim (Pisco might try to run for it.) if he tried to use his right hand. He would have used his left anyway, but because the option of using his right was limited, I listed it as unavoidable.

• I plan to keep the note about Vodka's watch because it was an important clue in determining Vodka's handedness for sure - as a contrast to Gin, and I think it is important to note the point of transition.

Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 15:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks more like he's sideways to me, and if it is that's how you gear up a left outward chop, a left elbow, a right cross, and maybe a few other attacks. And you actually just made a new point for me. When you strike, you're supposed to put your whole body behind it. This could be another error by Aoyama, but it looks like more power would be given to a right handed attack with only minute accuracy errors; a right handed attack would be fine as long Akai's style isn't Krav Maga.

The point I was trying to make with the fruit basket is that it's one thing to know/expect to find a bomb, it's another to know exactly where it's located. You're right, setting the apple down randomly would be rude, but the point I'm making is that Akai got lucky and the first fruit he pulled was directly over the bomb. What if it wasn't? What would his next move have been? And how does this effect the article? That's all I'm saying: taking the bomb should be an Unavoidable, not a Miscellaneous, and taking the fruit is tough to call.

No, I was talking about the second device Gin used to talk with Vermouth, and I assumed it was his cell phone. The pocket was my mistake, I was looking at a darker scanlation and thought the seat was empty, and with his hand in his pocket I assumed he was reaching for it in there. However, my general point still remains the same: these moments belong in Unavoidable. On a few of these early pages a laptop or similar device that was feeding him the scans of the vans was on his lap, which, according to page 6, had him inputting commands of some kind (my guess would be moving between, and perhaps opening, the scans). The device he used to communicate with Vermouth is unavoidable due to where he placed it, and the device from page 4 can be considered unavoidable (regardless of any cord) since he was keeping his left hand ready to use the same laptop, and this laptop is an additional reason to suggest that even if the second was on his lap close to his left hand he would use his right hand. Additionally, putting the first device into his right hand can be attributed to the gear shift, so this is an additional moment that I think is better suited to Unavoidable.

Fair enough. However, how about including this little description? Your reasoning's sound, but since the possibility of this being optional is still real without concrete evidence from Aoyama, I think this deserves noting.

And the Vodka note was just an aesthetic suggestion. Like I said, including the previous note and this one makes the point sound redundant, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for a wiki.

Final notes on the shoot out. We don't actually know which hand Akai made the all important, one chance shot with; nobody saw how he held the rifle until after he made that shot. For fairness to bolt actions, they're famously considered more accurate than semi-automatics. For the scene (and this could be a manga's limitations), Aoyama made Akai's final shots look like they were fired from a semi-automatic, so another possible artistic blunder is worth noting somewhere. And as a word of wisdom, nothing that can be used as evidence in a mystery story should ever be chalked up as an artistic blunder before the truth it is/could be evidence for is revealed or the creator and/or staff says so.

Also, while I'm here, may I make one more request? A friend and I went over this series and this wiki, and I just noticed that a single idea we had was absent from the most logical of places on the site. Does a section or article concerning the possibility of a traitor in the FBI exist somewhere? - 71.126.239.180

Regarding Akai's strike, again Akai is squatting while facing away. He is in the middle of what clearly is going to be a left hand outside chop to the hijacker, so he must have been facing even more backwards when he started the attack. Since he was facing away from the robber and squatting, he didn't have much option for the attack.

He would have pushed the apple off to the side and grabbed another fruit.

I did list Vermouth's radio in grey which equates to no clear handedness. The reason I put it in the radio section instead of unavoidable is because Gin may have made a choice to set it down to his right in the first place instead of say, in his pocket. As we did not see the initial setup, its indeterminable, but not necessarily unavoidable. The first radio is considered handed, because he switched hands while holding it, meaning using it was not unduly handedness restrictive.

It is unlikely Akai switched hands. Switching hands would mean switching the side of the cheekpiece, adjusting the positioning of the scope from a cross eye configuration to a same side eye configuration, and then taking the time after that to recenter on the target because Akai dropped his form. It takes too long. I doubt Akai would even be able to fire back on Gin if he did all of that.

Regarding a traitor in the FBI, I think it is strongly unlikely for multiple reasons. The scope of the FBI I am considering is the group in Japan that we have witnessed. Other FBI I am not concerned about because they are not a part of the story so far.

• If there was a traitor in the FBI, Rena's holding location would have been known and thus there was no need for Vermouth to interrogate the child and act like she had found out new information - who would she need to fool when she is reporting it too her fellow Black Org members?
• Gin would not needed to deduce which van Rena was being held in. Sure, the Black Org could have followed all three at first to keep up appearances, but it was clear Gin did not initially know which van Hidemi was in and then deduced it on his own when he heard from Vermouth that Akai that was following the second van - a bluff.
• Conan appeared in front of the whole assembly of FBI during the strategy meeting of Red and Black. If a traitor has witnessed that, Conan would have been investigated if not killed ("accidentally" if that was the case) soon after Red vs. Black. If Conan was investigated, this would have likely led to the uncovering of Haibara Ai, as the people connected to Conan would be investigated. She could easily be spotted by someone tailing Conan to school while studying his movement routine for example.

The FBI traitor theory is not particularly common, nor is it is not supported by evidence so far. The wiki itself operates with an inclusion standard of strong and reasonable evidence for a theory to be included (See the Akai faked his death theory for example) unless it is particularly common and this one is not. If you want to create a personal user page of the theory with details and then ask on the main forum if it acceptable for inclusion, be my guest. That is what I did for the three theory pages that I wrote.

Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 19:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I'll concede the attack, but only cause I didn't consider that he had already turned a bit.

My stance on the fruit, however, remains. Had it not been under the apple, Akai would have used his left hand for the next fruit while putting the apple aside, and had that one hidden the bomb his right hand would have pulled the bomb up (at the same time, if he needed to move another, then we're back to his left hand holding the bomb). As such, I say it remains as follows: the right hand was his choice (and your theory on why is as valid as mine) and the left hand holding the bomb was Unavoidable as a result of the previous choice, but this was not an effort used for the bomb but an effort used for a search.

I'll agree with Gin's radios if you just include the laptop in your description - this last device was absent once again from the description, so it'd be a little premature to give total agreement.

As for the traitor, allow me to speak my mind on this subject:

- If there is a traitor, they don't want him/her compromised due to the value of having someone keeping tabs on the FBI. As such, Rena and Conan need to be something the Black Organization learns in its own time - if either (particularly Rena - after the DJ case Conan and the people around him are already sitting on the edge of a boiling pot) dies or is found prematurely, the traitor's existence is revealed and all value of having him/her in the FBI is gone; the traitor can only be exposed when in a position to destroy all files on the Organization, kill all agents connected to the case, and end their investigation permanently: since we're talking about the FBI, that means the traitor's in until death.

- You're acting off the assumption every agent who initially knew Rena's location at the end of this case are the only suspects - I'm a fan of the idea Camel's the traitor for this reason (among others - my friend falls more into the James Black idea using the above point with others).

- Twice in the Clash of Red and Black arc, Gin talked about an informant - the first was in Chapter 603, where the informant seemed to be unable to give him anything on the FBI's movements but did give Gin a back up plan he didn't want to use; the second was in Chapter 607 where the Gin knew the details of the investigation Camel was caught in. These aren't necessarily the same informant, but it does mean they had someone(s) watching the FBI even after they reclaimed Rena.

- Speaking of Rena, Gin seemed almost certain that Akai would come alone to meet with her. Additionally, when Scar Akai appeared, Gin's first thought in Chapter 700 was "Kir screwed me," not "Akai cheated death." He completely disregarded the idea that Rena was tricked just like the rest of them and instead said she and Akai were co-conspiring. - 71.126.239.180

Just to let you know you can sign your posts using four tildes in a row (~) and can indent by using colons (:).

I am not going to change anything about the fruit since we have moved into the realm of the the hypothetical. The list concerns what has actually happened as best as can be reconstructed.

Can you explain again how the laptop has relevance to which hand Gin would choose for either radio that the position of said radio doesn't explain?

Regarding the potential traitor, Gin's first informant was Vermouth looking for Akai's car. The second was someone they sent into the hospital. Gosho was being intentionally vague about the whole informant thing because he was actively encouraging the idea Camel was a BO spy up until he revealed that he was working with Akai on a secret plan instead. It is in the same vein as James Black making Akai sound like Gin in his first appearance.

I think Camel and James Black are both loyal FBI. Haibara has been in the presence of both Camel and James Black; she had no reaction. Also, Akai trusts both of them, and he has a pretty decent sense for Org and not Org - he seemed to already have a hunch about Kir before Conan told him his end of things (recall his initial quote about bait 596.4 - she can't be "bait" sent deep into the Org if she is loyal to the Org after all).

Besides, I don't know why you are assuming that having a spy in the FBI means the Black Org must act in an all (move only when able to destroy all info/agents/etc.,) or nothing fashion. Why can't the Black Org coincidentally be present for some function because, say, they were assassinating someone in the area? Or maybe someone else started investigating Kogoro for an incidental reason, like following up Gin's residual suspicions in the DJ case, and then finding Conan suspicious and encountering Haibara Ai. It is extremely easy for someone clever to create a series of plausible convenient reasons to act on info from a spy often without compromising him. For someone as important as Shiho, it is probable that action would be taken against her if there is easy opportunity to. They could arrange an accident: one of Agasa's inventions explodes, sabotage the beetle so there is a car crash, fire, hit and run...

Regarding the red shirts case, Gin had that spiel about how he was excited to kill Akai again and had Chianti and Korn set up to kill him, so saying he was unconcerned with Akai being alive does not match with the manga. The reason Gin disregarded Rena being tricked is because there is no conceivable way Akai could have survived without Rena doing something tricky - she shot his on camera point blank and Gin and the Org monitored her the whole time. He doesn't know how exactly she could manage, but Gin doesn't have to because its pretty easy to make that deduction.

There is no evidence I have seen for a spy in the FBI, and any vague suggestions, like Gin's informant line, can be adequately explained without resorting to postulating spies. Also there exists counterclaims (discussed earlier) that suggest there isn't one. Until there is some action or knowledge shown by Org that cannot be adequately explained without resorting to a spy, I personally will not postulate or base any theories on their existence because I think that is invalid and risky deductive logic.

Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 04:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Re: BlackWings and handedness assumptions

Due to the non-existence of confirmed cases in the canon, all characters are assumed to not have any form of cross-dominance (including trained ambidexterity) and are either left-handed or right-handed. User:BlackWings 17:21, 13 April 2012

I don't make any assumptions here regarding cross dominance or ambidexterity. I assume both are possible which is why I document everything to look for usage patterns. Even though I haven't included Kudo Yuusaku on this list I remember when I worked him up once, I decided there was a case for him being ambidextrous. Also there is some clear partial cross dominance going on for virtually all the characters using their communications devices because they often deviate from handedness as normal. I will add the assumption that I believe none of the characters are deliberately hiding their true handedness in the long term. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 23:53, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes you do sweety, and you successfully missed my point. The fact is both Subaru and Akai are cross dominant, but you're insisting they're only left handed. There's an ample number of cases where they both swap out their hands for more than just communication devices, and the IP person pointed some of Akai's out for you. Subaru's are much more obvious, especially after the recent toothbrush in Chapter 812: he chooses his left when he's alone and in a private setting while choosing his right when he's out in public or when he knows people are around (whether or not they are trained or natural is unknown). Both of these characters are cross dominant, Subaru a total ambidextrous (trained or natural unknown, though the ash tray and bottle in 817 as well as his rescues of the Detective Boys lead me to say natural), Akai is mixed handed at the very least (he could, and probably is, a total ambidextrous like Subaru, but he's sealed his right hand for the most part), and the assumption no one is hiding their true hand was disproven by Subaru. This was my point in adding this detail.

Additionally, moving on to more speculative arguments, you also dismissed cross dominance for Akai's sniping. Some cross dominance extends solely to certain tasks in which someone otherwise right handed can only/best perform a task with his/her left hand (commonly called mixed handedness, who are addressed as left-mixed or right-mixed handed, sometimes no "mixed" based upon the hand they use most often). This disproves your argument on why the panel of Akai holding a right handed rifle with his left hand is not deliberate on his part: even if he's a right-mixed handed, he could be better at shooting with his left, and would (as you pointed out) shoot with his left. Am I saying this is right? No, in fact I think he's an ambidextrous and that is an art error. The point is you dismissed cross dominance even though Akai is a clear case. (Also, how do you sign these things again?) BlackWings 15:09, 17 May 2012

You sign using four tildes is a row (~~~~). I understand why you are suggesting cross dominance as a possible solution, however, the reason I am continuing to reject your assertions and support that Okiya and Akai are left handed because compared to other characters with known handedness Okiya/Akai does not show significantly more right handed use by comparison that would indicate cross dominance. Making the assumption that not every character in Gosho's work is cross dominant, which is reasonable as only 5-10% of the population is mixed handed last study I saw, then I can map out where characters fall on the spectrum of handedness use and start making judgment calls based on clustering and distribution in that relative spectrum. I am also drawing from more data than is presented here. Although only the main arc characters are on this list, I have been following lots of other characters (Conan, Ran, Kogoro, Takagi, etc...) and all of them have many situations where they use their non-dominant hands/legs/eyes/etc. significantly. They are not on this list because working up and formatting just 20-30 chapters of appearances for appropriate presentation takes multiple hours. You are free to confirm these observations if you wish.

Here are my judgement criteria:

Left-handed: Left dominance with some right use within reasonable boundaries as determined by comparison with characters with known or well established handedness. (Reverse left and right to get the righty version.)

Cross-dominant/partially ambidextrous: Uses one hand more often, with non-dominant handedness occurring significantly more often than characters with known single handedness. (I haven't rigorously checked the London case, but Yuusaku seemed to be falling in this category when I scoped him out last. That might have changed with recent chapters.)

Ambidextrous: Uses both hands close to interchangeably.

In addition, there are more criteria I use to judge: tasks people normally exclusively use their dominant hand for (if they have one) are given more weight in my judgements. Characters frequently alternate hands for holding cellphones, or which shoulder they hold their bag over for instance so those have less impact than, say, dialing or operating the touchscreen or firing a gun which is more exclusively handed.

Also, I throw (grey in list) or flag (green in list) situations where handedness may be forced or unnatural, for instance Gin using his right hand to hold his gun because he had to open lockers with his left, or Akai using his right hand to grab Conan's cellphone when it could be part of a trick setup.

Akai and Okiya, when using the criteria described and eliminating forced or suspected unnatural situations falls in the left handed category relative to other characters. Like virtually all the handed characters do at various points, they use their non-dominant hand in some situations when they could be using their dominant; however, these were in the minority and not significantly outside the "definite handedness cluster." This is the reason for my judgement.

Regarding the right-handed rifle, I honestly think art error is very likely. Gosho is almost certain to have drawn that rifle from a reference and most rifles are right handed. Like most people who never noticed this detail without it being pointed out to them, Gosho may not have realized that certain features of rifles are not necessarily ambidextrous.

For Okiya around Sera, if he is trying to hide his identity as Akai from Sera, pretending to be right handed makes sense, especially if his left hand is occupied doing something else surreptitious. Cross dominance might be indicated if Subaru suddenly turned out to be a good writer when using his right hand with Sera around, but unfortunately brushing teeth and pointing are things a totally left handed person can easily fake with no prior practice.

TLDR, I will continue to reject your assertions unless presented with significant evidence to the contrary because my evaluations have shown that all characters, even known handed ones, have non-dominant hand usage. Some-non-dominant usage is therefore expected and thus using these few cherry picked moments is unconvincing unless there is a disproportionate amount of them. Okiya and Akai's offhand use fall within the relative usage limits for single hand dominance, so I see them as left handed. Chekhov MacGuffin ^talk 17:55, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

It's interesting you use the word "compare," because that's the part I have doubts on. If you do compare Akai's actions to known left-handed Gin, you'll notice a serious distinction. In fact, you don't even need to go that far, simply look at Akai's. Akai has a total of three avoidable uses of his right hand (five if we count the IPs assertion of the busjacking and the fruit basket), compared to Gin's double digits. Now, if we remove the ones where Gin may have needed to use his right hand (Ex. 504 Shushes Vodka: possible necessity of keeping the handkerchief snug with the movement of the car) or the ones that strongly indicate left handedness (Ex. 1 Right hand holding pipe: indicates the pipe went to the right when it came down, in turn indicating a left handed grip - supported by the fact his left shoulder seems more prominent), we're down to four:

1 - Opened APTX container with left hand, while pulling pill out with right

502 – left to hold radio in one panel, then switched to right hand in next panel appearance, then back to left again for 2 panels, then back to right for two panels

Bear in mind, the last one contains multiple instances, but the point is Gin had a few actions where the right hand was a choice on his part. Even grabbing Korn's rifle is indicative of left handedness, given that he grabbed it by the barrel which is where his right hand goes anyway (it's easier and wastes less time this way). However, if we apply this to Akai's list, then he loses all avoidable right handed use (and I'll be skipping the three you already handled):

289 - Uses radio with right hand (standing) (given he was looking for Sherry and aware of some Organization presence, this is easily comparable to when he grabbed Ran in New York)

608 - right hand to hold cell phone and click buttons (he most likely realized he may need his left hand to stop James again, which seems likely given that Akai's truck needed to be started up and has the lever on the right - there's no other reason for him to keep his right hand occupied and waste time)

Your list is about how they never use their dominant hand in every avoidable situation, but Akai contradicts this theory, with every off-dominant action having a reason of necessity and/or simplicity that enable it to be argued away. Likewise, there's no action from his right hand that more heavily indicates left handedness (the only one being: 596 - left hand for phone, right for binoculars; and even this follows the "awkward logic" given that Akai's cell phone was most likely in a pocket meant for his left hand). Additionally, there's the shotgun from 434. Even Captain America, Red Skull, and the real life human guinea pigs of Super Soldier Programs would struggle with a one handed shotgun blast, not to mention the one handed pump wastes time in which he can keep Vermouth covered (and we saw the direct result of wasting that time when Vermouth positioned herself to put Conan, Ran, and Haibara in the path of the shell). All I'm saying is Akai defies your list's logic, and his right hand is unique among all others as the only one used only in unavoidable actions. This is especially unique when you consider all evidence suggests Akai seems to be naturally left handed. We live in a right handed world, most appliances are specifically designed for right handed use, so most left handed people learn to use their right hand frequently and become ambidextrous by accident. Akai's severe lack of avoidable right handed action is in no way normal, which indicates he's deliberately sealing his right hand.

Also, for Akai's rifle shot from 504. The point wasn't about his handedness, it's about the note. That probably is an art error, but the note is an argument that only applies in a world without cross dominance (no matter the person) and is instantly called into question when we see Akai does everything in his power to not use his right hand unless he absolutely has no choice in the matter.

Finally, a bit off this topic of Akai, but I put "southpaw stance" back in the Sera bullet and changed "high right leg sweep" to "right roundhouse kick aimed at the head." Stances are often used as a means of identifying handedness, that's the whole reason I put the stance there in the first place and used the rest to argue against this logic and point out an example in JKD classes. Otherwise, you may as well not even mention the specific moves and just say "fought with Ran." The leg in "leg sweep" refers to the target, not the attack. Sera's movement and the fact that her leg is turned to strike with the instep as well as the power of it makes me almost certain it's a roundhouse and not a crescent. (Sorry, forgot to sign) BlackWings 00:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)