Talk:The Boss of the Black Organization

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Changing name to "The Boss of the Black Organization" from "Anokata"

I've been thinking about the page name since I am planning to feature this article, and I think it would make more sense to rename this page "The Boss of the Black Organization". It's a bit long (redirects will help), but it is more descriptive than "ano kata". "The Boss of the Black Organization" can't be mistaken for the Magic Kaito Organization's boss who is also called "ano kata" or "the boss". Someone who doesn't know much about the series or doesn't remember the Japanese term will have an easier time searching for "the boss". Across the rest of the wiki, using the brief "the Boss" instead of "The Boss of the Black Organization" makes the most sense, unless referring to someone speaking about the boss and using "ano kata" is more appropriate.

If you or someone else objects to the renaming, you are free to change it back and start a discussion about it here per Wikipedia style BOLD protocol. I'm doing it this way because usually these talk page discussions rarely get anything done or generate much attention unless something is changed that people care about. Some discussions have been hanging for months to years without decisions one way or the other. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 17:11, 3 February 2013 (PST)

Phone number vs mail address

In researching an IP's edit, I looked up the official term used. In File 475 page 3 middle left panel and page 4 top panel, Conan used the term: "ボス の メールアドレス" (Literally boss's mail address). I'm not sure whether this should be translated as phone number or email address because it looks like a phone number rather than an email and various Conan promotionals in Japan advertised calling a phone number like you were calling the boss. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 08:19, 12 December 2014 (CET)

I was the IP who did the edit, and I think we have enough proof to say it is an e-mail address rather than a phone number (in Japan each mobile phone have an e-mail address associated to it, and they use e-mail rather than SMS to send messages).
  • In file 434 Vermouth receives an e-mail from the boss and replies with another e-mail, not by calling him/her (even though she whispers "Ok, boss" after reading the message): this is the first time Conan hears Nanatsu no Ko, even though he doesn't recognize it right away; Conan even tells Vermouth that if it will look like his heart stopped then the address to which she just sent the e-mail will be found out.
  • In file 439 Conan thinks that if he had that address he could find out the boss' identity.
  • In file 470 Conan confirms that Vermouth sent an e-email, and Agasa wonders if the numbers dialed are familiar to Conan because they contain letters often used by Conan in his messages: you can't use letters in phone numbers but you can in e-mail; it's true that Conan here search for the telephone numbering plan of Tottori, but only because he found out that the sound of the first four numbers used to make a phone call to someone who lives in Tottori (0858) is similar to the beginning of the sound of the boss' e-mail address (which, as we find later, starts with #969, whose sound is similar to 0858).
  • In file 475 Conan confirms again that what Vermouth sent was an e-email and discovers that #969#6261 is the boss' e-mail address. A note by Gosho Aoyama says that in real life e-mail addresses can't have "#", but he decided that in the Conanverse they can to avoid pranks; of course if this was a phone number he would have done things differently, using a real telephone numbering plan (like 0858 for Tottori) and only using symbols that can't be used in the second part of the number to avoid pranks, but since e-mail addresses are (unlike phone numbers) totally unrelated from from where you live it doesn't matter where the impossible symbols are positioned in the number. Still in file 475, Agasa asks Conan if he sent an e-mail to the boss, which he denies; he sais that he wants Takagi to investigate that address, while Ai thinks the address is like Pandora's box.
  • In file 479, Conan is about to write an e-mail: we can read the address (#969#6261, which by mistake became #696#6261 in the anime) but he hasn't started yet writing it, and he decides not to do so.
  • In file 499, Conan sees Yoko calling someone, and thinks of the fact that now everytime he sees someone using a cell phone he is reminded of Vermouth and the boss' e-mail address, and also thinks of Ai saying the address is like Pandora's box. At the end of that file and the beginning of file 500 Conan hears Rena dialing Nanatsu no Ko and then she is called by Gin: she informs Gin that she only had a small problem which she just informed Anokata via e-mail. Still in file 500, Ai asks Conan if he is sure that Rena is from the BO, and Conan answers that she sent an e-mail to their boss and then received a phone call from Gin.
  • In file 595, Ran says Esuke told her he heard someone (Kusuda) dial an e-email address that sounded like Nanatsu no Ko. Eisuke mistook Kusuda for a colleague of his father because Ethan was a mole inside the BO, and thus sent various e-mail to an address that sounded like Nanatsu no Ko; Eisuke asked what was this sound, and Ethan answered he was sending an e-mail to "his boss" (the BO boss).
  • In file 605 James says that it is better if Eisuke gets into the witness protection program since he knows the BO boss' mail address. --87.8.35.181 12:11, 12 December 2014 (CET)
I think the problem I'm hearing from others I asked at the DCTP spoiler box is that the argument it is an email overly relies on the literal translation rather than looking at how the number is actually being used.
“ @Chek: The problem with calling it an e-mail address is that, even in Japan, e-mail addresses take the form of something@something.sth, like the rest of the world, while the boss' address is just numbers (with the # just there to ensure it's not real). If we then add in the fact that, as jimmy said, text messages (via phone) are called 'mail' in Japan, I'd call the number we have a phone number. Calling it an e-mail address certainly makes little sense. „

— Fujiwara in the spoiler cbox

The best evidence about how the address is actually being used suggests that it is a phone number that is being used for texting. You can't dial an email with a 9 digit keypad to make the nanatsu no ko sound (no .s or @s). Nor do I think it is a coincidence that the length of the number is the exact length of a Japanese phone number (9 digits for a geographic number), and has no @s. Promotional offers in Japan related to Conan (I recall one for M13) had people dial the boss's phone number to hear a pre-recorded message - which suggests that it is a phone number not an email. Also keep in mind the cellphone arc took place way back in 2003/2004, which was pretty early in the smartphone tech cycle. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 19:06, 12 December 2014 (CET)
The Italian manga sometimes uses "indirizzo di posta elettronica" ("e-mail address"), while other times uses "SMS", and I believe the former is correct and the latter is an imprecision; on the other hand, "numero di telefono" ("phone number") is never used. The Italian Wikipedia article about phones in Japan, which seems more complete on this point compared to the English Wikipedia, says (my translation) "One of the main features of Japanese cell phones is the constant use of e-mail on the consumer's part, to the detriment of SMS and in some cases even of the classic calls, especially in public places. An e-mail address is associated with each cell phone at the time of subscription to a telephone company: this operation requires a certificate of residence, an account in a Japanese bank or with a local credit card, an employment contract or the presence of a warrantor of Japanese nationality, other the the reguar passport; these requirement are similar to what is required for the stipulation of a lease. The concept of e-mail in Japan is mainly associated with cell phones, to the point that some young Japanese ignore the possibility of sending e-mail through a PC". So, we can conclude that Japanese use e-mail like we use SMS (explaining why some manga translations use "SMS" instead of "e-mail") but the phone number and the mail address are actually two different numbers: for example in file 340 Ran sends an e-mail to Shinichi using her cell phone, but in file 426 she complains about not having Shinichi's phone number because when he calls her he hides his number; she will not get his number until file 483. According to Agasa, letters can be used for e-mail addresses in Japan, but this doesn't prevent numbers to be used, I think. Plus, I don't see how Gosho could have intended #969#6261 to be a phone number, since phone numbers start with a telephone numbering plan, which "#969" is not: one thing is to start a number with a real numbering plan and then using impossible symbols like "#" to avoid pranks, another thing is using a non-existent numbering plan. You said "Nor do I think it is a coincidence that the length of the number is the exact length of a Japanese phone number (9 digits for a geographic number)", but if this is the case then Conan should have known right away that the number has 9 digits, while in file 470 he tells Agasa that the number has 8 or 9 digits. In conclusion, I think that if we write that #969#6261 is the boss' phone number we will confuse the reader, because that number has only been used to send messages to the boss, not to call him/her, and this is an important point: if Vermouth called the boss instead of sending a message in file 434, then Conan would have heard the boss' voice and would know al least his/her gender. --87.8.52.110 20:06, 12 December 2014 (CET)
  • I created some forum topics for visibility, I am hoping some Japanese speakers will weigh in. I will keep your half in the first post updated as you see fit. Just send me a notification on my talk page or at the forums if you want something changed or more stuff added or deleted. I pretty much just copied what you wrote directly. DCW DCTP Chekhov MacGuffin talk 02:06, 13 December 2014 (CET)
I hope someone can help us clarify the question then. --87.9.52.29 17:54, 13 December 2014 (CET)
Two years later and someone did clarify. "Just had a conversation about this with a Japanese guy. He says メール means both SMS and e-mail, says to send SMS in Japan you need the same contractor between the 2 phones, when you make a contract they give you a メールアドレス (e-mail address) in the form of xxx@xx.xx, SMS and calls are done using the same phone number. Can we put a rest to this and call the boss’s number a phone number? Edit: Addendum: “but after the advent of smartphone you can always use SMS regardless of the contractor”. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 20:29, 23 December 2016 (CET)

Wanted images

An IP is looking for these images if you have them handy:

Chekhov MacGuffin talk 15:14, 22 October 2015 (CEST)

File:BossBlackshadow3.jpg
Haibara imagines her former unknown boss as a normal criminal silhouette in the special manga (volume 26).
Kicked this image off the page because we have enough images of the boss of the Black Organization as it is. Galleries are meant to be informative to prevent bloat, not a laundry list of every picture of the character. That means each picture needs to tell a different story from the last. We already have four separate, highly similar, shadowmen boss pictures. We really only need one. We certainly don't need five all showing the same thing, a scary no-detail guy looming. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 04:39, 6 March 2016 (CET)
But the character design from special manga is very different from the original manga. For example, the criminal silhouettes have always a very demoniac expression. Then this image for the unknown Boss could to be edit. --79.24.235.149 10:57, 12 May 2016 (CEST)
I've seen the special manga boss images before. They look similar to all the other depictions: a generically menacing shadow dude. As I said before "Galleries are meant to be informative to prevent bloat, not a laundry list of every picture of the character." The addition of yet another shadowperson with a slightly different expression will not add new information to the article that isn't already shown. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 01:48, 15 May 2016 (CEST)
Then, what do you think to edit it in "Special Manga: Volume 26", which specifies his/her background in the special manga? --82.54.234.90 09:06, 15 May 2016 (CEST)
That would be fine. Volume pages usually have a few pictures scattered amongst the case description, (or at least they should). Chekhov MacGuffin talk 20:16, 15 May 2016 (CEST)

Indefinite locking the page because of trivial edits by a single anonymous user.

For the people who want justification for why I have locked this page to anons, there is one anonymous user who has made 308 edits since June 6, 2015. In those 308 edits, the only things that user has changed on the page are some formatting, minor wikimarkup and filename changes that don't affect the display of the page, the addition of some wikilinks, the addition of an appellations section, the addition of the shinkansen bombing case and non-canon plot overview section which I wound up re-editing entirely to make it English readable and grammatically correct, the addition of Rum to the relationships section, and the addition of a gallery. There is not a single major block of edits by this anon where I didn't have to change or fix something afterwards. Probably about a quarter of the edits were ones where he couldn't decide on a minor wording of formatting issue and so he would change it every month. There was also a slow moving edit war where I would cut out a bunch of excessively bloated content that had no business being on the boss page (at one point a single AO episode section was nearly longer than the entire canon plot overview section) which he slowly re-added back over a period of time until I deleted it again. The useful content to edit ratio is so low that it is a waste of my time as a mod to coddle this guy's unproductive edits. So heads up, I fully intend to extend the anon lock on this page until this particular anon user gets banned or bored of editing the wiki and goes somewhere else. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 17:02, 17 May 2016 (CEST)

New information

"He's the one running the Black Organization and supposed to be the Moriarty to Shinichi's Holmes", from his/her section in Detective Conan The Black Organization / Characters - TV Tropes. It could to be edit in "Speculations". --185.93.230.10 14:16, 1 Aug 2016 (CEST)

That wouldn't add anything informative. It is already stated on the page that the Boss of the Black Organization is in fact the boss of the Black Organization. "The Moriarty to Shinichi's Holmes" is an elegant way of saying Shinichi is the smart good guy and the boss is the smart bad guy. The boss being smart is already in his personality section. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 21:49, 1 August 2016 (CEST)

Too much or the wrong kind of details in the plot overview

I have had to edit certain sections of this article several times to cut back on the amount of information not directly related to the boss. The plot overview sections are the main culprits. The problem is that ever increasing amounts of detail are incrementally added about events and non-boss people until the section loses its focus a becomes a synopsis suitable for a general article like Black Organization timeline or an episode page. Background info to provide perspective needs to be short and to the point. All these little extra non-boss facts eventually add up to create massive bloat that makes the article harder to read and more useless as an easy-to-access reference. Please control information creep by fighting the desire to add one more background fact. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 02:50, 30 August 2016 (CEST)

I also want to point out how stupid it is that 400 edits later and this is all that has changed. Most of my edits in that time were purely modlike (and net negative): deleting extraneous detail, fixing bad English, reverting vandalism, and deleting unsourced info. No new information about the boss has been released in a long time, so there is no reason for this much minor activity on the page. It's just so wasteful of everyone's time. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 03:03, 30 August 2016 (CEST)
This page is in good shape and I don't see a lot changing factwise any time soon. I am tired of patrolling hundreds of frivolous edits so am I putting this page under users-with-accounts only editing restriction in an effort to convince this one persistent anon guy he needs to find something better to do with his time. If you are a user without an account (and aren't that one guy) and you have something to add, need to make a correction, or simply want to have this page unlocked for editing, I'd be happy to do so if you post here or on my user page. Sorry for the inconvenience. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 00:50, 5 September 2016 (CEST)

Why Hattori Heiji cant be the boss?

I need some solid reasons why Hattori Heiji cant be boss of the Black Organisation... Please reply me at djsamty37@gmail.com

I think we can start with he knows Conan and Haibara's secret yet hasn't taken advantage of that to kill them. Then we can move to he helped with Conan's plans against Vermouth in her arc and the BO with Kir. Hattori actually knows Kir is CIA due to his investigation results. Kir isn't dead. I think we can end with the fact Heiji's a kid, and one we have had multiple flashback memories about to be sure he really is 16~17 years old. The org is much older than him, and I think someone like Ai or Akai might have mentioned a new boss, since we can be pretty sure Hattori did not have the level of child genius and maturity needed to run an organization at 4-6 or even middle school age 11-13 years old. Chekhov MacGuffin talk 00:04, 24 March 2017 (CET)
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