User talk:SocietyBox

About Baijiu/Baiganr/Paikaru

Hello SocietyBox, wherever in you may reside in the world. I see you are very active in editing things across the wiki, and I appreciate that, as should everyone else on this wiki. As for your string of edits about Baijiu, I have some thoughts about it.

First of all, it's quite clear that "白乾児" is the name of the Chinese liquor that helps Conan and Haibara return to adult form, besides the antidote. The "乾児" part in "白乾児" contains Japanese shinjitai kanji characters and are exclusive to the Japanese language, meaning that "Baiganr", a Pinyin romanization used for Chinese characters, is incorrect. Instead, "Paikaru" should be used.

As for the moving the article "Baijiu" to "Baiganr", I would like to politely object, but not undo, this action. This is because the article is referring to the general use and appearances of Baijiu in the anime, not just Paikaru itself. Paikaru is a type of Baijiu, and the APTX 4869 prototype antidote is implied to have some components of Baijiu in general, but not specifically Paikaru. For this reason, not only do I believe the Baiganr article should be moved back to Baijiu, but also, references to the prototype antidote's ingredients should say "Baijiu" and not "Baiganr" or "Paikaru." However, "Paikaru" should continue to be used when referencing the specific liquor.

Of course, these are not any sort of mandatory commands, they are only a list of my personal suggestions and their supporting reasons, of which can be ignored. But I hope that you could maybe take these into account for future edits and continue your diligent contributions to this wiki. Take care. --Avico (talk) 22:53, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

Personally, I dislike any Chinese words being used as I only enjoy Conan in its original Japanese text/audio so I'm not a fan of using "baiganr" either. But it's still an English wiki so using "Paikaru" seems wrong. To me, it would be like calling the Netherlands "Oranda" (the Japanese name) which is just too insensitive to the readers. As for "baijiu", given there's no reference to the "baijiu" term in the manga/anime, why introduce it? That's my only argument on "baijiu". --SocietyBox (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

I see what you're getting at, but think of it this way:

On a wiki targeting English-speaking readers, which of the following would make more sense for that audience: "Netherlands" or "Oranda"?
Obivously "Netherlands".

Now, on a wiki targeting English-speaking viewers of a Japanese show that constantly and consistently uses the native Japanese name to refer to foreign countries, which of the following would make more sense for that audience: "Netherlands" or "Oranda"?
For this one, either could work, but it depends on what is used more in that show's English-speaking fandom.

Extending that logic, on this wiki that targets English-speaking viewers of Detective Conan and spotlights the original Japanese version of DC more than the English dub or fansubs, which of the following would make more sense: "Paikaru" or "Baiganr"?
That would be "Paikaru," since I don't think many people in the DC fandom know about the Chinese reading "Baiganr".

You could say using "Paikaru" is insensitive, but we would probably be more insensitive to readers if we used terms that our targeted readers don't understand. Besides, "baiganr" isn't even a proper Japanese romanization (as I've said before, it is Pinyin, which is only used for Chinese).

As for why we use "Baijiu" when it was never mentioned in the anime/manga, I think that comes down to a precedence in the community. I haven't been following the community since the start, but from what I can tell, "Baijiu" makes sense considering how long the article stayed with that name (Although, I would also argue that "Paikaru" would be a better article name). --Avico (talk) 23:50, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

"Precedence" really annoys me as I can keep seeing "baijiu" for decades and still not get used to it. But I can accept my place in the extreme minority and let you target the wiki for "the community". I can't agree with using "Paikaru" to target the "DC fandom" either, or we'd be switching the character names to "surname first name" (which I wouldn't mind personally). If there was a random (mainland) Chinese person who got popular in Japan only, I'd say their English Wikipedia page would still have their Pinyin name as the title. Likewise, if 白乾兒 deserved its own English Wikipedia page, it would be baiganr. As we're talking convention in general, I'd rather not bring this up but it does say "Bai Ganr" on the bottle. That said, I know my place and won't fight anyone on this. --SocietyBox (talk) 01:55, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

There's no need to feel discouraged like that, I gladly accept your opinion and am considering to use it for a future edit. Allow me to correct and clarify myself with some info from Wikitionary (If you find this repetitive, please skip this part):

"白乾兒" is the Chinese name for this liquor, which is romanized as "báigānr" using Pinyin ("baiganr" if you omit the accents). These characters, however, were not written on the bottle.

What is instead written on the bottle is "白乾児" (note the slightly modified last character) which is romanized as "paikaru" using Hepburn. This is what was written on the bottle and is the proper romanization.

I hope I've made this point clear: "baiganr" is not the proper romanization. But as you've pointed out, "Bai ganr" is written on the bottle (I don't know why), so if I were to contribute to this article, I wouldn't entirely exclude "baiganr" from the article, maybe mention it in a sentence or two. But it's definitely not going to be the name of the article like it is now. Whether the article is going to be named "Baijiu" or "Paikaru" is going to need some further discussion with other contributors on this wiki since we are "touching" on a precedence and I would like to respect that precedence.

Do know that I am with you on not naming the article "Baijiu" since that does seem awkward to introduce something not mentioned in the anime/manga. Let me know of any further concerns! --Avico (talk) 03:58, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

That's for the friendliness. I should start by saying I'm fluent in Chinese, Japanese and English. Just because the bottle has the Japanese version of the name (like how 中國/中国 zhongguo in Chinese is 中国 chuugoku in Japanese) doesn't mean they're referring to different things (please don't mention chuugoku-chiho) and that we should use "chuugoku" for any Japanese references to the country. Unless you're suggesting paikaru should mean specifically "baiganr that's been manufactured in Japan or imported and relabelled in Japan" (like how "anime" means, specifically, Japanese animation), I don't see your point. I can also throw in the "ramen" example which, despite its Chinese origin and considered "chuuka" cuisine in Japan, is globally considered Japanese cuisine and thus the Japanese name is most popular. Baiganr is Chinese liquor, and having the English name based on the Chinese name (or even just a Chinese-sounding name) would feel more natural to readers. Again, do what you want. There's only like 20 pages referring to it so I can just turn a blind eye. --SocietyBox (talk) 07:54, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I've just remembered and have gone back to check that 白乾児 seems to be exclusively (or nearly exclusively) used in Japan and is (or might as well be) made-up (wasei) Chinese. Still, the idea should carry over and the English name should also sound like made-up Chinese and be "baiganr". I'll also cover the only argument I'll accept for "baijiu" which is that it's the official and 100% accurate English translation of the liquor. But instead, according to Wikipedia anyway, the correct translation is "Kaoliang liquor". --SocietyBox (talk) 08:45, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I've just realised we've been discussing what the best name for the article would be when that didn't even cross my mind when I moved the article. I've been defending "baiganr" as if it was my number one preference and I never actually had one. I read the opening sentence to the article (which I haven't edited) and it sounded like "baijiu", "shaojiu" and "baiganr" were all equally valid names for the liquor and, therefore, equally valid names for the article. Given two are irrelevant to the canon and the remaining one's on the bottle, I made what I thought would be an acceptable page rename. If I were to choose a name as if I were writing the article from scratch (which is too radical and I wouldn't dream of making that decision on my own), I might actually go with Kaoliang liquor and have Kaoliang liquor (白乾児 ,paikaru) in the intro. --SocietyBox (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I'll have to check with at least one more reputable editor before I make any edits, but since you've come to that realization, I'd say "paikaru" would also be an acceptable change as well. Thanks for discussing this! --Avico (talk) 01:12, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

Hey guys! Know I might be a little late in this thread but it seems that baiganr is just a type of baijiu so there should not be any issues leaving the name baijiu. I don't speak Chinese but there is a Wiktionary entry about "白乾兒". The pinyin form is a bit cheesy so I'm leaning more towards keeping "baijiu", but of course, this is just a suggestion. --Nakamura ^talk 00:37, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

You're not late at all, Nakamura! I was planning to check with with you about this but it seems I unnecessarily procrastinated that task. Anyhow, what SocietyBox and I agree with is that baijiu was never mentioned in the anime, only paikaru. While of course paikaru is a type of baijiu, it seems awkward to introduce something that wasn't in the anime/manga (for me at least). In any case, since you're reply was only a suggestion, I assume that you would also accept the change to "paikaru"? --Avico (talk) 00:54, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

Why do you care so much anyway? I'm asking as I wasted, like, 2 hours in a debate I got forced into, defending something I didn't care that much about, only for neither of us to accept the other's points. There's pages I could have been contributing to instead. --SocietyBox (talk) 06:28, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

Avico, please create a discord account, we'll discuss this at the dcw-wiki channel thread. --BOBO (talk) 12:37, 8 February 2025 (UTC)